Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 61

Tue, 22 May 2018

• 1. Yahrtzeit Kaddish? (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Designer Babies? (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Generators on Shabbos in Israel (M Cohen)
• 4. Re: minhagim (Ben Bradley)
• 5. What is a Chasid? (Professor L. Levine)
• 6. Re: What is a Chasid? (Gershon Seif)
• 7. Re: What is a Chasid? (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: The night of Makas Bechoros (Akiva Miller)
• 9. Re: The night of Makas Bechoros (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: ? Generators on Shabbos in Israel (Danny Schoemann)
• 11. sattelite surveillance (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: Yahrtzeit Kaddish? (Zev Sero)
• 13. Making a bracha on Niagara Falls (Prof. Levine)

How widespread is the practice of reserving (through a bang on a table) one
kaddish at the end of davening for someone marking their Yahrzeit?  What is
the source of this practice? (Me - perhaps the original practice of only
one person saying Kaddish).

KT
Joel Rich



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Assume that gene editing technology reaches the point that "designer
babies" are possible to an extent.  Assume that "intellectual acuity" genes
can be identified and screened for.  Would a Desslerian philosophy allow
(require?) mass screening and eventual genetic tinkering to provide a gadol
hador material baby?  What if there was a clear tradeoff that this gene
also resulted in a materially shorter life expectancy?
KT
Joel Rich

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I know there are those that use generators on Shabbos in Israel, AIUI,
so as not to be ne'neh from chilul Shabbos.
With that, in modern electricity plants, there is so much that is
automated, it's almost on auto-pilot. So what exactly is the potential
Chillul Shabbos? Based on that, shouldn't these people also draw their water
before
Shabbos? As water treatment plants also have workers there on Shabbos.

..at least 2 major differences between the two.

A. the electricity you use is generated in real time, as you demand it (by
turning on the switch)

B. but the water you use was made and treated in the past, and now simply
stored in water towers until you demand it (by opening your tap)
(as the water is used, new water is pumped into the tower at intervals. only
a gramma). No melacha is done when you use your water


C. electricity production in EY typically involves d'orisa issurim of
burning fossil fuels, boiling water to create steam etc

D. but water production may only be an rabbinic prohibition (electric pumps
and filters, adding chemicals, etc)




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RMB wrote:
'So, nothing from Tzefat -- eg no Qabbalas Shabbos? They didn't wear
yarmulkas?

I am missing something here.'


I think the point was there was a tendency not to value or keep minhagim,
not an absolute rule. And they possibly gave different status to minhagim
which clearly originated with gedolim not un-named masses, eg kabalas
shabbos.  As for the yamulka example, that's got a makor in shas and is
mentioned by rishonim, no?

Perhaps another example would be Shir hamaalos before bentching which was innovated by the Chida I think.

You'd need a whole range of example and a list of who kept what in order to
be more certain, I haven't read the rest of Dr Brown's book to know if he
does that.


Ben

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The following is from Letter 15 of RSRH's Nineteen Letters  I note that
there is no mention of a chasid wearing a particular kind of dress, 
speaking a particular language,  etc.  Indeed,	there is no mention of
externalities at all. YL


Unfortunately, the term "chasid," meaning a pious person,
has become misunderstood because of misconceptions foisted
upon us from without.  A "chasid" is a person who totally gives
himself in love, does not look out for himself but relinquishes
his own claims on the world in order to live only for others,
through acts of loving kindness. Far from retiring from the
world, he lives in it, with it and for it. For himself, the chasid
wants nothing; but for the world around him, everything. Thus
we find the term applied to David, a man who, from his
earliest youth, labored ceaselessly for the spiritual and material
welfare of his people and left the shaping of his own destiny,
including redress of the wrong done to him by Sha'ul, entirely
to God. No doubt you are familiar with the saying shelach shelach v'sheli  shelach
-"He who says 'That which is yours is yours and that
which is mine also is yours' is called a chasid." Again, a life
of seclusion, of only meditation and prayer, is not Judaism.
Torah and Avodah (study and worship) are but pathways meant
to lead to deeds. Our Sages say, Talmud Torah gadol she'mavi l'y'day maaseh-
"Great is study, for it leads to action" - the practical fulfillment
of the precepts.

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On Thursday, May 17, 2018 2:48 PM, Professor L. Levine
<llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> The following is from Letter 15 of RSRH's Nineteen Letters I note that
> there is no mention of a chasid wearing a particular kind of dress,
> speaking a particular language, etc. Indeed, there is no mention of
> externalities at all. YL

Indeed!

See Hirsch's commentary to Beraishis 5:24 where he writes very strong
words about this. He says that Chanoch lived a life of seclusion after
giving up on his generation. Hashem removed him from the earth because
"what use is he here" (or something to that effect).

The nature of language is that meanings of words change over time. At 
one time calling a child a girl did not mean that you were assuming the 
child's gender? (girl meant a young person of either sex).
Ben

On 5/17/2018 9:48 PM, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> The following is from Letter 15 of RSRH's Nineteen Letters? I note 
> that there is no mention of a chasid wearing a particular kind of 
> dress,? speaking a particular language,? etc.? Indeed,? there is no 
> mention of externalities at all. YL

.
I had cited Shemos 12:39:

> They baked the dough that they took out of Egypt into loaves
> of matzah, because it did not become chametz, for they were
> driven out of Egypt and could not delay. Nor did they prepare
> any provisions for themselves.

R' Zev Sero suggested:

> ... my understanding is that they did not leave with unbaked
> dough but with dough that had been swiftly baked into matzos.
> I am positing that one may still call dough "dough" after it
> has been turned into bread, if one is speaking from the
> perspective of before it was baked.

It is my opinion that this totally ignores the plain meaning of the
pasuk. But that's just my opinion. If RZS wants to force those words
to have that meaning, that's okay.

But there's another pasuk we need to deal with, and that is Shemos 12:34 -

> They picked up their dough before it would become chametz,
> their leftovers wrapped in their garments on their shoulders.

This pasuk is not reminiscing about "the dough that they took out of
Egypt". The narrative is being told in real time. This pasuk is
unequivocal: Whenever it was that they packed up to leave, the stuff
they picked up was unbaked dough. Furthermore, the pasuk tells us that
the dough was not yet chametz, yet still had the potential for it.

Hence my question: If they didn't leave until morning (and I thank RZS
for reminding me that this might mean "not until noon"), then why
didn't it become chametz? I really don't understand.

The only answer I can think of is that all night long, they did not
make any dough, for whatever reason. (And if they left at noon, then
they didn't make any dough in the morning either.) But then, just
before they left, at some point between 1 and 17 minutes prior to
departure, THAT'S when they decided to mix the flour and water
together. ... Ummmm, no, I don't think so.

Akiva Miller

See Malbim, who suggests that according to R Yose Haglili, who says
that the issur chometz that year was only for one day, that one day
was the 14th, not the 15th, but since with kodshim the night follows
the day it was from the morning of the 14th till the morning of the
15th.  Therefore they started baking bread at daybreak, intending to
let it rise, but they were immediately ordered to leave and had no
time.

Alternatively, since most meforshim understand the one day to be the
15th, he suggests that they mixed the dough intending to bake matzos,
but they didn't even have time to do that and had to take the unbaked
dough, which would naturally have become chometz during their journey,
but miraculously it did not rise and when they got where they were
going they baked it as matzos (or, according to pseudo-Yonasan, the
sun baked it, which presents halachic problems of its own, since
sun-baked bread doesn't have the status of bread).

On 17 May 2018 at 23:51, Akiva Miller via Avodah
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> .
> I had cited Shemos 12:39:
>
>> They baked the dough that they took out of Egypt into loaves
>> of matzah, because it did not become chametz, for they were
>> driven out of Egypt and could not delay. Nor did they prepare
>> any provisions for themselves.
>
> R' Zev Sero suggested:
>
>> ... my understanding is that they did not leave with unbaked
>> dough but with dough that had been swiftly baked into matzos.
>> I am positing that one may still call dough "dough" after it
>> has been turned into bread, if one is speaking from the
>> perspective of before it was baked.
>
> It is my opinion that this totally ignores the plain meaning of the
> pasuk. But that's just my opinion. If RZS wants to force those words
> to have that meaning, that's okay.
>
> But there's another pasuk we need to deal with, and that is Shemos 12:34 -
>
>> They picked up their dough before it would become chametz,
>> their leftovers wrapped in their garments on their shoulders.
>
> This pasuk is not reminiscing about "the dough that they took out of
> Egypt". The narrative is being told in real time. This pasuk is
> unequivocal: Whenever it was that they packed up to leave, the stuff
> they picked up was unbaked dough. Furthermore, the pasuk tells us that
> the dough was not yet chametz, yet still had the potential for it.
>
> Hence my question: If they didn't leave until morning (and I thank RZS
> for reminding me that this might mean "not until noon"), then why
> didn't it become chametz? I really don't understand.
>
> The only answer I can think of is that all night long, they did not
> make any dough, for whatever reason. (And if they left at noon, then
> they didn't make any dough in the morning either.) But then, just
> before they left, at some point between 1 and 17 minutes prior to
> departure, THAT'S when they decided to mix the flour and water
> together. ... Ummmm, no, I don't think so.
>
> Akiva Miller
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org



-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

R' Ben Rothke wrote:

> I know there are those that use generators on Shabbos in Israel,
> AIUI, so as not to be ne'neh from chilul shabbos.

Also, apparently, as a form of protest.

> With that, in modern electricity plants, there is so much that is
> automated, it's almost on auto-pilot. So what exactly is the
> potential chillul shabbos?

R' Israel Meir Morgenstern put out an entire Sefer on this -
http://www.virtualgeula.com/Stock/Books/Show/11160 -  and regular
updates as booklets.

According to him, it's not nearly as automated as they pretend. IIRC
he did on-site research, not relying on what the Electric Company
wants people to believe.

> Based on that, shouldn't these people also draw their water before
> shabbos? As water treatment plants also have workers there on shabbos.

There are those who do that too. Check the roofs in Charedi
neighborhoods - those with huge black reservoirs are doing just that.

That said, I asked his father, R' D. A. Morgenstern shlita about
getting one of those water reservoirs and he said it wasn't necessary.
(I didn't ask him about electricity.)

- Danny

 <<By 2025, 10,000 satellites will provide constant Israeli video
surveillance of the Middle East sufficient to carry out targeted killings
of terrorists at any time and any place, former IDF intelligence chief
Aharon Zeevi Farkash said on Wednesday.
Israel?s intelligence capabilities are moving so fast that soon they may
reach a point where it can turn all oral communications that it has picked
up immediately into digital form, he said.   >>

What effect does this have on shabbat

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 17/05/18 09:26, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> How widespread is the practice of reserving (through a bang on a table) 
> one kaddish at the end of davening for someone marking their Yahrzeit?  
> What is the source of this practice? (Me ? perhaps the original practice 
> of only one person saying Kaddish).

I assume you mean in a shul where most of the kadeishim are said by 
multiple people.  If so, I have never seen or heard of such a practise 
until you described it.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

Please see

Making a bracha on Niagara Falls Part I
at 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgoo.gl%2FCT8ohf&;data=02%7C01%7C%7C312d9d0d9d5843a86c7108d5bf9e095b%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C0%7C636625607839879930&sdata=CAO%2FIULzGszY4Io1E7bD7BDzBnrECxpPQX6SlNtHF%2BU%3D&reserved=0


and

Making a bracha on Niagara Falls Part II
at 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgoo.gl%2FKVjQ16&;data=02%7C01%7C%7C312d9d0d9d5843a86c7108d5bf9e095b%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C0%7C636625607839879930&sdata=RY%2FzL7M3vLMiFdh1MlJcdiMfMVPVPkRXx%2FtVGOhRiWk%3D&reserved=0

If one is to make a bracha on seeing Niagara Falls then clearly going 
there and seeing the falls is not nothing.

YL



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