Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 34

Tue, 08 May 2012

• 1. Re: Um,...Hello?! RaShB"I Didn't Die on Lag b'Omer (T6...@aol.com)
• 2. : Re: Um,...Hello?! RaShB"I Didn't Die on Lag b'Omer (Ezra Chwat)
• 3. Re: Rav Moshe Shternbuch: Do Adopted Children Sit Shiva For Their Step Parents? (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Rav Moshe Shternbuch: Do Adopted Children Sit ShivaFor Their Step Parents? (Poppers, Michael)
• 5. Pulling the Plug (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 6. Re: Um,...Hello?! RaShB"I Didn't Die on Lag b'Omer (Lisa Liel)
• 7. Re: Um,...Hello?! RaShB"I Didn't Die on Lag b'Omer (Akiva Blum)
• 8. Re: Um,...Hello?! RaShB"I Didn't Die on Lag b'Omer (T6...@aol.com)
• 9. Re: HARav Asher Weiss - Metzora 5772: 'Kashrus Verification' (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Re: Um,...Hello?! RaShB"I Didn't Die on Lag b'Omer (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Pulling the Plug (Micha Berger)

 
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>

From  http://tinyurl.com/d7b583

....Rabbi Shimon 
Bar-YoHai [RaShB"I] did  not actually die on 18 Iyyar, the 33rd day of 
S'firath haOmer  ....


4. And, even if this were the anniversary of death of RaShB"I,  the 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Sofer>h_ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mose
s_Sofer_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Sofer)   Hatham 
Sofer was very much against the idea of celebrating on such a day.  
"Do we celebrate on Moshe Rabbeinu's anniversary of death?"

YL



------------------------------


From: Zev Sero _zev@sero.name_ (mailto:z...@sero.name) 

What is "yom simchas Rashbi"?  The Zohar
(Idra Zuta)  tells us that it was "the day that R Shimon sought to leave
the world", the  day on which his neshama became "united, grasped 
passionately,
and bound" to  Hashem.
http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%90_%D7%96%D7%9
5%D7%98%D7
%90




>  4. And, even if this were the anniversary of death of RaShB"I,  the  
Hatham
> Sofer was very much against the idea of celebrating on such a  day. "Do we
> celebrate on Moshe Rabbeinu's anniversary of  death?"

What kind of argument is this?  The Idra Zuta says that it's  a hilulah,
a day of simcha, and this is the precedent for celebrating the  yartzeits
of tzadikim.  





>>>>>>
 
In Sefer Hatoda'ah (The Book of Our Heritage) by Eliyahu Kitov (Tr. R'  
Nachman Bulman) it says:
 
--quote--
THE HILULA OF RABI SHIMON BAR YOCHAI
 
There is an ancient tradition that the demise of Rabi Shimon Bar Yochai  
occurred on the thirty-third day of the Omer, and that the day of his demise 
was  filled with a great light of endless joy through the secret wisdom which 
he  revealed to his disciples that day--and which were written down in the  
Zohar.  That day was to him and his disciples like the day on which a groom 
 rejoices under his Chupah.  Tradition relates that its sun had not set 
till  he had revealed all that he had been permitted to reveal--whereupon the 
sun set  and his soul ascended on High (Zohar Ha'azinu).
 
For this reason the day is marked by rejoicing though the day of the death  
of the righteous is a day for fasting.  Such was however the desire of Rabi 
 Shimon Bar Yochai, and many of our ancient Sages adopted the custom of 
investing  the day of his demise with a festive character every year.
 
Ever since ancient times, candles were lit, accompanied by much public  
activity at the burial spot of Rabi Shimon on Lag Ba'omer.  Rabi Ovadyah of  
Bartinora writes in a letter to his brother in the year 5149 (1389):  "On  the 
eighteenth of Iyar, the day of his death, people come from all the  
surrounding areas and they kindle large torches...."
 
The Ari (Rabi Itzchak Luria) and the greatest of his disciples and their  
disciples--who were greatly learned in this hidden wisdom--disseminated among 
 the people the great virtue of rejoicing in this Hilula.  Afterwards, the  
disciples of the Ba'al Shem Tov--who followed in the paths of the Sages of 
the  Kabalah--also strengthened this custom.  And thus Lag Ba'omer became a  
universal day of memorial to Rabi Shimon Bar Yochai.
 
--end quote--
 
I'd just like to note that pace RZS we do /not/ generally celebrate  the 
yahrzeits of tzaddikim, as Kitov mentions above.  Certainly Ashkenazim  do not.
 
I did once hear of Sephardim having a hilulah for some famous  Sephardi 
godol of yesteryear, I don't remember who.
 
ps "Eliyahu Kitov" was a pen name and in his lifetime I never heard him  
called "Rabbi Kitov."  My father called him, "Reb Avraham." I don't  remember 
his real last name.
 

--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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Akiva Blum 07 May 2012> Prof. Levin>, Zev Sero: "Leading Qabbalist of
modern times, the Ben Ish Hai confirms this notion that RaShB"I did not die
on this date,... 3. ...as does the HID"A.So claims the article the blog
cites, but it gives no reference to be checked, and I'm not about to take
the author's word for it."

Sources:

BIH: in Rav Paalim 11.

Casts doubt on printed version of Pri Etz Haim "yom Shemet". Doubts are substantiated by ms Oxford 1760 and NLI 6720: "Yom simhat".



HIDA: Tov Ayin 18, and again Brikey Yosef 493:4, as a secondary element of
Lag Baomer mentions off-hand: "there are those who say/wrote that that this
is the day of the death of Rashbi". Way out of character, he avoids
mentioning the source, which probably indicates it's Hemdat Yamim (ep
1731). In any case, HIDA backs off the idea in his later response Mar'it
'Ayin Liqutim 7:8



As we (Rav Kosman and myself) started to roll this ball (Lecture,
Convention in Honor of Halamish, Bar Ilan  4 Iyyar 2005), I did not intend
to be the-Grinch-who-stole-Lag-L'Omer. Aderabbah, it clears the protest of
CS and the day remains a day of pure Simcha- celebrating the survival of
the Oral Torah in the hands of the 4 Tannaim of the Galilee (ARI, sha'ar
Hakavanot).The life-changing, ecstatic experience Hilulah D'Rashbi (Idra
Zuta, Talmud Bavli Ktuvot 62b) has no date attached to it. Its modern-day
hyper-emphasis, fittingly coupled with Lag L'Omer is the work of the BIH
and his followers even more-so than of the Hassidim. It is likely that the
BIH, author of the Pizmon for the Hilulah "Ish Elokim", would object to the
remark: "manifestation of confused priorities". Its sheer magnitude appears
to be answering a dire lacuna 21st cent. Jewish experience.

Dr. Ezra Chwat
The Department of Manuscripts/
Institute of Microfilmed Hebrew Manuscripts
E.J. Safra Campus, Givat Ram POB 39105,
Jerusalem 91390, Israel
Tel: 972-2-6586232 fax: 972-2-6584606
blog: Giluy Milta B'Alma: http://imhm.blogspot.com




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From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>

From  http://revach.net/article.php?id=1529

Although they are technically not  related or considered family, Rav 
Moshe Shternbuch says (3:374) that if an  adopted child grew up with 
his step parents and considered them to be his  parents he should sit 
Shiva and keep all halachos of Aveilus upon their  death....
------------------------------





Linguistic issue: An adoptive parent is (usually) not a step parent.  An
adoptive parent is a parent....
 

....The adjective is instead put on the genetic parents who do  not raise 
the
child. These are "birth parents", to distinguish them from the  adoptive,
ie real parents, the ones who raise the child.

To quote R'  Meir Simcha haKohen miDvinsk, MC Devarim 28:61 (tr mine):
Even  his creation on the physical level, we find in the Torah
that  it is for the intent of his preserving the species on a
spiritual level. 
-- 
Micha  Berger              



>>>>>>
 
I'm glad that RMB clarified an important point, namely,  that adoptive 
parents are not the same as step parents!
 
I would be interested in knowing whether R' Sternbuch's  answer assumes 
that the adoptive child was born to goyim and was converted to  Judaism by his 
adoptive parents.  Would  he give a different answer if  the adoptive child 
was born to Jewish parents?  Would the child have to sit  shiva for /both/ 
his adoptive and his birth parents (assuming he knew when his  birth parents 
died)?  To further subdivide that last question:  would  he have to sit 
shiva for his birth parents if he had never met them?  Or  would he only have to 
sit shiva for his birth parents if he /had/ met  them?  Or would he not 
have to sit shiva for them if he'd met them but he  never had any parent-child 
relationship with them?  
 
If his adoptive father or mother died, would it be  improper for him to say 
kaddish for his adoptive parents while both his birth  parents were still 
alive?  To stay in shul for Yizkor?  Conversely, if  his birth parent died 
first, would it be improper for him to say kaddish and say  Yizkor for the 
birth parent while the parents who raised him were still  alive?
 
Skipping along to another, tangentially related  question:  does an adopted 
child have a chiyuv of kibud av ve'em to his  adoptive parents?  Does he 
get a reward of long life?  Does he have a  chiyuv of kibud av ve'em towards 
his birth parents?  Does he have to seek  them out in order to fulfill this 
mitzva? 
 
-----
 
In regard to "preserving the species on a spiritual  level" I will quote 
myself from an Ask the Rabbi column I wrote in 2007 in  answer to a question 
about childlessness.  (I'm not sure but I think I'm  the only female "rabbi" 
there at jewishanswers.org)


_http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/womens-issues/?p
=2638_ 
(http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/womens-issues/?p
=2638) 
 
--begin quote--
 
 
It was Richard Dawkins who coined the term ?memes? to describe little bits 
of  knowledge and information and ideas and emotions that are passed from 
one person  to another. He?s an atheist who is quite wrong-headed in other 
respects, but  this idea of his has great merit. It is not only our genes that 
we seek to pass  on, but our memes. A lower level, ignorant person may have 
no memes, only genes,  but an intelligent and educated and thoughtful 
person has a vast treasury of  memes to pass on, ideas and feelings and talents 
and areas of knowledge. There  are many ways to do this, from writing to 
teaching to being a good friend and  listener. Our genes we can pass on only to 
our biological children, but our  memes we can pass on to unlimited numbers 
of other people. 
--end quote--
 

--Toby  Katz
=============
Romney --  good values, good family, good  hair


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> From http://revach.net/article.php?id=1529 <
A timely post, given the beginning of P'Emor. 

> He adds that this is a Mitzva not a Chiyuv. <
A Kohein can be m'tamei for his q'rovim (presumably, if he's adopted, he
cannot be m'tamei for the parents who adopted him, much less for their
biological children) -- is he m'chuyav to?

Separate but related Q: precisely what aspects of shiv'a _are_ considered a
chiyuv rather than a "mitzva" or widespread minhag?  The chiyuv q'riyah
(again, something I imagine RMS would at least say is not a chiyuv for an
adopted child and may say he cannot perform [am I allowed to tear my
clothing for a dear uncle or grandparent?]) occurs prior to shiv'a, so it's
not part of the Q.  Thanks. 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

I heard a lecture from Prof. Charles Sprung, director of the ICU at Hadassah Medical Center.
He stated that as we know according to halacha, we cannot disconnect a ventilator once it has
been connected. However, he said something that sounded amazing to me. He said that it is
acceptable according to most poskim, to attach the ventilator to a timer and in that way it would
go off whenever it was set for. Am I the first person in the Avodah group who has heard this?

On 5/7/2012 9:55 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> ps "Eliyahu Kitov" was a pen name and in his lifetime I never heard 
> him called "Rabbi Kitov."  My father called him, "Reb Avraham." I 
> don't remember his real last name.

Mokotow.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliyahu_Kitov

Lisa
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On 08-May-12 5:55 AM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> ps "Eliyahu Kitov" was a pen name and in his lifetime I never heard 
> him called "Rabbi Kitov."  My father called him, "Reb Avraham." I 
> don't remember his real last name.
>
  and yet I know members of the Kitov family, even a boy, supposedly a 
great grandson, who goes by the name Eliyohu Kitov.

Akiva
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In a message dated 5/8/2012 8:27:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
yda...@gmail.com writes:

On  08-May-12 5:55 AM, _T613K@aol.com_ (mailto:T6...@aol.com)   wrote:  
 

ps "Eliyahu Kitov" was a pen name and in his lifetime I never heard him  
called "Rabbi Kitov."  My father called him, "Reb Avraham." I  don't remember 
his real last name.[--TK]




and yet I know members of  the Kitov family, even a boy, supposedly a great 
grandson, who goes by the  name Eliyohu Kitov.

Akiva

 
>>>>>
 
Yes, at some point the whole family adopted the name Kitov, and I noticed  
when I was at Har Hamenuchos that the name on his matzeva was Kitov   
("Avraham Eliyahu Kitov" I think). 
 
 


--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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Then discussion of one of my favorite topics - Chazal and statistics. R'AW
says out loud what I've whispered to my chaburah - Chazal did not engage in
statistics! First he discusses why a miyut shachiach (normally found
minority?) is of concern (why not just say rov [majority] is sufficient?) -
Perhaps because of concern for margin of error. Then on to miyut hamatzui
(material minority) and the famous 10% rule of the Mishkinot Yaakov - he
feels tshuva is misread; while it does mention 10% with some "interesting"
proofs, the conclusion is that it's just about what's "common" - and the
real problem is defining "common" in age where a shocheit may shecht 100X
as many animals in the old days. That's why we steer clear of doubt!!!!!
Oy, if only they would ask an actuary?
==========================================================
Hmm, who wrote that?  Anyway it does make me think: Given that now
behavioral economists understand we have an availability heuristic (we
predict frequency of events based on how easy it is to think of an example
- and thus can overstate risks) and examples of everything are more
commonly known (given technology changes/social networking), is it possible
we need to redefine miyut hamatzui if R'AW is correct that it is a measure
of what people think is common?
KT
Joel Rich
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On 7/05/2012 10:55 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> Rabi Ovadyah of Bartinora writes in a letter to his brother in the
> year 5149 (1389):	"On the eighteenth of Iyar, the day of his death,
> people come from all the surrounding areas and they kindle large
> torches...."

Apparently this is a mis-transcription, and the original says the 28th,
and refers to Kever Shmuel Hanavi north of Yerushalayim, not Kever Rashbi
in Meron, which was unknown in the Bartenura's day.


On 8/05/2012 3:27 AM, Ezra Chwat wrote:
> BIH: in Rav Paalim 11.
> Casts doubt on printed version of Pri Etz Haim "yom Shemet". Doubts are
> substantiated by ms Oxford 1760 and NLI 6720: "Yom simhat".

Yes, but what is that simcha?

> The life-changing, ecstatic experience Hilulah D'Rashbi (Idra Zuta,
> Talmud Bavli Ktuvot 62b) has no date attached to it.

But the PEH (the correct version) says that Lag Ba'omer is "yom simchat
Rashbi", and that he was angry when someone said Nachem on it.  Therefore
we now know when the Hilulah took place.  Unless you want to posit some
other event in his life, which is completely unknown to us, but that was
*more* significant to him than this one.  Occam's razor is enough to pour
cold water on that idea.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 07:49:36AM -0400, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
:                                                          He said that it is
: acceptable according to most poskim, to attach the ventilator to a
: timer and in that way it would go off whenever it was set for. Am I
: the first person in the Avodah group who has heard this?

The nearest I heard of is that if the machine has to be off for
maintenance or other reasons, it needn't be reconnected. The difference
between doing something that kills and passively allowing death.

See the Tzitz Eliezer's (13:89) analysis of the Rama.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 31st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Hod: What level of submission
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      results in harmony and balance?


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