Avodah Mailing List

Volume 29: Number 34

Wed, 07 Mar 2012

< Previous Next >
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 07:19:46 -0800
[Avodah] chayav livsumei

i can't recall the conclusion to last yr's discussion of when to drink and 
sleep--is it integral to the seudah--and if it is , doesnt that imply real 
early seuda , so one sleeps on purim after the seuda in his stupor; or is 
it drinking before the seudah,sleep/stupor befor the seudah , risking not 
being awake for the seuda...

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 2
From: Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:39:24 +0200

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 5:46 AM, <T6...@aol.com> wrote:

> **
> "Rosh Hashanah--Its Significance, Laws, and Prayers: A Presentation"
> The ArtScroll book introduction has this paragraph, defining the Mishna's
> "sea dog" (kelev hayam) as a walrus. (A recent speaker I heard said the
> kelev hayam is a seal.)

>  It usually sleeps on land.   Does it have enemies in the water?  Does it
> run to land when chased?

I would assume that its natural predators include both sharks and polar
bears. http://www.seals-world.com/seal-predators.html
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 18:55:28 +0200
[Avodah] poignant question

<< Last night at the chevra kadisha seuda a lady who is already a
asked me a somewhat sad question. She told me that both her  parents had
died within nine months, when she was 14 years old, and they had not  had a
tahara. In fact they had had open caskets with a public viewing (which of
course we would consider a bizayon). She asked me if this meant that her
parents  could not rest in peace? A poignant question. >>

A few years ago I was at a funeral in Jerusalem where a man's body shipped
from Chicago was mixed up with a Moslem women also brought in from the US.
Right before the burial the mistake was found and eventually the bodies
exchanged (the idiot at the airport couldn't understand why he got 2 calls
of mistakes on the same day).

We asked someone why this person (a religious Jew) would suffer through
this bizayon. The answer he gave was that this would be a kapparah for the
niftar. Hence, while an open viewing can be viewed as a bizayon, one can
also say that the bizayon acts as a kapparah

King Chizkiyahu did six things: concerning three of them [the Sages] agreed
with him, and concerning three of them, they did not agree with him.

He dragged his father's bones on a litter of ropes, and they agreed with
him; he broke in pieces the brazen serpent, and they agreed with him; he
concealed the book of remedies, and they agreed with him.


Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 19:08:05 +0200
[Avodah] drinking and getting married on Purim

In spite of the title I did not imply any connection between getting
married and getting drunk

I heard a very similar shiur both on friday and on sunday so it must be the
latest in shiur on Purim.
Condesing an hour shiur into a few lines:
The SA paskens that one can get married on Purim. MA disagrees saying that
one is mixing one simcha with another.
To explain the SA one looks carefully at Rambam who says that one should
drink during the meal (and fall asleep).
Thus, it seems that there is no special simcha on Purim and so no special
meal Purim at night (just add a little).
Tachanun is not said on many days without simcha. The only simcha on Purim
is during the meal. Hence, there is no
problem getting married (not in the middle of the meal !) as there is no
special simcha at other times.
The wedding meal and the Purim meal can then be combined just as was the
custom to have a wedding late friday before shabbat
and then combine the wedding feast wit the shabbat meal and so save the

According to this there is no mizva to drink Purim night or even during the
day except for during the meal itself.

It is noted that RSZA got married on Purim. At that time he was a budding
talmid chacham but not yet a posek. However, the mesader kiddushin was
haRav Kook.
So it seems that the actual halacha is not SA against Magen Avraham (I dont
know if today weddings are done on Purim in EY - the excuse of saving
expenses is a little less relevant)

Purim sameach

Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 5
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 22:06:57 +0200
[Avodah] tachanun

I have trouble understanding the days that tachanun is not said.
On one hand we dont say in the house of a mourner OTOH we don't say it when
a chatan is in shul (note the difference between a mourner and a groom)

R. Amram Gaon brings that the cistom in the 2 yeshivot was to say tachanun
on Purim because it is a day of miracles and so we pray for the future. The
Tur brings R. Amram Gaon and notes that the custom is not to say Tachanun.

What is the argument? R. Amram Gaon implies that it is especially important
to say Tachanun on Purim as a prayer while we don't say tachanun because it
is a day of  simchah, is there something deeper?. We then go the extra step
and don't say tachanun all of the month of Nissan and Tishre after YK.

Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 6
From: "Chanoch (Ken) Bloom" <kbl...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 18:26:32 -0500
Re: [Avodah] evolution [was: Clear Thinking about Male

On Wed, 2012-02-29 at 22:36 -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> From: "Chanoch (Ken) Bloom" <kbl...@gmail.com>
> >>Please name some specific physical/biological processes that would
> be
> required by macroevolution, which are not required by
> microevolution....
> Once we determine specific processes necessary for macroevlution, we
> can
> search to see whether evidence of that process has been reproduced
> experimentally on a microevolution timescale. For example, one might
> propose that speciation events (where a species whose members could
> all
> interbreed splits into two species that can only interbreed within
> their
> new species) are example of such a process. To which I could answer
> that
> there is a long list of experiments that have observed speciation
> events
> at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html  <<
> >>>>>>
> The article you linked to is long but very interesting and relevant to
> this discussion.  It starts by showing how many different definitions
> there are for "species" and how difficult it is to determine whether
> two birds or two fish or two ears of corn are different species or
> different varieties of the same species.
> It then gives many examples of "new species" that have been observed
> as they came into being in nature or as they were created in the lab.
> In each of these cases, some kind of hybridization occurred and the
> new species contained only old genes from its progenitors, not brand
> new spontaneously occurring genes or features.
> You want to know what biological process would be required by
> macroevolution that would not be required by microevolution.  The
> answer is:  something brand new.  Brand new mutations.

I chose speciation as my example, becuase it's usually considered the
harder thing to demonstrate. The presence of new mutations that makes an
animal more fit (and wind out in evolution) has occurred in more
experiments than speciation. One particuarly unambiguous example is
Richard Lenski's E. coli evolution experiment, where E. coli evolved the
ability to take advantage of a whole new source of nutrients, and Lenski
was able to prove that it was the result of a series of mutations, when
the new mutation turned on the new nutrient pathway, and only then was
there a positive evolutionary effect.

> Darwin believed that evolution happened by random mutations, and that
> is what modern Darwinists believe too.  He knew only gross anatomy,
> scientists today know genetics and would say that the random mutations
> happen at the genetic level.  
> For evolution to work according to the theory, you couldn't have birds
> having bird babies forever and grasses having grass babies forever.
> You'd have to have some process whereby entirely new features appeared
> that had never before been seen.  The accumulation of these tiny but
> entirely new changes, over time, would turn dinosaurs into birds,
> forelegs into wings, blind creatures into sighted creatures, water
> creatures into land creatures.
> In nature, random genetic mutations are almost always harmful and
> inimical to the survival of the individual.  Think of serious birth
> defects, defects in the creature's ability to breathe or to digest
> food or to move normally.  It is hard even to think of a random
> mutation that improves the functioning of an individual. 

But there are enough of them that it does occasionally help, and does
last from generation to generation.
And besides that, a lot of the evolution that it takes to make wings on
a bird that can fly aren't inventing totally new structures -- they're
reconfiguring the proportions of the existing skeleton.


Go to top.

Message: 7
From: Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:22:08 +0200
[Avodah] Kitniyot

Has anyone heard that an ashkenazi  is not allowed to eat rice flour based
products on pesach even if they are cooked with all the halachot of wheat

Kol tuv,
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 09:49:28 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Kitniyot

On Tue, Mar 06, 2012 at 01:22:08PM +0200, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: Has anyone heard that an ashkenazi  is not allowed to eat rice flour based
: products on pesach even if they are cooked with all the halachot of wheat
: matza?

See the thread on "Shmurah Kirniyos"

RYGB noted that the SA haRav (453:5) says it's okay.

RYZirkind writes that there are a number of posqim either way, and faxed
in the Pisqei Teshuvos at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/piskeiTeshuvah.pdf>. (Warning,
not the highest res fax in the world.)

R' Dov Bloom paraphrased R' Zevin, Modaim beHalakhah, starting on pg 259.
The Chasam Sofer teshuvah 123 allows qitniyos matzah only under certain
conditions. The Binyan Tzion haChadashos is more meiqil, and the Chayei
Adam kelal 127 outright permits in black-and-white.

Adding my own 2 cents: the CA might be reflecting Litta's relative
lenient version of the minhag qitniyos, in line with those Litvishe
qehillos that ate peanuts on Pesach because they weren't specifically
included in the original minhag, and those that permitted mei qitniyos.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Brains to the lazy
mi...@aishdas.org        are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org   a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Bechinas HaOlam

Go to top.

Message: 9
From: cantorwolb...@cox.net
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 10:37:16 -0500
[Avodah] Egel Zahav

I have the following question.
If the people believed Moshe was dead and therefore they needed another leader,
why didn't they ask Aharon to be their leader instead of the egel? OR, why wouldn't
Aharon OFFER to lead them, rather than make an idol? Even though he had great
humility, his being a leader (even for a day or less since he knew Moshe was returning),
would be preferable to their sin.

Go to top.

Message: 10
From: eli neuberger <eli.neuber...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:22:55 -0500
[Avodah] Mordechai Hatzadick

Can someone please tell me where Mordechai Hayehudi is referred to in
Chazal as Mordechai Hatzadick?

Eli Neuberger

Go to top.

Message: 11
From: Yitzchok Zirkind <yzirk...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:40:57 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Mordechai Hatzadick

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:22 PM, eli neuberger <eli.neuber...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Can someone please tell me where Mordechai Hayehudi is referred to in
> Chazal as Mordechai Hatzadick?

Megilah 10b

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

Go to top.

Message: 12
From: Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:42:10 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Egel Zahav

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 5:37 PM, <cantorwolb...@cox.net> wrote:
> If the people believed Moshe was dead and therefore they needed another...

They had already killed Chur.

Another possible reason is because leadership has to come from Hashem. If
Aharon had taken over the reigns here, then Korach would have had a
legitimate claim later.

Go to top.

Message: 13
From: Saul Guberman <saulguber...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:40:03 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Egel Zahav

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:37, <cantorwolb...@cox.net> wrote:
> If the people believed Moshe was dead and therefore they needed another
> leader, why didn't they ask Aharon to be their leader instead of the egel?
> OR, why wouldn't Aharon OFFER to lead them...

Take a look at the text.  http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0232.htm#4
They asked for a "God" to lead them.  Which begs the question of why an
egel is what was the result of this.

Rav Etzshalom has an interesting insight in this weeks shnayim Mikra.



Go to top.

Message: 14
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 16:29:46 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Egel Zahav

In previous years I gave a middle theory (based on the Kusari 1:97):
They asked Aharon to "make for us gods that will go before us, for the
man Moshe..." They wanted to replace man, being fallible (having not
returned when he was supposed to) with a messenger God. A minor deity
who would carry their prayers up to the heavens, and blessings down to
them. Much like Mercury.

Recall that bulls in those days were harnessed. Agalos / eigel.

This then grew into a whole theory about the Egyptian cult of Apis,
with its Temple with bull in front on either end of the country,
Yerav'am's two Temples with bulls, the similarity between Aharon's
"eileh elohekha yisrael" with Yerav'am's "zos elohekha yisrael", between
Apis and Yerav'am's religion both having their main holiday on the full
moon of Marcheshvan, the Chaldeab messanger-god Kirub, who was a bull,
lehavdil the keruvim, the chayos -- one of their faces is described
by Yechezqel in one place as being that of an ox, and in another,
a keruv... and finally the whole ball of wax became:

AZ is often the worship of angels (as per the Rambam's Hil AZ 1:1), and
the eigel was an attempt to make for themselves a keruv as a holdover from
Egyptian religion. An idea that never died through bayis rishon. The idea
that the BHMQ wasn't a place where one is elevated toward G-d, but a
place of ritual where one can get messages to Him and blessings from Him
without personal sanctity. A proxy and a middleman, rather than trying to
acheive personal closeness.

See http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2007/06/angels-and-idols.shtml

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Go to top.

Message: 15
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:19:00 -0600
Re: [Avodah] Egel Zahav

On 3/6/2012 9:37 AM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> If the people believed Moshe was dead and therefore they needed another leader,
> why didn't they ask Aharon to be their leader instead of the egel?...

The explanation I heard for Aaron's agreeing to make the egel was that 
they only gave him the choice of making the egel or being killed like 
Chur.  Why were those the only choices?  Because they were hysterical.

Go to top.

Message: 16
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 05:29:58 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Parshas Ki Sisa: Rav Shimon Schwab - Mordechai's

What does this mean? When was this true?

On 3/4/2012 9:03 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> The only true freedom is breaking free from the pressures around us to 
> serve Hashem with purity. This freedom can be achieved anytime and 
> anywhere under any circumstances.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai


Avodah mailing list

End of Avodah Digest, Vol 29, Issue 34

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

You can reach the person managing the list at

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

< Previous Next >