Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 77

Tue, 19 Feb 2008

• 1. Re: assisted suicide (hlampel@koshernet.com)
• 2. From Areivim: zayin Adar (saul mashbaum)
• 3. Re: Tetzaveh "Be Careful What You Wish For" (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. humility (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: humility (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 6. Re: Shitat haRav JB Soloveitchik on Women Making Kiddush for Community (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 7. Re: humility (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Yismach Moshe (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Tetzaveh "Be Careful What You Wish For" (Michael Makovi)
• 10. Re: humility (Michael Makovi)
• 11. Tetzaveh "Be Careful What You Wish For" (SBA)

Subject: [Avodah] assisted suicide

Gershon Seif <gershonseif@yahoo.com> wrote on Thu, 24
Jan 2008:

> My wife (who is a lobbyist for Agudah) was in
Madison, WI yesterday to join a long list of
people/organizations who came to voice their
objection to a proposed bill to allow physician
assisted suicide.

> Some of the people who spoke in favor of the bill
tried to show how Shimshon would have been in favor
of assisted suicide. 

> Can you all help me out here with some mareh
m'komos about Shimshon and suicide? I know it's
discussed (maybe even a mefurishe Gemara) but I don't
recall where.

> What are the basic chilukim between Shimshon's
situation and a person suffering from a teminal
illness, that would allow him to do what he did, and
yet forbid assisted suicide? 

> My first hunch is that by Shimshon it was only a
grama. And it might even be a safek, whereas what the
assisted suicide wants to allow would be a vadai and
quite direct.<
-------------------


for my copy of "Samson's Struggle," by Rabbi Gershom
Weiss (Mesivta of Staten Island), and I finally found
it (while looking for something else, of course). As
I thought, he does address this issue (p. 153).

He relates this to the Shach on Yoreh Deiah siman
157, which states that all authorities permit a
tsaddik to insist on obeying even the lightest 
mitzvah or minhag at the cost of his life if he sees
that his generation is lax in that area, and the
people will thereby learn to love and fear Hashem
with all their hearts.

We can conjecture that Shimshon applied this concept
broadly to permit taking one's own life if this would
result in the avoidance of a great Chillul Hashem.
The pesukim (Shoftim 16:22-23) are clear that the
Philistines viewed their capture and blinding of
Shimshon, the leader of the Jews, through whom Hashem
 performed miracles, as a victory of their gods over
Hashem. (The governers of the Philistines gathered to
offer a great sacrifice to their god Dagon and to
rejoice. They said: Our god has given Shimshon our
enemy into our hands. And the [other] people saw him
and praised their gods, by saying: Our gods have
given our enemy into our hands... A terrible Chilul
Hashem.)

Rabbi Weiss writes: There was no greater need at that
moment than to sanctify G-d's Name by showing that
idols have no power.

We do not necessarily posken as the
characteristically independent-minded Shimshon did,
but even his application of the Torah's concepts
would not advance approval for physician assisted
suicide on lesser grounds than his.

Zvi Lampel

RTKatz wrote (on Areivim)
<As to Moshe Rabbeinu's birthday and yahrzeit, IIRC Sefer Hatoda'ah says  he died (and was born?) in Adar Rishon of a leap year.>

REMTeitz: responded (there)
>>
      According to Rashi on Yehoshua 1:11, it was on the day of "vayit'mu
      y'mei aivel Moshe," the day shloshim ended, that Yehoshua announced
      the crossing of the Yarden three days hence.  As the pasuk tells us,
      that crossing was on the 10th of Nissan.	Ergo, Moshe's p'tira was
      either in a non-leap year or in Adar II.
>>
Unsurprisingly, both opinions appear in our tradition; baanu l'machloket R.
Yehoshua v' R. Elazar HaModai.	See  Yalkut Shimoni Yehoshua 5.  R.
Yehoshua says here that the mahn was eaten for 40 days after the death of
Moshe, 7 Adar-16 Nissan (see Rashi on Yehoshua 1:10, not only 11). In the
same midrash, R. Elazar Ha Modai says the mahn was eaten for 70 days after
the death of Moshe, since Moshe was niftar on 7 Adar Rishon of a leap year.
This opinion is quoted in Sefer Hatodaah, as RTK indeed recalls correctly,
Volume II, page 106, in the three volume Hebrew edition I have (nothing
there about the year he was born). Sefer Hatodaah cites this opinion in
support of the minhag of some chevrot kadisha to observe 7 Adar in Adar
Rishon, as is apparently the practice in NMB.
See the Radak to Yehoshua 3:2, who discusses the subject of the date of
death of Moshe at more length. The Radak there cites a tannaitic  opinion
that Moshe was not niftar on 7 Adar at all, but on 7 Shvat. This is the
opinion of R. Eliezer in the Yalkut cited above; he agrees with R. Elazar
haModai that the mahn was eaten for 70 days after the death of Moshe, but
says it was 7 Shvat - 16 Nissan, that year *not* being a leap year. 
That Moshe died on 7 Adar is an interesting example of "famous" statements
of chazal that "everyone knows" and are widely assumed to be an undisputed
part of our mesorah which are in fact the subject of differing opinions in
chazal. 
I mentioned the Hebrew edition of Sefer Hatodaah because of course, as most
of us know, there is a three-volume Englsh translation of this superb work,
called "The Book of Our Heritage", by none other than RTK's father, R.
Nachman Bulman zt"l. RTK has mentioned on this forum that R.Bulman was not
only the translator of R. Eliyah Kitov's work, but a  personal friend of
his. This is also mentioned in the charming autobiographical "Tea with the
Rebbetzin" by Toby's mother, Rebbetzin Shaindel Bulman, pp 88-89. Indeed,
the Rebbetzin mentions there that RNB used to read (translating) Sefer
Hatodaah to his family during the Friday night and Shabbat morning meals
when the Bulman children were young
Saul Mashbaum
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From: Cantor Wolberg _cantorwolberg@cox.net_ (mailto:cantorwolberg@cox.net) 

>>Regarding the pasuk where Moshe tells HaShem "And now if You  would  
forgive their sin -- but if not, erase my name from Your book  that You  
have written," and my comment: It seems strange to me that  for someone  
who was considered to be the most humble Biblical  character of all  
time, had the chutzpah to say to the Almighty: "If  you don't forgive  
them, then count me out." It sounds like a  threat.

Two postings were quite defensive about my use of the word  "chutzpah."  
It's funny how the same people had no problem in  describing the  
chutzpah of Miriam toward her parents (with chazal  justification, I  
know). The objections raised to the term chutzpah is  lovely d'rash,  
but it's not [p'shat]<<

....Simply put,  who is any man to give God an ultimatum. 
 
>>>>>
Miriam's "chutzpa" was the kind of imploring,  wheedling behavior a charming 
child might show towards a doting  parent.
 
As for "Mecheini na misifrecha" I just don't know how it's possible to read  
that as a "threat" or an "ultimatum."  He said, "Please erase me from Your  
book."  He didn't say, "If you don't do what I want, I will erase myself  from 
Your book."
 
I believe that what I wrote IS p'shat.




--Toby  Katz
=============





**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.      
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rach
el-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
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<<It seems strange to me that for someone
who was considered to be the most humble Biblical character of all
time, had the chutzpah to say to the Almighty: "If you don't forgive
them, then count me out." It sounds like a threat.>>

Sorry I don't understand the question. The Hebrew "anav" does NOT mean
modest in the sense of not asserting oneself. Moshe defends the Jewish
people assertively and acts like a leader. He does not eat humble pie
and he is not a nebish.

"Anav" implies a realization that one's powers come from G-d and imply
more of an obligation than a privelege. There are several Gemarot
where people claim they are an "anav". Obviously they are not claiming
that they are nothing

From Wikipedia

As illustrated in the person of Moses, who leads the nation of Hebrews
out of slavery in Egypt and to the "Promised Land", humility is a sign
of Godly strength and purpose, not weakness. Of this great leader, the
Bible states, "Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone
else on the face of the earth" (Numbers 12:3, NIV).


-- 
Eli Turkel

R' Eli Turkel:
> Sorry I don't understand the question. The Hebrew "anav" does NOT mean
> modest in the sense of not asserting oneself. Moshe defends the Jewish
> people assertively and acts like a leader. He does not eat humble pie
> and he is not a nebish.

There is a very interesting Ohr Hachaim (this week's Parashah, Shemos 32:15,
based on a Medrash in Devarim Rabbah) that explains that Moshe did not
"turn" as he left the mountain (many Mefarshim consider it impossible that
Moshe turned his back on Hashem), but that he "turned" himself, changed his
frame of reference. To Hashem he minimized the Aveirah of the Golden Calf,
pleading that Hashem shouldn't get angry, what will Egypt say, etc. But when
he came to the people he told them Atem Chatasem Chata'ah Gedolah, etc. Just
another datapoint on Moshe Rabbeinu's leadership. 

> "Anav" implies a realization that one's powers come from G-d and imply
> more of an obligation than a privelege. There are several Gemarot
> where people claim they are an "anav". Obviously they are not claiming
> that they are nothing

I'm not sure what to do with that Gemara (I only remember one, K'gon Ana -
IIRC the Mefarshim all talk about it there), but I don't think that what you
write is so simple. If you look, for example, at Ruach Chaim 4:1, R' Chaim
Volozhiner uses Moshe Rabbeinu as an example of Anavah, and quotes Ramban
that when Moshe said Shlach Na B'yad Tishlach he meant, "I am the lowest of
them all!" He begins the paragraph saying: V'hinei Ikar Anavah Lo L'vad...
Ki Im She'gam B'lvavo Yachshov She'eino Nechshav L'klum Neged Hapachos
She'b'anashim...

KT,
MYG 

R' Aryeh Frimer:
> Has anyone seen the shita of the Rov cited anywhere else, or any
> halakhic
> discussion regarding Women Making Kiddush for Community?

Divrei Torah Aniyim B'makom Echad V'Ashirim B'makom Acheir. I was looking
for some source material regarding She'hechiyanu tonight, and I bumped into
a Shiur from R' Herschel Schachter
(http://www.yutorah.org/showShiur.cfm/711851/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter
/Hilchot
_Tefillat_haDerech,_Shehechiyanu or http://tinyurl.com/2pw7fa) and he talks
over there about a woman being Motzi her husband in Tefillas Haderech, and
IIRC, also mentions Kiddush (in the context of Tavo M'eirah). I only heard a
few minutes of the Shiur, and it is a static-y recording, but it is possible
that you might find something useful there.  

KT,
MYG

I recently restrung a collection of blog entries
(<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/category/anavah> plus background info to
compensate for their lack of yeshiva background) into a teleconference
shiur for The Mussar Institute (a group RYGB recently referred to,
Alan Morinis's students).

Here's the rashei peraqim, with links to the blog entries:

1- Anavah is a "mah Hu ... af atah ..." of tzimtzum. This is why the
mal'akh speaks to Eliyahu hanavi while Eliyahu seeks nevu'ah in the
wind, crash and fire, but Hashem's "Voice" is a qol demamah daqah.
Similarly, RYBS speaks of Moshe first seeing a "seneh bo'er ba'eish"
and hearing a mal'akh, but then turning for a second look and seeing
an "eish besokh haseneh" -- the eish is metzumtzam -- and then hearing
HQBH beAtzmo.
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/01/fire-within-bush.shtml>

I suggest this is for two mutually inclusive reasons:
1- The anav mikol adam leaves more "room" for Hashem's call. Someone
who only wants to hear his own ideas can't be a good navi.
2- Anavah reflects an internalization of how the Borei relates to the
beri'ah. With that greater understanding of HQBH comes a greater
ability to hear what He is saying.


2- Anavah requires a balance between overestimating and
underestimating oneself. Underestimation leads to bragging, to
bolstering or covering up one's sense of insufficiency. As Shaul
confesses to Shemuel, he listened to the masses' desire for Amaleiq's
booty rather than leading because of a lack of backbone, of the
self-confidence necessary of a melekh. OTOH, Yehoash overestimated his
success at kiruv, and thereby lost everything.

Esther starts out following her ancestor Shaul's path, until Mordechai
challenges her "im la'eis kazos higat lemalkhus".

Which (as I wrote here in an exchange I turned into
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2007/03/esthers-modesty-adars-
joy-anavah-and-anvanus.shtml>,
a/k/a <http://tinyurl.com/2w83ha>) serves as an interesting contrast
to the role of "anvanuso of R' Zecharia ben Avqulus" in the story of
Qamtza uvar Qamtza. And note that one leads to marbim besimchah, and
the other to mimaatim besimchah.

But the masqanah I try to draw from these examples is that anavah
appears to be defined in terms of "im la'eis kazos higat" -- knowing
that one plays a critical role in the Beri'ah, a unique role that
determines my kishronos and personality, the time and place HQBH
places me, everything. But, a role in a whole. A whole new layer to
"besoch ami anochi yosheves".


3- There is a vort attributed to the Alter of Slabodka or R' Zushia,
depending upon the circles you hear things from. The rebbe advises his
talmidim to keep a card in each pocket. On one side, bishvili niva
ha'olam. In the other, va'anochi afar va'eifer.

This can also be used to explain how Hil' Yesodei haTorah pereq 1 is
all about the shevil hazahav, but pereq 2 tells us to be extreme when
it comes to anavah (and lack of ka'as).

Perhaps we can say that anavah isn't a qatzeh, but itself the shevil
hazahav between the shefal ruach and the baal gaavah. It's not
va'anokhi afar va'eifer, it's having both cards in one's pockets. Not
a shevil hazahav in terms of the midpoint, but in terms of a blend of
both extremes.


4- The person who always seeks the same maqom kavuah is called
mitalmidei Avraham avinu and an anav. How is this anavah? Perhaps
because the anav knows his place, his role in the big picture.

RYGB once posted a thought from RSRH, that "anavah" comes from
"la'anos". The navi's ability to listen to HQBH and respond. Listening
to another when they talk instead of spending the whole time planning
what you're going to say next. Truly responding.

Which is the only way to be part of the bigger picture. Yehoash
failed, and fell to Mitzrayim, because he didn't "listen" to the
situation. Shaul failed because he listened when he should have been
contributing.

The anav is someone who is metzamtzeim to allow everyone else to play
their role (an imitation of the Borei doing so for all of us) so that
he can correctly respond and play the one the RBSO planned for him.


And so in our context, Moshe's anavah was accentuated, not defied, by
acknowledging that his role is tied to where Kelal Yisrael was going.
If they failed and the project canceled, MRAH had no place in HQBH's
book because he was a piece in a different picture.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

PS: No, I was not comfortable dwelling on the subject of tzimtzum to
an audience that doesn't understand the basics. It was a measured
decision that they would respond to the notion of anavah more readily
if I pointed out the "mystical" aspect.

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, February 19, 2008 8:04 am, SBA wrote:
::  Yismach Moshe, but MRAH too is
:: described as being sameiach with something else "bematenas chelqo",
:: not simply because it's Shabbos.

: There are 2 pshatim for Moshe's Simcha.
: 1) "Ki eved neeman koroso lo" ie, that Hashem called him His faithful
: servant.

: Or 2) Referring to the Midrash which relates that while still in
: Paroy's house he saw how the Jews were laboring 7 days a week, and he
: pleaded with Paroy... Paroy agreed and asked MR which day they should
: be given, to which he suggested Shabbos.
: Later on when HKBH gave made Shabbos the day of rest, "Yismach Moshe"
: - Moshe was happy that HKBH had approved of his choice of day.

RSSkop discusses this tefillah in the haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher (tr
mine, from <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/ShaareiYosher.pdf> which has
the machashavah porting of the haqdamah in Hebrew and English in
full):
...
> From here it should be self-evident that love of oneself is desired
> by the Holy One, even though "the wise shall walk because of it
> and the foolish will stumble over it." In my opinion, this is true
> despite all the evil and sin that the world is full of because of
> this middah of self-love. Added to the challenge of wealth, this
> middah will cause him to stumble until the depths, as it is written,
> "Lest I grow full and deny." Because of the greatness of a person's
> attachment to his own qav, if Hashem graced him with wealth, and
> he believes with complete true faith that everything is the Holy
> One's, he is in truth poor.  What he has isn't his. However, if
> he denies G-d, then it is all his and he is in his own mind truly
> wealthy. Therefore, to satisfy his desire to enjoy his wealth, he
> will habituate himself to deny G-d, and then his error is complete.

> One can also feel this way with respect to acquiring a greater thing
> [than a qav of merchandise], which is wisdom....

> With this one can explain what it said, "Moses will be joyous
> with the giving of his portion, because You called him a reliable
> servant." There is no joy in receiving a bit of wisdom unless he is a
> reliable servant who possesses nothing, that it is all his Master's.
> Only then there is complete joy in acquiring wisdom. Without this
> [attitude] it is possible that there is no happiness in acquiring
> wisdom, for it through it he is capable of defending to heresy.

> Although at first glance it seems that feelings of love for oneself
> and feelings of love for others are like competing co-wives one to
> the other, we have the duty to try to delve into it, to find the
> means to unite them, since Hashem expects both from us. This means [a
> person must] explain and accept the truth of the quality of his "I",
> for with it the statures of [different] people are differentiated,
> each according to their level.  The entire "I" of a coarse and lowly
> person is restricted only to his substance and body. Above him is
> someone who feels that his "I" is a synthesis of body and soul. And
> above him is someone who can include in his "I" all of his household
> and family. Someone who walks according to the way of the Torah, his
> "I" includes the whole Jewish people, since in truth every Jewish
> person is only like a limb of the body of the nation of Israel.
> And there are more levels in this of a person who is whole, who can
> connect his soul to feel that all of the world and worlds are his
> "I", and he himself is only one small limb in all of creation. Then,
> his self-love helps him love all of the Jewish people and [even]
> all of creation.

> In my opinion, this idea is hinted at in Hillel's words, as he
> used to say, "If I am not for me, who will be for me? And when I
> am for myself, what am I?" It is fitting for each person to strive
> to be concerned for himself. But with this, he must also strive to
> understand that "I for myself, what am I?" If he constricts his "I"
> to a narrow domain, limited to what the eye can see [is him], then
> his "I" -- what is it? Vanity and ignorable. But if his feelings are
> broader and include [all of] creation, that he is a great person
> and also like a small limb in this great body, then he is lofty
> and of great worth. In a great engine even the smallest screw is
> important if it even serves the smallest role in the engine. For
> the whole is made of parts, and no more than the sum of its parts.
...

(Which gets us back to my previous post. Anavah is knowing that one is
a limb in a great body, and being able to *respond* accordingly.)

Again, simchah comes from anavah, just as Esther's "im la'eis kazos"
created/exemplified the ribui simchah of Adar. Moshe was happy with
*receiving* his cheileq because he was the anav mikol adam and
realized his cheileq was a custodianship with which to accomplish his
part, not self-earned results of personal accomplishment.


SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> As for "Mecheini na misifrecha" I just don't know how it's possible to read
> that as a "threat" or an "ultimatum."  He said, "Please erase me from Your
> book."  He didn't say, "If you don't do what I want, I will erase myself
> from Your book."

> --Toby Katz
> =============

That is definitely a major aspect - if Hashem erases the nation, Moshe
has no reason to continue, and so he requests to be wiped out with us.

But I think there is a threat aspect, as I said previously: Moshe
says, G-d, the nation DOES deserve to be wiped out, but do I? If you
take them out, You've got to take me out too It's when A wants to hurt
B, and C (whom A does not want to hurt, and will definitely hesitate
to hurt) steps in front of B and tells A that...

Mikha'el Makovi

> Sorry I don't understand the question. The Hebrew "anav" does NOT mean
> modest in the sense of not asserting oneself. Moshe defends the Jewish
> people assertively and acts like a leader. He does not eat humble pie
> and he is not a nebish.
> Eli Turkel

But it says Moshe was exceedingly humble, and thus he wouldn't defend
himself against lashon hara, and so Hashem had to defend him against
Miriam and Aaron.

> "Anav" implies a realization that one's powers come from G-d and imply
> more of an obligation than a privelege. There are several Gemarot
> where people claim they are an "anav". Obviously they are not claiming
> that they are nothing

B'vadai. A large part of anavah is recognizing that in the face of
Hashem, you are nothing, and that everything you have is from Him and
it is all a responsibility to be discharged responsibly. Thus says
Mesilat Yesharim.

But we also learn in Orchot Tzidikim that if a person has anavah,
he'll judge everyone else more favorably than himself, saying that he
has some advantage they don't, etc. So quite conceivably, Moshe saw
himself as failing to meet his own potential, but everyone else, he
saw as having greater challenges and thus greater excuse than himself.

The Biblical View of Man by Rabbi Leo Adler (Urim) says that the
Tanach links anavah and yirat hashem so inextricably, almost as if
they're synonyms, because the natural result of fearing Hashem and
recognizing Who He is, is to recognize one's own pettiness and
worthlessness.

(An aside: There are of course many examples of anavah, but an
excellent one, and relatively little known I suspect, is Dr. Benjamin
Carson: his autobiography Gifted Hands is a fantastic example of true
anavah as expounded by Mesilat Yesharim - he recognizes his abilities
are from G-d and that they are nothing but a responsibility, and if
doesn't use them to save lives, he's simply abusing what was given
him, and if he does save lives, then yes he is great, but only because
G-d chose him to be so, and he can take no pride in them; and that he
depends on his secretary and garbage man, etc., to do what he does,
and they are as important as he is.)

Mikha'el Makovi

From: <cantorwolberg@cox.net>
. Moses responded:  'And now, if You would forgive their sin; and if not,
erase me from the Book which you have written.' [Shmos 32:32]

The Zohar gives the following interesting interpretation: ". Moses was
removed from one section of the Torah, the commandments regarding the
Mishkan. Which section is this?: V'ata T'tzaveh, which should have contained
.his name was completely omitted from the entire section. This is an example
of the "curse of a sage (being fulfilled) even when it is conditional."
[Midrash Ne'elam Shiur haShirim Maamar 4]
===============

Interesting that this is from the Zohar. It is mentioned by both the Rosh
(quoting a R' Dan Ashkenazi) and his son the Baal HaTurim - who presumably
didn't see the Zohar.

>>It seems strange to me that for someone who was considered to be the most
humble Biblical character of all time, had the chutzpah to say to the
Almighty: "If you don't forgive them, then count me out." It sounds like a
threat. Which reminds me (l'havdil) of the story of a man who walked into
the bank and took out a gun and pointed it to his own head and said to the
teller, "If you don't give me the money, I'll kill myself."
===========

Indeed, MRAH had mesiras nefesh on behalf of Klall Yisroel - ad kedei kach.

SBA





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