Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 75

Thu, 12 Apr 2007

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <remt@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 01:37:26 GMT
Re: [Avodah] halachic status of siddur (piyyut)

<The thread was about: What is the halachic status of statements in 
Piyyutim? Well, on a topical piyut-halacha issue, here is a Pesach 
Piyyut mentioned by many rishonim.:

There is a well known piyut found in (some versions of) the Ashkenazi 
Piyutim for Shabbat Hagadol beginning "e-l e-lohai haruchot", written 
by R Yosef Tov Elem (Bonfils) who was a Gadol Hador in the generation 
before Rashi. RYTE was very much respected by later generations in 
France and Ashkenaz, Rashi mentions a tshuva of his, many Rishonim 
quote him, etc.

The Piyut goes over the halachot of Pesach , the first half being 
dinei Hag'ala and Bedikat Hametz and matza baking, while the second 
half is dinim of the seder.

Tosafot Pesachim daf 118 quotes a verse from this piyyut and ask a 
number of questions (teima...) as if it were any other psak or svara 
of a rishon that tosafos brings down, ayen sham.>  

     This is not so much a piyut, as it is a compendium of hilchos 
Pesach written in rhyme.  As the author states at the outset, his 
intent is "l'vaeir b'li shemetz hilchos biur chametz."  As such, it 
is unlike any other piyutim being discussed, where psak halacha is 
incidental, not the purpose of the piyut.



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Message: 2
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 02:00:42 GMT
Re: [Avodah] 10 pieces of Chometz

My practice is to put out the ten pieces, but not because of any sort 
of chashash regarding the bracha. Rather, I find that they cause my 
bedikah to be somewhat more careful and thorough. There have been 
years when I missed one or two, and I keep on looking until I find 

Regarding the fears of never finding the missing piece: The chometz 
is placed around the house by someone other than me, and they write 
down a list of where they are all placed, so that even if I give up 
looking for it, we'll still be able to retrieve it and get rid of it.

IIRC, one year they deliberately put out only nine pieces, just to 
keep me alert and looking. I thoroughly complimented them on that 

Akiva Miller

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Message: 3
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 03:10:35 EDT
Re: [Avodah] 10 pieces of Chometz

R' Elliott Shevin  <eshevin@hotmail.com>  wrote:

>>But I've never put out any chometz before the  bedika....

2) It's possibly self-defeating. What if you fail to find  one of the
pieces you put out?<<

I know this is very obvious but for that very reason I write it:  You  put 
out ten pieces precisely so that you will know exactly how many pieces you  put 
out!  How then can you "fail to find one"?
Everyone uses that same number so you don't have to remind yourself how  many 
pieces you put out.  If you count nine pieces when you're done, you  know you 
missed one.  And if you just can't find one of the pieces even  after looking 
for it -- then you didn't look well enough!  So you need  to do your bedikas 
chometz better.  (One person should hide the  bread and the other should look 
-- there's no fun and not much sense in  looking for what you yourself "hid," 
is there? Afterwards, presumably the person  who hid the bread remembers where 
she hid it.   So how could it ever  happen that you look and look and just 
/can't find/ that tenth piece of  bread?!)
Someone came up with a brilliant new Pesach invention -- they keep coming  up 
with stuff -- this one is a package of ten pieces of bread, each in a sealed  
plastic, so when you find the bread after hiding it, there are no crumbs.   
But then someone who bought this super-convenient pre-packaged chometz, when he 
 went to his shul for the big burning, was told that the shul would not  
allow anyone to put plastic in the fire because burning plastic releases toxins  
into the air, so he had to take the bread /out of/ the  plastic   So it didn't 
turn out to be so convenient after all.  

--Toby  Katz

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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Message: 4
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 03:26:38 EDT
Re: [Avodah] not working on chol hamoed

From: "Eli Turkel" _eliturkel@gmail.com_ (mailto:eliturkel@gmail.com) 

>>They asked a posek who said she should show up for
work but  not do anything (unless it was pikuach nefesh).
I was greatly disturbed by  this psak. It seems the posek is more worried
about possible work on chol  hamoed then choshen mishpat issues of
getting paid but refusing to  work.<<

Eli Turkel

She should go back and ask the same posek that very question -- how can a  
paid employee sit there and refuse to work?  I agree it's a strange  psak.
I note that in general they do seem to take chol hamoed very seriously in  
E'Y (is that only the charedi community?) while we in chu'l are perhaps too lax  
about chol hamoed.   
But I don't know anyone in chu'l who would refuse to work on chol hamoed --  
or who would even think of asking a shaila.  
BTW I am typing these very words on chol hamoed, whereas before the  advent 
of the internet, I never used to type on chol hamoed.   I  still  wonder if 
it's mutar and simply assume that if everyone now does it,  it must be mutar.  
Yes, this is similar to the teudas hechsher  of  some frum restaurants discussed 
in these pages a few months ago, the "alle  essen" hechsher.  I sure hope 
that's a good hechsher.  While I am  bringing up this chol hamoed question, let 
me add another:   does  typing on chol hamoed become an issur only if I print 
out what I typed?   How about if I print out what someone else typed?  

--Toby  Katz

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 08:28:43 -0400
Re: [Avodah] not working on chol hamoed

On Sun, Apr 08, 2007 at 03:26:38AM -0400, T613K@aol.com wrote:
:                        While I am  bringing up this chol hamoed question, let 
: me add another:   does  typing on chol hamoed become an issur only if I print 
: out what I typed?   How about if I print out what someone else typed?  

I would think the melakhah of kesivah would be in printing, not typing.
And thus, it wouldn't make a difference who typed it.

Truth is, you don't print what someone typed. You print what exists in
memory at the time of printing. Which generally isn't the same area of
memory that it went into when you typed. Nor when you pulled the text
up off your disk / internet connection. Nor when you walked away from
the word processor, and it swapped some of the memory it was using off to
disk to allow the computer more room to do something else (administrative,
probably) in your absence.

And the difference between a word processor managing your text or a
zemanim calendar turning a city name and month into a calendar is only
one of degree.

Beqitzur, even without a computer doing anything obvious to your text,
there is no one object that is both typed and printed.

But why fixate on kesivah when you can also ask about havarah or binyan /
makeh bepatish? (Or whatever is your favorite electricity prohibition.)

However, we're talking about ch"m: If you enjoy Avodah, then printing
it would be mutar on ch"m for two reasons: as Torah, and for simchas YT.
No less than driving to a YT amusement. No?


Micha Berger             Today is the 5th day
micha@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Chesed: What kinds of Chesed take
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       away my independence?

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Message: 6
From: "Yisrael Medad" <yisrael.medad@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 11:53:38 +0300
[Avodah] Peanuts

I know it is is late in the holiday but this came over the Shiloh list:

I'm told Rav Moshe Feinstein said that there was absolutely NO basis
for including peanuts on a 'kitnitot' list. EVEN Ashkevazimm can eat

Can anyone confirm or deny?

Yisrael Medad
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
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Message: 7
From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 18:09:56 +0200
Re: [Avodah] 'flicking' [or spilling] wine from the kos

RSMontagu wrote:
> R. Shlomo Gaguine says in
> Keter Shem Tov volume 3 that it's an Ashkenazi and Baghdadi minhag. So
> who here says it and who doesn't?

Jeckes don't say it.

Arie Folger

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Message: 8
From: Minden <phminden@arcor.de>
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 13:34:30 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Sefiroh

RMB wrote:

> R' Akiva Miller posted to mail-jewish a list of various opinions about Omer <http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v19/mj_v19i39.html>.
> I went through his meqoros and came out with a modified version of the chart here on Avodah <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol03/v03n043.shtml#15> (11 shitos!).

As always, let me add this to R' Micha's yearly remark: [ :-)

There are 16 or 17 shittes. (Or actually quite some more if you include the issue of the 5th of Iyyer etc, which might be ignored or not, and might come out on different dates and days of the week.)

Gut moued,

Lipman Phillip Minden

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Message: 9
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@bezeqint.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:08:31 +0300
Re: [Avodah] More on Mitzvos and Iyun

> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 02:35:47 EDT
> From: T613K@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] More on Mitzvos and Iyun
> To: avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> Message-ID: <c6c.e682ef2.3345f2c3@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

> One can hardly learn a few pages of Gemara without  coming across lessons 
> in
> character, integrity, chessed, truth and so on.   If you can understand 
> what
> you are reading -- and you are reading this stuff for  hours every day --  
> how
> can you not be affected by it?

There are two issues here, from my experience.

While during my childhood I didn't learn G'mara (very few women did back 
then) but I did learn as many books as I could that contained the Midrishai 
chazal - copied from the G'mara and presented as folk tales usually.

Over the years, I've come across the fact that many men do not even 
recognize many of these tales when I quote them.  When I investigated this I 
discovered that many g'mara teachers had the tendence to skip these pages or 
at least to just read them lightly, without any in depth analysis saying 
"these are JUST stories".

As many here know, they are NOT just stories, the stories contain immense 
treasures of Torah that can only be reached by in depth study of them.

So, we have many young men who despite having studied for years, haven't 
refined their midot -- b/c their teachers didn't show them that this was 
part of the package of learning g'mara.

The 2nd issue is based on the saying: "Just b/c I teach geometry, doesn't 
mean I'm a triangle..."

There are shitot of learning that invest in the training of the mind of the 
student, in his ability to use logic and learn the meaning of the G'marot --  
but completely ignore any kind of spiritual/emotional content.  It is these 
shitot that bring about the existence of people who can be brilliant when it 
comes to understand a G'mara -- and lousy as human beings.  For them, there 
is no connection whatsoever between what they are learning and what they 
must do, how they should act.

In another post on Avodah, someone quoted the tale of Rabbi Shimon Ben 
Shetach's donkey (IIRC). How many times have we heard this Rav's response 
and guidance on how to act quoted by lomdei G'mara?  In fact, many people 
act like his talmidim and not like the rav at all!

It is interesting that davka many places that teach according to the method 
mentioned in the 2nd issue above -- brought in Mussar.

Shoshana L. Boublil

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Message: 10
From: "Shaya Potter" <spotter@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 04:03:39 -0400
[Avodah] RSZA opinion on brain-death?

So the subject of brain death came up some how in discussions w/ one
of my brother in laws, and I was looking it.  In reading the HODS web
page, I was under the impression that RSZA supported the regular
notion of "brain death".  Then I read R. Breitowitz's article on brain
death, and came to the opposite conclusion (due to letter he signed w/
R. Elyashiv)

basically, I think the HODS page is very confusing.  in regards to
brain death it says

Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Orbach ( While there are those who doubt this was
the position of Rav Auerbach, Rabbi Avraham Steinberg testifies that
he personally heard this position from Rav Auerbach after the sheep
experiment and transcribed his psak for him.)

but that's not how I understand R. Steinberg, in the video linked
there he says that RSZA didn't say that heart beating defined someone
as alive, but that it was a matter of "brain function"

In R. Steinberg's article on the HODS website
http://www.hods.org/pdf/R.Auerbach.pdf there seems to be clarification

On Page 5 it says.

b. Brain Death and Organ Transplantation

There is presently an intense rabbinic debate about whether total
brain death, including brain stem death is a valid halachic definition
of death irrespective of cardiac activity.  Rabbi Auerbach's view was
that the complete irreversible brain death, namely death of all the
cells of the brain, constitutes death according to halacha even if the
heart is still beating an even in the case of a brain dead pregnant
woman whose baby is delivered alive.  The fact has to be medically
established with certitude; brain stem death alone is insufficient to
determine death.  Nowadays, since physicians cannot establish the
above-kmentioned criteria with absolute certainty, a brain dead person
is considered doubtfully dead and the halachic rules pertaining to a
gossess apply to him as long as the heart beats.  Accordingly, it is
forbidden to move such a patient or inject into his body any material
to verify whether or not the brain is completely dead.  Theoretically,
it would be permissible to establish brain death by applying highly
reliable tests that would not require moving the patient at all.

irresponsible as his view seems to have nothing to do with breathing,
as even if the breathing functions of the brain are gone, but other
functions remain, it would appear that RSZA would consider the person


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Message: 11
From: "A & C Walters" <acwalters@bluebottle.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:39:45 +0300
Re: [Avodah] Driving Miss Daisy to Chometz

Presumably if she is not so makpid on Chometz on Pesach r"l which is chayav
chatos, she is also not so careful on kashrus the whole year. So: mah
nishtana this time to every time????

"Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org> wrote in message

> Every week she drives this 86 yr old lady to the supermarket to help 
> with her grocery shopping. Friend is sure that the older woman will 
> not change her very routine menu.
> So:
> Does he drive the woman, risking lifnei iveir or mesayei'ah? Or does 
> she not drive, risking the woman having a food shortage? Should she 
> bow out but find a non-Jewish driver -- is that any less lifnei iveir 
> otherwise?

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Message: 12
From: H G Schild <hgschild@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:44:33 -0400
[Avodah] R. Yehudah and the Simanim for Good

My daughter had a vort in her school made haggadah about how the 10 roshei teivos (D'Tzach etc) on the matteh could have been for good inside (i.e. Dvash, Daas, Tzon...) had the Mitzrim not deserved it according to the position that they were inscribed in the first erev Shabbad of creation etc.. Whose vort is this?
HG Schild
Live Search Maps ? find all the local information you need, right when you need it.
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Message: 13
From: "Doron Beckerman" <beck072@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 16:27:10 -0700
Re: [Avodah] Concerning Ourselves with the non-Jewish world

This is an open Rabbeinu Yonah in his Peirush on Avos:
*Rabbeinu Yonah, Commentary to Pirkei Avos, Chapter 3 Mishnah 2:*
"*Rabbi Chaninah Segan HaKohanim says, pray for the welfare of the monarchy,
for were it not for trepidation of it, a man would swallow his fellow

'This statement is meant to express the idea that a person should daven
for peace in the entire world and to feel pain when others suffer;
and this is the way of the Tzaddikim, as David *Alav HaShalom, *said
(Tehillim 35:13) "And I, when they take ill, my clothes are sackcloth,
I afflict my soul with fasting".

For a person should not make his supplications and requests solely for
his own needs, rather he should daven for all human beings that they
be in a peaceful environment, and when there is peace of the monarchy,
there is peace in the world.'


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