Avodah Mailing List

Volume 12 : Number 061

Monday, December 22 2003

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Sun, December 21, 2003 10:02 pm
From: I.Goldstein@majordomo1.host4u.net
Subject:
Nummi Abrahami - The "Coin" of Abraham


[Further to our discussion re Matbe'ah shel Avrohom Ovinu, which I
reposted on a Biblical coin forum I found, here is a response from
someone who obviously knows about this topic:
 -RSBA]

Hello Shlomo & Group,

Allow me to try to clarify this matter for you.

Coins were only minted as currency starting approximately 700 BCE.
One must be careful and realize that there is NO reference to coins found
in ANY of the five books of Moses (Chumash). In fact a careful reading of
every verse dealing with money, noticably uses the word "Kesef" = silver,
"Shekel" = a weight etc. Those who disparage the Torah for mention of
coins that did not exist, do so foolishly because there is indeed no
such mention.

In the Targum we find the "Gerah" translated as the "Maah", which would
on the surface seem to contradict the above. Tosafot explains that the
"Gerah" was a weight in silver and that later when a coin of this weight
materialized it was named "Ma'ah" by the sages. See Tosafot Kiddushin 12b,
the last two lines.

Now in regard to the "Matbe'ah" of Avraham. I am afraid that this Midrash
and quotation from the Talmud are being misunderstood.

It was NOT Abraham who minted these coins.

The Midrash's mention of the Matbe'ah explains "Va'agadlo Sh'mecho"
(I shall make your name reknown) Hence it was not Abraham, Mordechai
etc. who minted these coins. They were produced by others in their honor,
and the gentleman who wrote that they were medallions of sorts is correct.

See Maharsha Baba Kamma 97b who explains the the "Zaken and Zekena"
(Old man and old woman) and that the (Bochur Ubesula" (Young man and
{virgin} woman) were in fact both Abraham and Sarah. (Rashi's approach
is a bit difficult). Thus this coin was in commemoration and celebration
of Sarah's rejuvination to the youthfullness which allowed her to bear
Isaac at an advanced age.

Therefore it was not Abraham, David, Mordechai....who invented
coinage. Neither was it those who produced these Medallions, much as
the first person to roll down a hill was not the person who invented
the wheel.

We do not know what these medallions looked like at all, or even if the
were round.

Technology at the time was not the issue. This is evident from very
early coins which were often highly detailed works of art, and which
were often less than 10mm in diameter!

The gold Jewelry fashioned at the time of Abraham (see the Nimrod
collection), was also stunningly beautiful and may have rivaled the
finest pieces of today. It is therefore understandable that it would not
have been difficult for them to fashion an ornamental medal in the time
of Abraham.

As further proof that this was not a coinage meant as currency, see Midos
V'shiurei Torah who points out that in all these cases in the Talmud
and Midrash the word "Matbe'ah" is used WITHOUT mention of denomination.

Also, notice that ALL the "Mat'beot" mentioned by the Midrash were
produced after great achievements or miracles.

Another interesting point here is that the Iron Age ancients were a
practical people and only wanted to trade in hard assests. Cattle and
sheep were primary bartering tools as were raw precious metals. It is
not that they couln't mint coins. They just saw no need for it.

Indeed coinage has shortcomings. Weights can be falsified, and coins
can be debased.

Interestingly many medieval societies returned to just such a barter
system, perhaps because of these very problems.

See also in Exodus when Jacob bought a field near Shechem for "Me'ah
Kesitah", Targum Unkelos(150CE) defines Kesitah as "Churfan". See Midos
V'shiurai Torah who cites the Ibn Ezra as well as Unkelos himself defining
"Churfan" as sheep. This shows how keenly aware the sages were of ancient
forms of currency.

One more interesting point, I have NOT seen in the numismatic books
who question the historical knowledge of the sages.

Biblical weights unearthed by archaeologists prove that the "Gerah"
weight was .57-.58 grams. This makes the Shekel 11.57 grams, see
David Hendin's Guide to Biblical coins.
The Shekel standard used in the Second Temple (Tyrian), as well as
the shekel of the First Revolt weighed 14 grams. Why the disparity?

Rava (350 CE) in Bechorot 10a explains in regard to another
discussion that the sages increased the shekel weight by 20%. (They
adopted the Tyrian standard)

Question - Did Rava and the sages of 350CE know the long gone Gerah
weight of a thousand years before, where modern archaeology has
proved them 100% correct, but they did they not know the Roman
standard of just a hundred years before? None of the sages?

ONE must STUDY and NOT ASSUME!

Best Regards,
Isadore Goldstein


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:04:05 +0100
From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Where is Ararat


The location where Noa'h and and his entourage landed is often
assumed to be on Mount Ararat. Yet, quite some scholars doubt
the identification of harei Ararat with Mount Ararat. See
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/ararat.htm for a few details.

Anyway, the theory of the dettractors of Mount Ararat is that harei
Ararat is an area, not a single mountain, and that it should be lower
down, as landing on a peak would hardly soon enough mean that birds
would find trees to rest on.

Interestingly, Ramban to Bereishit 8:5 "veeretz Ararat beshefel hakidur"
which is an argument against Rashi, and means, as Ramban states
explicitly, that the ark didn't rest at the summit of a mountain, but
rather in a valley.

Arie Folger
 - 
If an important person, out of humility, does not want to rely on [the Law, as 
applicable to his case], let him behave as an ascetic. However, permission 
was not granted to record this in a book, to rule this way for the future 
generations, and to be stringent of one's own accord, unless he shall bring 
clear proofs from the Talmud [to support his argument].
	paraphrase of Rabbi Asher ben Ye'hiel, as quoted by Rabbi Yoel
	Sirkis, Ba'h, Yoreh De'ah 187:9, s.v. Umah shekatav.


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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:54:44 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: techumim above ten


On 19 Dec 2003 at 3:38, JoshHoff@aol.com wrote:
> There is a discussion in the gemara about whether there is a din of
> techumim above 10 tephachim in regard to a boat, depending on whether
> we say the water is ke-ar'ah semichta -- an extension of the earth.
> However in regard to a train there is no question that it is connected
> to the ground and therefore the height doesn't matter and techumim
> certainly apply. 

If that's the case, a plane should be koneh shvisa as soon as it hits
the ground, before you get to the terminal.

 - Carl


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:35:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: Driving on Shabbos in Lakewood?


R Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
> ... one who came from l'ma'aloh mei'asoroh is a well
> discussed case in eruvin, vis a vis a sefinah that entered port on
> Shabbos. One may not leave the makom mukaf mechitzos in which one
> finds oneself (i.e., as RHM stated, the airport if it is mukaf, as
> they generally are, or, as RCS stated, the plane, if the airport is
> not mukaf.

But what if the vehicle itself is not muqaf mechitzos. Wouldn't even
R' Aqiva (Eiruvin 43a) agree that shavas be'avir mechitzos anyway? I'm
asking because I recall an example of a certain long-awaited white
donkey; Lema'aleh ma'sarah is invoked WRT mashiach coming on Shabbos.

 -mi


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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:54:45 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Chanukah Lights and Late Work


On 19 Dec 2003 at 8:38, gil@aishdas.org wrote:
> Carl Sherer wrote:
>> Why would that be a bracha l'vatala if there are Jews
>> around who will see the Menorah and therefore there
>> is a kiyum of pirsumei nissa?

> The chiyuv is not pirsumei nissa. The chiyuv is lighting candles in a
> *bayis*. The reason for this chiyuv is pirsumei nissa. Do you walk
> around town all evening with a menorah in your hands? No!

Of course not, but you and I have a house. What if someone is not
sleeping in his house that night for whatever reason? In the Hagahos
Baruch Ta'am (in the standard Shulchan Aruch) OH 671, he writes that
if an achsanai bentched in shul, he cannot make a bracha when he gets
to his achsanya. He understands - unlike your understanding above -
that the chiyuv is both on the Bayis AND on the individual.

>> Do you light in shul? Do you make a bracha?

> We only light in shul because it is a minhag, and that is why we make
> the berachah. The Rama says explicitly that no one is yotzei with the
> candles in the shul. See SA, OC 671:7 and MB 44.

See the Beiruei HaGra there who understands that the tzibur should do
pirsumei nissa anytime a yachid is obligated to (although it's not clear
that the Gra would hold that one can be yotzei with the lighting in shul,
he apparently holds there's more to it than minhag - he compares it to
saying Hallel on the first night of Pesach, which admittedly the Rama
doesn't hold from).

In any event, I would argue that someone who will not be returning to
his home that night could be yotzei his obligation to light candles by
lighting b'tzibur, e.g. at a wedding.

 - Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much. 


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:25:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Gil Student" <gil@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: chanukah and trvelling by plane overnight


Efrem wrote:
>Does anyone know the halacha of what to if you are
>travelling on a plane to Israel. We (My wife, son,
>and I) have to be at the airport before shkiya and
>will not get of the plane till it is morning. What
>do we do for chanukah licht?

I asked R' Hershel Schachter about this yesterday. His answer was that
there is really nothing that you can do about it. It is certainly a
sakanah to light candles on an airplane so you cannot do it. Try to
avoid being in this situation.

In terms of subsequent days, when I spoke about this with R' Daniel Z.
Feldman, he mentioned that there might be a question of whether you can
continue adding lights in subsequent days once you missed a day. In other
words, the mehadrin min ha-mehadrin is to add a candle each day and once
you miss a day you lose that mehadrin min ha-mehadrin. I later found
this in his sefer Binah ba-Sefarim vol. 1 (the chapter on Chanukah),
quoted from listmember R' Josh Hoffman in the name of RYBS.

When I asked RH Schachter whether this was an issue he said that he did
not think so (and that it is against a Rama that I have not had time to
look up).

Gil Student
gil@aishdas.org
www.aishdas.org/student


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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:54:44 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Standing/sitting for the chupah


On 19 Dec 2003 at 6:14, Harry Maryles wrote:
> Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>> On 18 Dec 2003 at 7:52, Harry Maryles wrote:
> I'm not sure whether anyone mentioned this perspective but I seem to
> recall that the reason to stand is because of the requirement that
> Nissuin take place in front of a minyan. ...and anything that requires
> a minyan is a davar Shebekedusha which requires standing.. 

It's more than that. It's a dimyon to Matan Torah and HKBH's wedding 
with Klal Yisrael for which all of Bnei Yisrael stood b'tachtis 
ha'har.

I do not recall why the above perspective isn't, applied to
> SB of Nissuin though.

Apparently it is, everywhere outside North America (I was surprised 
at that too when it came up on the list - I thought it was only in 
Israel where everyone stood). 

>>> I have no problem when anyone wants to take on a personal Chumra,
>>> as long as it doesn't impinge on someone else's rights. But when a
>>> given host provides ample seating so that the Chupa can be more
>>> orderly and when an announcement is made for everyone to be seated,
>>> THIS personal Chumra impinges on someone else. 

>> It doesn't have to. They can stand at their places - they don't have
>> to stand in the aisles or crowd around the chupa.

> That would impinge on the rights of the people behind the "stander"
> whose view would be blocked unless they too stand.

And therefore they would be acting properly l'chulei alma. What's 
wrong with that? 

>> I also question whether one can properly classify something as a
>> "personal chumra" where (based on things we have heard on this
>> list), it appears to be the minhag everywhere in the world outside
>> North America. 

> If the Minhag HaMakom is almost universally to sit, then the Poretz
> Geder is the one who stands, IMHO.

Not if the Minhag HaMakom is just plain wrong! That's why I was 
looking for someone to justify it with something more than "that's 
the minhag here." 

 - Carl


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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:54:45 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Did Yitzchok Avinu Speak Rechilus?


I wish I had thought of the question but I didn't. My son brought it
home this weekend. He heard it from Rav Yeshoshua Hartman who asked it
to Rav Moshe Shapiro on a flight from London to Tel Aviv last week.

Did Yitzchok Avinu speak rechilus when he told Aisav "ba achicha b'mirma
va'yikach birchosecha"?

I don't expect an answer until Tuesday night (Ma'arava's Chanuka party)
or Wednesday morning, so feel free until then.

 - Carl


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 15:54:51 +0200
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@post.tau.ac.il>
Subject:
segulah


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:17:30 -0600, Avodah wrote:
< I heard of giving a pregnant woman the end of a challah from a se'udas
beris as a segulah for a ben zachar. My father brought home such ends for
my wife when she was pregnant. (He did so twice when she was expecting
triplets, and we had two boys and a girl. Make of that what you will.)>

How can a segulah help after the pregancy?

<We still didn't explain segulos to my satisfaction. After all, someone
getting something they want or don't want for reasons other than sechar
va'onesh is only yet another factor getting in the way of hashgachah. Why
introduce it? Unlike teva, which aids bechirah, or bechirah itself,
how do segulos serve Ratzon Hashem?>

Instead of asking on these segulot a bigger question is Abaye's statement
that "simanah milta hi". Why eat all the simanim on Rosh Hashana. As
indicated only teshuvah should help on Rosh Hashana not simanim.

 - 
Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 22/12/2003
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:25:20 -0500 (EST)
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: calculation of ma'aser


Harry Maryles wrote:
> Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>> Back a step. What kind of obligation to you think ma'aser kesafim
>> is? It can be anything from de'Oraisa (Shelah, Mes Megillah,
>> Tzedaqah uMa'aseir, "umikol maqom") to an eitzah tovah (Bach YD
>> 331 "Av")....

> Not only the Bach but the Pischei Teshuva brings many Poskim who
> state that Maaser Ksafim is only a Minhag B'Alma.

Actually, I read the Bach to be saying it wasn't even a minhag, but rather
an eitzah/hanhagah tovah. The nafka mina: a minhag Yisrael is still a
form of chiyuv. While it wouldn't take much to override such a chiyuv,
the underlying duty still exists. The Bach, AIUI, says it's a good means
of obtaining berakhah (aseir bishvil sheti'aseir), nothing more.

I should admit my reluctance to write the above. While Torah hi,
velilmodah anu tzerichim, being chosheish for the Shelah or even the
Maharil would raise the amount of tzedakah given. Dwelling on the tzad
heter is not necessarily a good idea.

...
> I have always been a bit perplexed at the concept of Maaser Ksafim.
> Rabbi Kagan's guidlines state that one must give a minimum of ten
> percent of his earnings and a maximum of 20 percent....

An aside: If you're transliterating to English spelling, the CC's
surname would be "Kahan", as in "R' Yisrael Meir haKohein". You find
use of the "g" in spelling his name because the Cyrillic alphabet has
no "h" sound. Normally, the letter hei is spelled with a ge smitchik.
E.g. The Nusach "Ari" siddur with Russian transliteration has a title
that would read "Tegillat Gashem" if there weren't tildes ("~") over
the ge's. As the CC had no children who came to America and changed
the pronounciation of the name to fit the visual spelling, I feel that
calling him "R' Kahan" would be more accurate.

The MB is usually explained to mean that anything beyond 20% would not
be for mitzvas tzedaqah. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be given for
other reasons. There are many other "tzedaqos" other than the poor, many
of them "ein lahem shiur": hachnassas kallah, levayas hameis, the shul,
etc... And perhaps even ma'os chittim and Purim's matanos le'avyonim.

Giving more than 20% to the poor ties up resources from other communal
expenses, not just from personal luxury.

 -mi

 - 
Micha Berger             Until he extends the circle of his compassion
micha@aishdas.org        to all living things,
http://www.aishdas.org   man will not himself find peace.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                        - Albert Schweitzer


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:40:06 -0500 (EST)
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: Demai 3:6


RGStudent:
>> Demai 3:6 teaches us that when we give food to our mother-in-law,
>> you take ma'aser from what you give her, and ma'aser from what your
>> recieve from her...

> This is referring to the unusual case of a "chaver" who marries the
> daughter of an "am ha'aretz". In those days, the title am ha'aretz
> was given to people who were suspected of not taking terumos and
> ma'asros (among other things). While the majority did, there was a
> sizable minority who did not....

Please clarify: Are you saying that the miyut chaishinan was of all of
Kelal Yisrael, or of Amei ha'Aretz? There are issues involved in how
halakhah defines separate populations from which to measure rov or
chaishinan, and I am hoping you can point me to a source WRT its
application benidon didan.

FWIW, I think that from a historical perspective, a "chaveir" was
someone who was clearly a Perushi, and an "am ha'aretz" was everyone
else.

 -mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Until he extends the circle of his compassion
micha@aishdas.org        to all living things,
http://www.aishdas.org   man will not himself find peace.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                        - Albert Schweitzer


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:02:19 -0800
From: "Newman,Saul Z" <Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org>
Subject:
Brisk and structuralism


http://yutopia.yucs.org/archives/000350.html aparrallel between Brisk
derech and a method in the social sciences


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:09:16 -0500
From: "Yosef Gavriel & Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <rygb@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: Driving on Shabbos in Lakewood?


At 11:35 AM 12/22/2003, [Micha] wrote:
>R Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
>> ... one who came from l'ma'aloh mei'asoroh is a well
>> discussed case in eruvin, vis a vis a sefinah that entered port on
>> Shabbos. One may not leave the makom mukaf mechitzos in which one
>> finds oneself (i.e., as RHM stated, the airport if it is mukaf, as
>> they generally are, or, as RCS stated, the plane, if the airport is
>> not mukaf.

>But what if the vehicle itself is not muqaf mechitzos. Wouldn't even
>R' Aqiva (Eiruvin 43a) agree that shavas be'avir mechitzos anyway? I'm
>asking because I recall an example of a certain long-awaited white
>donkey; Lema'aleh ma'sarah is invoked WRT mashiach coming on Shabbos.

I am not sure I understand the question.

YGB 


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:34:07 -0500
From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Driving on Shabbos in Lakewood


I also heard of a similar story involving kids from Yeshiva Darchei Torah
who were heading for somewhere in NJ. As per R Bender who related the
story at a Bar Mitzva that I was at that Motzaei Shabbos, their driver
called from somewhere in route very close to Hadlakas HaNeros . The
psak was that they should proceed to their destination despite the
presence of communities in Staten Island, et al . The sevara was that
riding on a bus operated by a non Jew was an instance of trei drabanan,
et al . The parents were all notifed and none picked up the phone. While
one can dissagree with the psak and the sevara, WADR , in an instance
of kids on a bus, the considerations of allowing kids to be safely in
their destination might have been the governing and overriding factor.

Steve Brizel
Zeliglaw@aol.com


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 19:36:35 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@fandz.com>
Subject:
Re: segulah


On 22 Dec 2003 at 15:54, Eli Turkel wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:17:30 -0600, Avodah wrote:
> < I heard of giving a pregnant woman the end of a challah from a
> se'udas beris as a segulah for a ben zachar. My father brought home
> such ends for my wife when she was pregnant. (He did so twice when she
> was expecting triplets, and we had two boys and a girl. Make of that
> what you will.)>

> How can a segulah help after the pregancy?

Lichoreh, it should be able to help in the first forty days (after 
that, the Gemara in Brachos says that davening for the child to be of 
a specific sex is a tefillas shav). 

 - Carl


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:22:29 -0500
From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Channukkah and traveling by plane


> We (My wife, son, and I) have to be at the airport before shkiya and 
> will not get of the plane till it is morning.  What do we do for chanukah 
> licht?

Here are a few lay attempts at analyzing this question. If you are at the
airport before shkiya, that is too early to light. When are you boarding
? Is there a kosher restaurant in the airport? Are you bringing food
to the airport? Would not the presence of your meal and boarding after
nightfall allow you to light in the airport , presuming it is ok with
the security personnel? The question seems similar in some respects to
leaving on a flight before alos hashacar and arriving at another city
well within Zman kriyas Shma, in which case you should daven where you
arrive-which is what I did last month on a flight to Buffalo when I had
to leave in the very early AM and arrive well within Zman Kriyas Shma
ccording to all opinions.

Steve Brizel
Zeliglaw@aol.com


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:24:49 -0500
From: "Markowitz, Chaim" <cmarkowitz@scor.com>
Subject:
Chanukah Lights and Late Work


Regarding the discussion of persumei nisa and how it relates to lighting
neiros gil@aishdas.org wrote:
>The chiyuv is not pirsumei nissa. The chiyuv is lighting candles in a
>*bayis*. The reason for this chiyuv is pirsumei nissa. Do you walk around
>town all evening with a menorah in your hands? No!

The truth is that from a lomdus perspective (as opposed to a halachic
perspective) this is not so pashut.

The Brisker Rav is quoted as learning the Rambam as saying that the real
chiyuv is one of persumei nisa. It is just that chazal were miskain that
the way one is m'kayeim the mitzvah is thru hadlaka.

(The other ways to understand it is that either a) the chiyuv is the
ma'aseh hadlaka but there is a tenai that it must be done in a way which
is mefarseim the neis-however this tenai might not be m'akeiv or b)
there are 2 independent mitzvos-one of hadlaka and one of persumei nisa)

The Brisker Rav uses this to explain the shittas HaRambam who hods that
if one lit after shkia then you only need to have the neiros lit until
"tichaleh regel min hashuk" and you don't need to have them last 1/2 hour
(as we commonly hold). Since the Rambam holds the ikkur chiyuv is to be
mefarseim the neis if no persumei nisa exists then there is no reason
to have the candles lit.

Another interesting shailah in persumei nisa is whether persumei nisa
is klapei others (to make others aware of the neis or is it also klapei
atzmo. L'mashal the shiltei giborim brings (Rif daf 10) down that if one
is among goyim and will not see a menorah even if your wife lights for you
at home, you should still light a menorah to be mefarseim the neis. This
seems pretty clear there is an aspect of persumei nisa for yourself.

Furthermore, the Aruch Hashulchan says a blind person doesn't light cause
since he can't see theneiros there is no persumei nisa. This seems to
be a big chiddush that the only persumei nisa is for yourself and not
for others. If persumei nisa existed to tell others about the neis why
couldn't a blind person light.


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:25:00 -0500
From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Channukkah lights and light work


> We only light in shul because it is a minhag, and that is why we make the
> berachah. The Rama says explicitly that no one is yotzei with the candles
> in the shul

Doesn't R Yaakov Emden state that the place where the most pirsum hanes
occurs is within the shul?

Steve Brizel
Zeliglaw@aol.com


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:32:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Harry Weiss <hjweiss@panix.com>
Subject:
Chanukah Candles in Shul


At shul on Friday, erev Chanukah, the Rabbi lit the Menorah in the shul.
He put the Menorah against the window on the South Side of the Shul and
lit the candle of the far left.

Several of us have never seen it lit on the left side before and asked
about it. He said that it came from the Kitzur. (It was not the standard
Kitzur but a sefer of halachot by that name from a Rabbi (I cannot
remember his name) in Tel Aviv.

A couple of us check up the Mishna Berurah which confirmed that one
should light the menorah on the South side of the shul and begin with the
East Side of the Menorah, zecher to the Menorah in the Beis Hamikdosh.
It also says one should light it from behind the Menorah. Thus according
to that Mishnah Berurah for the person lighting it, on will be beggining
putting lights in from the right hand side.

The questions I have are. 1. has anyone ever seen that custom before.
2. In a case where one cannot be behind the Menorah to light it, does
one still light it beginning by putting canles in the East side vs. the
right side.

Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@panix.com


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:41:42 -0500
From: David E Cohen <ddcohen@verizon.net>
Subject:
Re: Chanukah Lights and Late Work


R' Zev Sero wrote:
>>What I have taken to doing, with the approval
>>of my father, is to light at work, with a
>>bracha, which achieves pirsumei nissa, and then
>>when I get home I light again without a bracha.

R' Gil Student responded:
>Is your father a rav? If not, I would suggest asking one because I can't
>think of any reason why that would be not be a berachah le-vatalah.

This brings to mind a question that I've had for a while. What about
the sugya of the chenvani (shopkeeper) who had a camel knock down his
candles and start a fire? While everybody's busy trying to figure out
whether or not the halakha is that you should put your candles lower
than 10 tefachim, I have a more basic question: If there's no kiyum
(at least) in lighting at work if that's where you happen to be when the
zeman hadlakah comes around, then what is the shopkeeper doing lighting
Chanukah candles in the first place?!

I have not seen it brought lehalakha that you should light in such
circumstances. I'm just wondering why not, given this gemara.

 -D.C.


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:16:34 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@fandz.com>
Subject:
Re: Channukkah and traveling by plane


On 22 Dec 2003 at 12:22, Zeliglaw@aol.com wrote:
>> We (My wife, son, and I) have to be at the airport before shkiya and
>> will not get of the plane till it is morning.  What do we do for
>> chanukah licht?

As I was reading this question, I realized that I too had this shaila 
four years ago. I was told to light in the house where I was staying, 
because I was leaving late at night on Motzei Shabbos and was able to 
light after dark before leaving for the airport. 

> Here are a few lay attempts at analyzing this question. If you are at
> the airport before shkiya, that is too early to light. When are you
> boarding ? Is there a kosher restaurant in the airport? Are you
> bringing food to the airport? Would not the presence of your meal and
> boarding after nightfall allow you to light in the airport , presuming
> it is ok with the security personnel? 

Actually, as between where you eat and where you sleep, AIUI you are 
supposed to light where you sleep. Although I suppose that if you 
cannot light where you sleep, b'dieved you could light where you eat 
(see above). 

There was an incident several years ago involving a group of people 
who lit in the El Al terminal at JFK. No, they didn't endanger anyone 
or set the place on fire - someone objected to them lighting 
there.... So apparently someone thought the terminal IS an 
appropriate place to light. Which won't help much if you're on the 
afternoon flight and land in Israel the following morning. 

> The question seems similar in
> some respects to leaving on a flight before alos hashacar and arriving
> at another city well within Zman kriyas Shma, in which case you should
> daven where you arrive-which is what I did last month on a flight to
> Buffalo when I had to leave in the very early AM and arrive well
> within Zman Kriyas Shma ccording to all opinions.

Unless you daven vasikin every day. In which case you daven on the 
plane at sunrise without a minyan, just as you would do in a city 
where there is no vasikin minyan.... 

-- Carl

[I think you mean KEvasikin. Davening vasikin would have to do with a
minyan of ancient people.... -mi <g>]


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