Avodah Mailing List

Volume 11 : Number 006

Thursday, May 1 2003

• Re: Defining Chamur and Kal
• Gittin in Iyyar
• Re: Fixing the date of a Yahrtzeit
• Ahava...ahavah 2 times
• FW: Dog query
• Re: Ahava...ahavah 2 times
• RE: Rabbi Slifkin, are you there?
• Re: FW: Dog query
• [none]
• non-Jew blessing Jew in order to receive blessing, as per Genesis 12:3
• Yirei Hashem Bitchu baHashem
• [Areivim] chumros
• More about Lo Sisgodidu
• Re: tzibbur defined
• Re: Rabbi Slifkin, are you there?
• Re: shiurim
• This is the Week!
• Hakdamah to Shaarei Yosher
• Shu"t She'alot Shlomo
• shiurim
• RE: Yirei Hashem Bitchu baHashem
• Chabad.org: Alienation and Faith
• Talmud on computers

On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 12:33:36PM -0400, Jonathan Baker wrote:
: What I came up with is that chumra vs. kula means, given some situation
: in which there are more than one legally correct options, the chamur
: position is the one which involves more effort or a greater act of will,
: while the kal position involves less effort or less act of will.

I would think that the tzad lechumrah is the one that has more chiyuvim
or issurim than the tzad lequlah. So that being yotzei involves a superset
of the requirements otherwise mandated, and being oveir involves a subset.

To save RYGB the effort, see his definition and taxonomy of "chumrah"
from JO at <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n079.shtml#08>. His
issue is that of motivation. RYGB makes 4 categories: halachic concerns,
ahavas H', yir'as H', separation from gashmiyus.

That is also aside from the issue I seem to return to whenever we discuss
chumros, that of homonyms. Chumrah is used to refer to a pesaq or a
minhag where others follow a more meiqil one, or to something someone
does knowing it's lifnim mishuras hadin [LMH]. And of course one could be
unsure if it's halachah or LMH, (eg a compelling argument by someone
other than one's own poseqim) giving middle states between these. RYGB
only considers the LHM related cases to be proper use of the term.

In your mom's case, from what I know of her by email:

She may not be clear on whether she considers it a chiyuv or a
self-imposed LMH. Which means that within RYGB's taxonomy, she is
somewhat motivated by halachic concerns.

However, her primary motivation is ahavas haberiyos. RYGB quotes the
famous RYSalanter story about not having a machzor on YK (chase the
above URL if you don't know the reference!) and ends up contrasting
chumros mei'ahavah with bein adam lachaveiro. So I'm not sure where
he'd classify this.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 10th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org            1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org       Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (413) 403-9905                      judgment bring balance and harmony?

What's the din WRT writing Iyyar in a get: does one use one yud, two yud's,
or wait until Sivan?

-mi

We have heard two different shitos expressed wit regards to fixing the
Yahrtzeit for my father in law ZTl, who was niftar a year ago on Roch
Chodesh Iyar on Shabbos. The two views are :

1) Date of death establishes the Yahrtzeit, unless there is a long delay
until the date of burial.

2) Date of burial establishes the Yahrtzeit,especially in the first
year.I would appeciate any info re this off list .

Steve Brizel
Zeliglaw@aol.com

In a weekly newsletter of Knesseth Yisrawel of Monsey there runs a
regular anonymous feature on Tefillah. I quote from the Pesach issue:
B'ahavah is generally found in in parenthesis and inserted only when YT
coincides with Shabbos. Though some Acharonim try to explain why Shabbos
merits extra love, the parenthesis in fact represents two nuschaos:
one had it just before Shabbos and nowhere else and the other had it
before moadim lsimcha. Early siddurim printed the second b'ahava in
parenthesis to indicate that some say it there instead and this was
mistakenly interpreted as an additon for Shabbos alone.

M. Levin

Anyone know of any reliable sources that allow spaying female dogs? Our
local animal rescue organization claims there are -- but I haven't
found any.

(I'm not talking about the "sell the dog to a goy, who has the surgery
done and then sells it back" heter).

TIA

Akiva

On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 06:05:11PM -0400, Mlevinmd@aol.com cited:
: In a weekly newsletter of Knesseth Yisrawel of Monsey...
: regular anonymous feature on Tefillah. I quote from the Pesach issue:

: B'ahavah is generally found in in parenthesis and inserted only when YT
: coincides with Shabbos. Though some Acharonim try to explain why Shabbos
: merits extra love...

FWIW, RSRH attributes it to being the shomer Shabbos's love, not
HQBH's. See his siddur.

I'm wondering, though, if it was two nusachos for when was someone
always supposed to say "ahavah", how did people come to associate it
with Shabbos? Even as an error, there is a presupposition that ahavah
has more to do witrh Shabbos.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 10th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org            1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org       Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (413) 403-9905                      judgment bring balance and harmony?

A good book on this subject is Maor le-Maseches Chullin by R. Dr.
Yisrael M. Levinger (former rav of Basel).  IIRC, in volume 2 he
also covers some of maseches Avodah Zarah.

Gil Student

Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Akiva Atwood wrote:
> Anyone know of any reliable sources that allow spaying female dogs? Our
> local animal rescue organization claims there are -- but I haven't
> found any.

In the Ma'ayan of about three months ago there was an article against,
however it was in response to a heter. It was a strong crticism of the
heter, but it will also give you that side.

From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
>: The "standard" midrash is that the Yam Suf split into 12 and each shevet
>: used a different lane. Does anyone know a source that says which pathway
>: the Erev Rav who accompanied the Jews used?

> The Ari haQadosh writes that geirim went with shevet Levi. That's the
> nearest I could think of.

WHICH SEFER AND PAGE?

THANK YOU.

I have, on a few occasions, had non-Jews say to me 'G-d bless you',
after taking note of my Jewish appearance.

The following thoughts recently came to me after one such incident.

I assume that they do so for religious reasons - e.g. based on Bereishis
12:3, which is well known and oft-cited among certain segments of the
christian community.

If a non-Jew blesses a Jew with the cheshbon that it will bring him
blessing, does it invoke that blessing ? Or is it perhaps considered
'shelo lishmo' and hence not bring it about ?

This might be analagous to a question raised a while back re 'hamispelleil
biad chaveiro, vihu tzorich lioso dovor, hu ne'eneh techiloh' - re
if someone prays deliberately in such a way in order to get help for
themselves.....if it would 'work'.

Comments ?

Mordechai

Stam interesting...

Tehillim 115 (Hallel):

"Yirei Hashem" (Bitchu baHashem):-

Rashi: Elu Hageirim
Metzudas Dovid: Hemoh Chassidei Umoys Ho'oylom
Redak: Hem hachachomim shehem misboddedim b'veis Hashem lilmod

--

On "Hashem Zechoronu" - the Even Ezra:

Omar Reb Moshe, ki 'zechoroni' - haz'chorim shelonu [!], v'yevorech es beis
yisroel' - hanekeivos...

The EE adds 'v'ein zeh nochoyn...' - ayin shom

SBA

Related to RJB's reviving the subject of chumrah, is a discussion we had
on Areivim that RAMiller brought into Avodah territory.

The question was asked if any of us use 2 matzos at the seder.

I said that I did, and when asked for further info, wrote:
> But only my wife and I do. My guests and children (and I have
> children who are mechuyavei mitzvah) do not.

To which RCSherer asked:
: Why would you not pass the minhag on to your children (or at least
: give the ones over Bar/Bat Mitzva the option to decide)?

Mi:
> It's not minhag. My ancestors in Suvalk didn't do it. I may take on
> my own shtik, and I teach my children the reasons. But unless they
> ask to follow, I don't expect them to. And they didn't.

Which brings us to RAM:
: Where does one draw the line between personal shtik and family minhag? Is
: switching from three matzos to two a chumra which one can take on
: personally, or is it a change of minhag which would require hataras
: nedarim (if even that would work).

To me, a family minhag is something the Bergers have done since origins
lost somewhere in Suvalk (or before). Hanhagos that were accepted by my
grandfather, father, or myself because some lamdus made an impression
is chumrah.

That's obviously not a technical answer, but it resounds as correct
anyway.

Nor is it all that simple. There are cases where the sefarim from
Aruch haShulchan to Brisk to the Ben Ish Chai are clear that what
we were doing was assur or didn't fulfil the chiyuv. That's a change
of a different kind.

I'm not sure why you assume a hanhagah tovah wouldn't require hataras
nedarim. Chazakah (without explicitly saying otherwise) ought be enough
even without the weight of minhag. Or do you mean their braking my
"first generation minhag" even without ever following it would require
one? would that be true for true minhagim?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 11th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org            1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org       Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                strict justice?

On Chol Hamoed Pesach the minyan that I davened in that day started in a
relatively small room with a very small adjacent room used as an ezras
nashim. There was not enough room for all of the tefilin wears to fit
in the small room so a number of us were in the main davening area. A
few of the tefilin wearers were sitting together and one non-tefilin
wearer was sitting in our midst. One of the tefilin wearers asked this
non-tefilin wearer to move. I objected, thinking that it is one thing to
say lo sisgodidu and ask some not to contradict the pesak of the group
in the same room but to have separate seating in the same room seemed to
me to be very essence of making agudos agudos. On further investigation
I looked in the Mishna Berura, there the Artzos HaChayim is quoted that
there is an issue of lo sisgodidu and therefore if one does not put on
tefilin and davens in a minyan where they do, you should put on tefilin.
This seems a lot more in line with not making agudos. I am not familiar
with any other applications of lo sisgodidu. Are there any others?
Do we have any other situation where we solve such problems by continuing
to do the conflicting behavior in the same place just not in front of
the other party?

Kol Tov
Ezriel

Joelirich@aol.com asked:
> Is anyone aware of any sources that define what makes up a tzibbur(eg
> is a shul membership a tzibbur, a minyan kavua etc>)?

The Rosh in his responsa dealing with communal issues surprised me by
stating that a'harei rabbim lehatot applies not just to beit din, but to
any number of people who decide to band together, such as in a community,
for instance. It also seems that the majority can force the minority
to be included, since the source is a'harei rabbim, rather than a kind
of vow to adhere to the legislation of the kahal.

Thus, we may say that any group of Jews united geographically and who
may develop shared institutions are in a sense a tzibbur.

[Split from an email that lumped together two topics. -mi]

On a different note, regarding my question about the fishy gmara in
Avodah Zarah:
What bothers me is not that there seems to be scientifically inaccurate
info there regarding the way marine animals procreate. What bothers
me is that the gmara accepts certain proxies to the biblical signs
of kosherness of fish. For instance, the gmara (supported by Rashi)
states that the presence of a bony spine is a sign of kosherness. Not
wanting to reopen the issue of teh sturgeon and his great defender,
the Nodah biYehudah, I will merely ask whether all tuna is kosher, even
as they all have spines (Rav Tendler junior says not, claims that 2 of
the 4 major varieties of tuna are not kosher)

Arie
-- 
If an important person, out of humility, does not want to rely on [the Law, as 
applicable to his case], let him behave as an ascetic. However, permission 
was not granted to record this in a book, to rule this way for the future 
generations, and to be stringent out of one's own accord, unless he shall 
bring clear proofs from the Talmud [to support his argument].
	paraphrase of Rabbi Asher ben Ye'hiel, as quoted by Rabby Yoel
	Sirkis, Ba'h, Yoreh De'ah 187:9, s.v. Umah shekatav.

I know this is a long ways from the original question about doubling
zeisim. Such is topic drift.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 12:30:08PM +0000, Eli Turkel wrote:
: The measurement of Hezekiah's tunnel also confirms R. Chaim Naeh's
: measurement (though there was some debate about exactly what the sign in
: the middle said). The sign seems to say that the tunnel was 1300 amot
: long...

The version I was told was that the sign was found at one
end of the tunnel, and was cut out and taken to a museum
in Istanbul in 1880. More relevent to our discussion,
that the length given was 1200 ammos, not 1300. I found
<http://www.amyisrael.co.il/brijnet/aje/j3000/old-city/tunnel.htm>
which also has this version. As does
<http://www.varchive.org/tac/siloam.htm>. They first notes that the
tunnel is 535m long, however it's 335m straight distance.

The number is also suspiciously round. So I figured the actual distance
was anywhere from 1150 to 1250 ammos. Doing the division, the straight
distance number is at most 29.1cm (11.5") way below all shitos for the
ammah. Ruling out that possibility.

So, the archeology of Chizkiyahu's tunnel argues for an ammah of 42.8 -
46.8 cm (16.9" - 18.4").

This range ends slightly below the smallest shitah usually cited. Gra"ch
Na'eh defined an ammah as 48cm (18.9").

RMKornfeld (a source I'm sure RET won't have problems with <grin>
<http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/pesachim/insites/ps-dt-109.htm>)
computes the length of an ammah based on the Rambam's statement (on
Ediyos 1:2) that a revi'is is 27 dirhams (a local coin). In the Yad
(Eruvin 1:12) he gives the weight of a revi'is (presumably of wine or
water) as 17.5 dinar, which he held (as per the Behag and Rif) was the
same as an Arabian "sheshdang" dinar. Given that we have record of the
size of the two coin, we can translate both quotes, and we get the same
size -- roughly of the Gra"ch's revi'is.

Bringing that to etzba'os and from there to ammos, it comes to a 46cm
ammah. Matching the implication of the inscription.

(Also, as RMK notes, 46cm is a more realistic measure for the length
from elbow to fingertip. And not just for us 5'4" people, although we
were far more common in Chazal's day.)

I recommend this piece altogether. He makes a pretty solid argument from
a number of different directions. (With one noted problem if it turns
out their thumbs were not a shade narrower [1mm] than ours.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 11th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org            1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org       Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                strict justice?

This is the week to do the Hakdama to Shaarei Yoshser! Kedoshim Teeheyu - 
available in PDF on our website. Explains almost everything there is to 
know about anything.

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org  or  ygb@yerushalmionline.org
essays, tapes and seforim at: www.aishdas.org;
on-line Yerushalmi shiurim at www.yerushalmionline.org

It's at <http://www.aishdas.org/shaareiyosher.pdf>

Aside from RYGB's post, I was simultaneously trying to use RSS's
definition of chessed to understand why ervas achoso is described as
"ki chessed hu".

The medrash takes "hu" to refer to Kayin's necessary marriage to his
sister.

The Ramban takes "hu" to refer to the sibling relationship, which is
the grounds for the issur.

To Rashi, "chessed" here is related to the Aramaic cognate and means
to embarass.

Hirsch has it that chessed means going beyond mishuras hadin. (As does
the Rambam.) Usually it means that someone is offering to give more than
the requirement. However, it means that he is demanding that another
give beyond the normal limit.

Then there's chessed as defined in REED's kunterus by that name.

RSS's definition gives a starting point for all of the above.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 12th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org            1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org       Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (413) 403-9905                      forces the "judge" into submission?

I'm looking for a copy of Rav Shlomo Aviner's Shu"t She'alot Shlomo 6:118.

Does anyone 1) have a copy; and 2) can they fax me a copy of the teshuva?

Thanks,
Akiva

=================================
"We took risks, we knew we took them; things have come out against us, and
therefore we have no cause for complaint, but bow to the will of Providence,
determined still to do our best to the last.”
Robert Falcon Scott

If anyone's interested, there's a good article, with a picture and
transcription, of the sign from Hezekiah's Tunnel, in the Jewish
Encyclopedia.  See
<http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=713&letter=S>

   - jon baker    jjbaker@panix.com     <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker> -

From: SBA [mailto:sba@iprimus.com.au]
> Tehillim 115 (Hallel):
> "Yirei Hashem" (Bitchu baHashem):-

> Rashi: Elu Hageirim
> Metzudas Dovid: Hemoh Chassidei Umoys Ho'oylom

Note that goyim during Bayis Sheni who didn't convert to Judaism but
engaged in certain Jewish practices are called "G-d fearers."

Kol tuv,
Moshe

I just saw an article on Chabad.org that I wanted to recommend to you.
An interesting compare/contrast by Rabbi Dr. Sacks between RYBS and RMMS.

You can read this article at
<http://www.chabad.org/Parshah/Article.asp?AID=42631>.

Gershon

[3 posts bounced ftom Areivim. The "that" referred to in the first
line of this post was a discussion of the relative costs of CDs and
printed copies of the sefarim they contain. -mi]

That raises the following query. There is a Mitzva Ksivas Sefer
Torah. Some Rishonim such as the Rosh maintain that one fullfils this
mitzva by buying sefarim. Does the purchase of a Bar Illan CD count as
a kiyum hamitzva ?

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]