Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 473

Thursday, March 30 2000

• Re: Matza shiurim
• Child Rearing
• Shiurim
• Derech Achila
• Re: Child Rearing
• Re: aniyei ircha
• Re: Shiurim
• No Tachanun until after Nisan?
• Inquisition
• Harry's comments
• Orthodox VIce-President?
• Re: Avodah V4 #471
• Re: Disciplining Children
• Re: matza shiurim
• Re: matza shiurim
• Matza Shiurim
• Re: matza shiurim
• Re: matza shiurim
• matza shiurim
• Dor Rivii

On 30 Mar 00, at 13:55, Sammy Ominsky wrote:

> What's BP? Not British Petroleum, I hope?

I assume Boro Park.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

	In regards to the whole discussion on Child rearing, may I suggest
Rav Shlomo Wolbe's sefer on chinuch. I believe Feldheim just recently
translated it into English. Rav Wolbe holds that in this day and age it is
assur to hit a child (for discipline) past the age of three. His reasoning
is based on the idea that it is assur to hit a child who has reached an age
at  which it will cause him to rebel. In today's day and age Rav Wolbe feels
that is age 3

I believe R' Chaim in the stencil has a piece on rubo k'kulo of a kezayis -
why we do not say such a thing. This has to do with the nature of a shiur:
Is a shiur part of the cheftza of the mitzva, or the point at which you are
permitted to desist from pursuing the mitzva further. R' Yisroel's havana of
ad d'lo yada comes to mind asa mashal: you are mechuyav to drink
continuously, shikrus is a petur from continuing. Sippur Yetzi'as Mitzrayim
seems to work similarly.

I think that hasra'os mechalkos by aveiros and that you are oveir for each
kezayis separately is proof (davar v'hipucho) that beyond a kezayis there
are further mitzvos, but perhaps, depending on the nature of shiurim,
kana"l, only for each additional kezayis.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

RSO wrote about derech achila of a choleh or zakein being more than kedei
achilas pras - true, and we (and you too, IIRC) rely on this for hot
beverages, to not require kedei shesiyas revi'is, but the nidon here is
achila for a bari.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

On 30 Mar 00, at 14:21, Markowitz, Chaim wrote:

> 
> 	In regards to the whole discussion on Child rearing, may I suggest
> Rav Shlomo Wolbe's sefer on chinuch. I believe Feldheim just recently
> translated it into English. Rav Wolbe holds that in this day and age it is
> assur to hit a child (for discipline) past the age of three. His reasoning
> is based on the idea that it is assur to hit a child who has reached an age
> at  which it will cause him to rebel. In today's day and age Rav Wolbe feels
> that is age 3
> 

Actually, IIRC what I read from Rav Wolbe in JO, he said that even 
if you hit a child at 2 it comes back to haunt you later on.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

RD Glasner wrote:

>>However, we are required to desecrate the Sabbath to save a gentile's life not
mishum eivah, but because of darkei shalom.  If we are required to desecrate the
Sabbath to save a Jewish life, then we are required to desecrate the Sabbath to 
save a gentile life, even though the specific limud that allows us to desecrate 
the Sabbath applies only to Jews, because the principle of darkei shalom tells 
us that it cannot be that we 
would desecrate the Sabbath to save a Jewish life, but would not desecrate the 
Sabbath to save a gentile life.  v'dok.>>

See the Mishnah and Gemara in Avodah Zarah 26a which contradicts everything you 
wrote in the above paragraph.  See also Rambam Shabbos 2:12, Chiddushei R' Akiva
Eiger Y"D 154:2, Pri Megadim O"C  E"E 330:4 that there is a difference between a
nochri who is mekabel sheva mitzvos bnei noach and one who isn't.


>>Second, why did G-d tell Yonah to go to Ninveh and warn them to do teshuvah, 
and why did Yonah disobey?  He disobeyed because he did not want G-d to draw an 
invidious comparison between Ninveh and the Jews if the people of Ninveh were to
do teshuvah while the Jews did not.  But G-d insisted that Yonah go to Ninveh to
save it anyway.  Nor was G-d too pleased with Yonah's reaction when He finally 
did spare the city.  I suggest that there may actually be a lesson in that 
little tale.>>

Absolutely.  But that does not lead directly to universalism.


>>Third, gadol ha-adam she-nivra be-tzelem Elokim.  Are you saying that we have 
the right to ignore the suffering of such a creature just because he or she is 
not Jewish?>>

Aniyei ircha KODMIN.  You don't ignore, you PRIORITIZE your own family, 
community, and nation.  Let's not forget that the mitzvah of lehachayoso applies
to gentiles as well as Jews.


Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

I would have thought (speaking theoretically now) that it would be okay to
count the matzah and marror of koreich toward the shiurim for motzi-matzah
and marror -- iff you finish koreich within kidei achilas piras of starting
matzah.

After all, those who disagree with Hillel hold that pesach matzah and marror
can be eaten separately -- not that they MUST be.

OTOH, you need a complete shiur for koreich in order to do the zeicher
limikdash keHillel. So why can't you just have a little bit more for the
earlier steps. (Again, subject to time constraints. OTOH, how long does
it take to eat that little bit?)

Any flaws before I run off to my poseik with this one?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Mar-00: Revi'i, Shmini
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 16b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 23

Can anyone tell me how widespread the minhag is not to say Tachanun in
honor of the dedication of the mishkan (from chof-gimmel Adar to the end
of the month)?    

However by the time the inquisition was dissolved it hadn't operated in
any sort of systematic way for a while.  What is more recent is the
church giving up on the official excommunication of people -- even to the
point of letting Galileo back in 5 years ago or so. 

Even though he hasn't responded to me I do take it that Harry's comments
were sarcastic  However, as equal in importance to his "goyim being
chayiv misa" comment is his comment about us assuming that just because
we live in homes without tv, send our kids to yeshiva, etc. doesn't mean
we completely divorce ourselves from these problems.

As for the BP comment, the Belz Matzo factory in Boro Park did burn down
yesterday (BH 
no one was seriously hurt).  It is probably far enough from Pesach that
other bakeries can pick up the load and there was even talk of the
Belzers being able to use other facilities.    I think some
politicians/community leaders are more afraid that folks might use the
fire as an excuse to increase prices.

Forgive me if this is not appropriate
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
CULTUREBOX
The Orthodox Jew and the Vice-Presidency
Judith Shulevitz
Posted Wednesday, March 29, 2000, at 4:08 p.m. PT


Could an Orthodox Jew serve as president of the United States? 
The question isn't Talmudic anymore, since the name of an 
Orthodox Jew has cropped up on Democratic vice-presidential 
candidate short-lists. Senator Joseph Lieberman--who is 
clearly a long shot--is a Democrat from Connecticut whose 
presumed appeal for Gore lies in his right-of-center 
politics, his religious commitment (which makes him 
attractive to social conservatives), and his early 
condemnation of Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky (which 
would help Gore distance himself from the president's 
perceived moral turpitude). But Lieberman is also what Jews 
call "Shomer Shabbas"--he observes the rules that say what a 
Jew can and can't do between sunset Friday night and sunset 
Saturday night. Among the many things he can't do: drive or 
be driven, turn lights on or off, talk on the telephone, 
operate anything powered by electricity, or write. 

According to the Weekly Standard, Lieberman's embrace of 
strict religious restrictions would probably disqualify him 
from the vice-presidency. At the very least, writes reporter 
Matthew Rees, they "would provoke questions about his ability 
to govern in the event he became president." But if there are 
questions, there must be answers. Culturebox called her own 
rabbi, professors of Talmud at two leading Jewish 
universities, and Senator Lieberman himself to find out what 
those questions and answers would be. 

Let's start at the beginning. Why are so many things forbidden 
on the Jewish Sabbath? The Sabbath is much more important in 
Judaism than is generally understood. You'd think the Sabbath 
would be a routine event, coming as it does every seventh 
day, but the Jews consider the Sabbath to be more sacred than 
any holiday except Yom Kippur, the annual Day of Atonement. 
Also, contrary to popular belief, the Sabbath isn't a day of 
rest. All productivity must cease and all worldly pursuits 
must be set aside, but less for one's personal restoration 
than for the active contemplation of the wonders of God's 
creation--the chief wonders being, in Judaism, the family, 
the community, and Torah, or the Pentateuch and its 
commentaries. To ensure that the Sabbath finds Jews in the 
proper frame of mind, they are enjoined from doing or 
handling anything that might distract them from the higher 
purpose of honoring God and all he has made. 

Given these restrictions, how has Lieberman been able to 
function as a senator? In his 11 years in the United States 
Senate, Lieberman told Culturebox, he has always voted when 
required to do so on Friday night or Saturday, and has also 
attended all emergency White House meetings held on the 
Sabbath. To do this, he walks to the Capitol or White House 
(which is to say, he does not accept a ride, which would be 
forbidden). Luckily for him, senators vote by voice, not by 
pushing a button (so that he doesn't have to operate 
machinery). 

No matter how many technical rules he obeys, he would appear 
to be violating the spirit of the Sabbath, according to which 
one must refrain from work. How does he get away with it? 
There are two answers to this: 1) In Judaism, as opposed to, 
say, Catholicism, there is no clear authority or doctrine. 
Jews are left to draw their own conclusions based on their 
readings of Jewish law, with help from their local rabbis. 2) 
In consultation with his rabbis, Lieberman has concluded that 
while it would be counter to the spirit of the Sabbath to 
engage in what he calls "politics"--i.e., photo ops or any 
other kind of campaigning--it is in keeping with the Sabbath 
to fulfill what he calls his "governmental or public 
responsibility." He explains: "You come to a point where you 
have to decide whether your rigid observance of the ritual 
puts you in a position of failing to uphold an ethical value 
that is also central to your religion." 

But if he isn't observing the Sabbath as strictly as he could 
be, should Senator Lieberman still be considered an Orthodox 
Jew? According to two professors of Talmud at Yeshiva 
University, an Orthodox college, Lieberman's choice to 
perform his duties as a government official on the Sabbath 
when he's required to do so can be reconciled with the 
strictest construction of Jewish law. Lieberman is granted an 
exemption from the Sabbath's enforced idleness on the basis 
of two concepts: pikuach nefesh, roughly translated from 
Hebrew as "regard for human life," and tzorchei tzibbur, or 
"the needs of the community." 

Under pikuach nefesh, a Jew may profane the Sabbath if human 
life is at stake, as it may sometimes be in Senate 
legislation. Tzorchei tzibbur says that Jews are allowed to 
make decisions that affect the entire community on the 
Sabbath--they just can't make ones that affect them or their 
family alone. Everything Lieberman allows himself to do, 
these rabbis say, is covered by one of those two concepts. 
(It should be noted that pikuach nefesh has traditionally 
been understood as pertaining only to Jewish life, but 
rabbinical rulings in the second half of this century have 
extended it to non-Jews, mainly on the grounds that to save 
only the lives of Jews under pikuach nefesh would get the 
goyim so upset that Jewish lives would be put at risk.) 

So, is there anything he couldn't do as vice-president, or as 
a vice-presidential candidate? Asked about his 
vice-presidential prospects, Lieberman was careful to issue 
"the standard disqualification, which is sincerely 
expressed," that he didn't expect to be named vice-president, 
nor was he seeking the position. However, he said, he wanted 
to clear up any misunderstanding about what a religiously 
observant person could or could not do in an executive 
office. Lieberman says that, as a hypothetical 
vice-president, he would balance his duties with the demands 
of the Sabbath much as he has balanced them as senator: "I 
feel I've reached a conclusion on these questions that I'm 
comfortable with." He would not campaign or perform any other 
strictly political duties. He would, however, vote in the 
Senate if he was needed to break a tie and he would meet with 
world leaders or members of the Cabinet--"I'd try to schedule 
them some other time, but if something needed to be done, I'd 
do it." 

What if he had to travel to meet them? "I'd try to avoid it, 
but if I had to ride, I'd ride."  

And in the case of an emergency? Lieberman refused to 
speculate about anything as dire as a president's 
incapacitation: "I'm so far down the chain of hypotheticals, 
I'm going to let you draw your own conclusion." But 
presumably he would be allowed to do just about anything he 
had to under the rule of pikuach nefesh--including being 
sworn in as president should anything happen to the 
president, and pushing the button to launch a nuclear attack. 

What if something came up on the Sabbath which wasn't a 
life-or-death emergency, but which he really just ought to 
take care of it then and there? Yeshiva's J. David Bleich 
says Lieberman would be allowed to delegate just about any 
urgent but non-life-saving  task to a non-Jew, as long 
as it was also on behalf of non-Jews. A Jew is forbidden to 
ask a non-Jew to do something for him on the Sabbath that he 
wouldn't do himself (in other words, a Jew is not allowed to 
have a Shabbas goy, even though many do) but "to personally 
give directions to non-Jews for the benefit of non-Jews is 
permissible," says Bleich. This rule would cover just about 
anything that could be construed as for the good of American 
citizens, since the majority of them are not Jewish. 

Photograph of Joseph Lieberman by Tim Sloan/AFP 
----------------------------------------------------------------


Brought to you by the Internet's informed look at politics and 
culture. Read Slate at http://www.slate.com. 

Slate. What Matters.

In a message dated 3/30/00 12:04:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bteifeld@netcom.com writes:

> I am writing to inquire based on Mr. Sherer's discussion of the parenting 
> class
>  whether it is permissible for a frum person to learn martial arts when
>  clearly as part of practice one must hit and be hit. 
>  
If this falls under the category of the Lav, See S"A Horav Hil, NIzkei Guf 
F'nefesh V'dineihem 4, that even with permission it is prohibited, (however 
it may be considered that this is beneficial, Vyesh Lchaleik V'ayin Shom), 
OTOH why not learn from a non-Jew?

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 3/30/00 12:09:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

> Let's
>  > put the shoe on the other foot: are there any Torah sources
>  > which advocate "that you should not get involved in
>  > your kids' fights, and that you have to let them
>  > fight it out as long as they are not doing
>  > serious physical harm to each other"?
>  
>  I suppose you could argue that the m'an d'amar who holds katan 
>  ha'ochel neveilos ain beis din m'tzuvin le'hafrisho would hold that 
>  way, but AFAIK we don't pasken like that m'an d'amar.
>  
While the Halacha is that when doing for their own benefit B"D is not 
required Lehafrishoi, On the father there always is obligation, see S"A Horav 
343 1-2.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Here are some anecdotes on matza shiurim.

For the Seder my husband, together with Rav Barde'a and some others,
make the matzot (called F'teira) themselves.  The best were always in
the years when they made them in a Tabune (a special oven) -- they
were soft like Pitot.  As the shi'urim are by weight, it is much
easier to comply using this type of matza then the boards usually
used.

One year, (we had more guests then F'teira available) I took the 2
KeZayit of matza boards, wet them well (we allow Shru'ya) and kvetched
them.  They came out to just a few bites that were easy to eat.   I
have no solution for anyone who doesn't allow Shru'ya.

As for the Seder, we have Keves (mutton), which is cooked stove-top in
a wonderful sauce (available upon request).  That is besides the rest
of the delicacies served specifically on Seder night.

Shoshana L. Boublil

"Shoshana L. Boublil" wrote:



> For the Seder my husband, together with Rav Barde'a and some others,
> make the matzot (called F'teira) themselves.  The best were always in

I wrote to Carl Sherer off-line to tell him the same thing. I had a
friend who had a mazzah bakery, and he'd let me in on erev Pesah to make
soft mazzot. Unfortunately, he's no longer in that business, so I'm
considering buying a small pizza oven or a kiln similar to the tabune.
Can't get a tabune here.


> As for the Seder, we have Keves (mutton), which is cooked stove-top in
> a wonderful sauce (available upon request).  That is besides the rest
> of the delicacies served specifically on Seder night.


Yes, please.


---sam

Micha B. wrote:

+ACI-
On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:47:06PM +-0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
: I always understood that 9 minutes was the +ACI-long+ACI- shiur for kdei
: achilas pras, and therefore is the one to use for Yom Kippur. For
: Pesach, I understood we were to use the short shiur, which is two
: minutes (measured from when you start to swallow).

Don't do a tarta disasrei, though. If you are eating Chazon Ish (CI) size
kezeisim, then you could be eating them in CI size kiday achilas piras
(KAP). 1 zayis / 1 KAP should be a constant speed, regardless of whose
shiurim you are using, as the ratio between a zayis and a piras is
constant.+ADwAPA-

I don't think the two--i.e. size of kezayis, and the time for ingestion--are
necessarily in ratio as across various volumes/shiurim.  OTOH one could
agree that certain large sizes make short times unlikely (or impossible) for
the statistically average esophagus.  Still, analytically, I think the two
are independent, until such time as one demonstrates that the time
determined was actually derived by a test that actually measured the volume
eaten.

+AD4APg-Otherwise, you probably aren't yotzei anyway, since achilah gasa lav
shimei
achila.+ACIAPAA8-

I thought achila gassa was subjective . . .

NW

On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 02:48:16PM +0200, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
: For the Seder my husband, together with Rav Barde'a and some others,
: make the matzot (called F'teira) themselves.  The best were always in
: the years when they made them in a Tabune (a special oven) -- they
: were soft like Pitot....

One Purim I suggested this get-rich-quick scheme on the back of the
Chumrah of the Month Club.

First, spread the question as to whether crispy matzos are actually a
hamotzi. And if they aren't (which I believe is Sepharadi p'sak for
non-Pesach), how can you use them for the seder?

Let this rumor mill around to reach panic proportions.

Then, announce that you opened the US's only mass production bakery for
f'teira.

Kidding aside, why do we ever make hamotzi on crispy matzos? Isn't crispiness
sufficient criterion for pas haba bikisnin?

I also wonder when matzos got crispy. Some time between Hillel's koreich and
(very lehavdil) the Council of Nicea's mention of "wine and *wafer*" to
commemorate someone's last supper.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Mar-00: Revi'i, Shmini
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 16b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 23

Micha Berger wrote:


> Then, announce that you opened the US's only mass production bakery for
> f'teira.


Heh. Problem is (and Rabbanit Boublil can confirm) f'teira start to get
stale almost immediately. By second seder (here in H"lA) they're already
a little stiff around the edges. That's why we made them erev Pesah.
Unless you sell them frozen.

For them to be any good, they should be made daily through Pesah.


> I also wonder when matzos got crispy. Some time between Hillel's koreich and
> (very lehavdil) the Council of Nicea's mention of "wine and *wafer*" to
> commemorate someone's last supper.


I would guess it happened around the time people stopped making their
own and started buying them. As I said, f'teira don't keep very well.
And short shelf life doesn't make for good mass sales.

Hey. When the Bet Hamikdash was standing, was the korban Pesah allowed
to be flavored with anything, or was it eaten plain (or with mazzah and
maror but nothing else)?

'Cuz I had a thought... f'teira, lamb, maror, add a little hummus, some
tehinah, viola! Shawarma!

Heh.


---sam


> 
> -mi
> 
> --
> Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Mar-00: Revi'i, Shmini
> micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H
> http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 16b
> For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 23

R' Sammy Ominsky wrote:

> means there would be either 6 or 9 darham in a kezayit. The Ozzer
> Hatefillot (after Shabbat Musaf) defines a darham as 3.2 grams. R' Naeh
> (as quoted by R' Ovadiah) says it's two zetim to an egg, which makes 9
> darham, or 28 grams (about an ounce). R' Ovadiah says we pasken that way
> for mazzah since it's de'oraitah, but since maror is medivrei sofrim we
> can go according to the Rambam that there are three zetim to an egg, or
> 6 darham/18.4 grams to an olive, and that's how much maror we eat
> lema'aseh, unless you wish to cover all de'ot, which you are welcome to
> do, even for a de'rabbanan.

You're defining an olive or egg by weight, rather than volume, which 
is odd to me.  Steinsaltz addresses it in terms of volume.
 
> Do others define a darham differently?

Well, there's the Chazon Ish/Greenfield biblical amah of 44 cm,
which leads to an egg of 44-45 cc.  Hmm, how would that work?
Lessee, one s'ah is 144 eggs, and according to Rambam in HIl.
Shabbat, 2 s'ah is .5 x .5 x .6 amah**3, or .15 amah**3.  One
amah cubed is then 44**3/2 cc, so an egg is 1/144 * .075 * 44**3/2 cc.
Bingo, 44 cc.  So a kezayit would either be .5 or .33 of that, or 22 cc
or 14.5 cc.

See <http://www.jct.ac.il/judaica/dvarTorah/dt25.html> for this amah,
as someone posted before.

Now, the question is how to translate a volume of a kezayit into an 
amount of matzah?  Do we pile up pieces of flat matza to get a volume of
14.5 or 22 cc?  Do we weigh out a volume of so much matza meal, and then 
weigh out an equivalent weight of sheet matza?  The former would be less
total weight than the latter, since there's more air in and between pieces
of sheet matza than between bits of matza meal.
 
> ------------------------------

Catav R' Ominsky achar cach:
> "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" wrote:

> > A kezayis is meaningless unless eaten toch kedei achilas pras. this is true

> Not meaningless. According to the Maharil, eating it bit by bit k'derech
> achilah is OK even lechat'hilah. We don't hold that way, but for one who
> is unable to eat it in the allotted time, they'd still be yozzei
> bede'avad. Actually, I think we're stricter than you, trying for under 4
> minutes. You hold nine, yes?

Aha, Maharil to the rescue, providing a textual way to understand Dr Turkel's
and my torat imecha.  If we assume like RYGB (?) said elsewhere, that we
want to eat plenty of matza at the seder, inasmuch as it is a mitzva d'oraita,
then eating a small piece of matza at the time we make the bracha works -
we can assume that one will eat a shiur during the course of the meal, which
according to this Maharil, works out fine.  Three Chairs for ashkenazi
mimeticism.
 
> > BTW, will the fire in a BP Matzo factory yesterday affect matzo prices this
> > year?
 
> What's BP? Not British Petroleum, I hope?

Borough Park, in Brooklyn.

    Jonathan Baker        |  Knock knock. Who's there? Mischa. Mischa who?
    jjbaker@panix.com     |  Mishenichnas Adar I marbim besimcha ketanah.
  New web page, featuring Rambam Resources: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/

David Glasner has recently made a number of posts using the Dor Rivii as his 
source. The Dor Rivii was unquestionably a tzadik and a Gadol, but the fact 
remains that in his positions on numerous issues he remains a daas yachid 
among gedolei yisrael. David is surely entitled to follow his distinguished 
ancestors positions and advocate that others do so as well, but that does not 
mean that these thoughts and practices are normative. The normative position 
is that one may not save a non-Jew for any reason other than Eivah and that 
one must lose all of his money rather than transgress a negative commandment, 
and the Dor Rivii's argument is addressed and refuted by the Bach. Again, the 
dor rivii is a legitimate position because of his gadlus, but to argue that 
it is normative is just to use apologetics to reinterpret parts of the Torah 
with which we are uncomfortable. 

Toby Rubinson

*********************


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