Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 414

Monday, March 6 2000

• Re: Tephillah laMelech
• Re: Avodah V4 #409
• Re: Dat U'Medina
• How Much is Too Much?
• Re: Dat U'Medina
• Re: Avodah V4 #409
• Re: Dat U'Medina
• Re: Mi Shebeirach
• Secular Degrees
• Re: Dat U'Medina
• Re: Dat U'Medina
• rivavot vs. riv'vot
• re:Just what is Torah uMada
• Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef and halachic status of the Golan
• Jewish Law - Articles (Cloning People and Jewish Law A Preliminary Analysis)
• YU Confiscates New York Times

In message <H00013ad058e9675@MHS>, gil.student@citicorp.com writes
>Chana Luntz wrote:
>
>>>I was always told, however, that the power needed to be one of life and death,
>and some people held that, given that abolition of the death penalty in the 
>country, it was no longer appropriate.  Others held that powers of Royal Pardon 
>(and possibly the in theory  right to reinstate the death penalty - although 
>increasingly, given the powers of Europe, that may not be possible) was 
>sufficient.>>
>
>Do you know of a source for what you were told?
>

No, sorry, that is why I phrased it that way.  In the shul I grew up in,
the Rabbi used not to (and not let his sons) say the Prayer for the
Royal Family, on these grounds (ie the Queen not having life and death),
but also permitted the minhag (established long before he arrived) to
continue, on the "royal pardon" grounds.

Unfortunately, i have no more sources than this, so I do not know what
he based this ruling on.



>The Mishnah (Avos 3:1) says that the reason for the tefillah is that fear of the
>malchus deters murders.  It has yet to be proven that the death penalty is more 
>of a deterrent than life imprisonment.  So, even the power to imprison seems 
>enough to merit the tefillah.
>
>Gil Student
>gil.student@citicorp.com
>

Gut Voch

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

In a message dated 3/5/00 12:36:31 AM US Central Standard Time, 
millerr@mail.biu.ac.il writes:

<< Sounds familiar...
 
 Read some very recent history of germany and the Jews in the 20s-30s
 
 and David, don't turn your back on any of your "teammates" >>

Again, again: America is not Weimar Germany. Americans (that's all of us over 
here, folks, automatically, as soon as we get off the boat or sneak over the 
Rio Grande) aren't Germans. 

TuM, TIDE, whatever: if Orthodoxy can concoct a rationale to allow observant 
Jews to study the culture around them -- to try to really understand it -- 
then fewer of us will suffer the isolated, defensive, and sadly ignorant 
worldview that has marginalized our impact on other Jews and society in 
general, and has victimized us with cynicism and self-pity. Why to we seem to 
want to stretch out our wretchedness well beyond the era of the corrupt 
European societies that fostered it? There is no Pale here. The ghetto is 
gone. People worship Sammy Sosa, not the Kaiser. 

Hey, Judaism is a *happy* religion. It's about Joy. It's about our obsession 
with the greatness of HaShem. So . . . let's loosen up and BE happy. Frum 
Jews living in America who actually know about America know that they can 
live here with that happiness. Others, to whom an insular rabbinate dictates 
what they can and can't learn, perhaps aren't that sure. 

It's a shame when we are deluded by the walls of ignorance we have built by 
ourselves in the name of halacha. If we can't see through it walls, it's our 
fault. Even Hitler can't be blamed for that one.

David Finch

In a message dated 3/5/00 3:48:29 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< 
 I think it is only fair to start this by saying that Carl Sherer is a big 
 fan of Yonasson Rosenblum. >>

I, too, am a big fan of Jonathan (Yonasson) Rosenblum, who was my debate-team 
partner in high school and a friend since we were both five years old.

Jonathan is usually right about everything he says. His devotion to Eretz 
Yisrael does not come from any desire to run away from America. To the 
contrary, he understands America exceedingly well. He still believes in it. 
His presence in Israel reflects a higher calling.

Ask Jonathan if America is another Weimar waiting to round up all the Jews.

David Finch

Last night, Adina and I had dinner followed by a trip to the Kotel 
with some dear friends who were visiting from the alter haim. We 
were talking about the changes in the area where we used to live, 
and our friends told us some things that were frankly quite 
disturbing:

1. Our friends have five children ranging in age from 5-16 bli ayin 
hara, and their annual tuition bill, which is "not quite full tuition" is 
nearly $40,000 after tax. My friend asked me what kind of income I 
thought was necessary to pay that kind of tuition bill, buy your 
children clothes occasionally, pay your mortgage, feed your family 
and so on. My best guestimate was $150-200K per annum. He 
thought that was about right. Needless to say, there are lots of 
families whose income doesn't even approach that number.

2. Despite the fact that yeshiva tuitions are so high, it seems that 
Rebbeim and Morahs continue to be underpaid. I cannot figure out 
where the money might be going. I don't think principals are the 
answer - AFAIK their salaries are only slightly better than the 
teachers' salaries. Insurance costs? Maybe. Building costs? 
Certainly possible. But to me, it's a mystery. He did say that the 
local school has many children who are not paying full tuition. He 
told me what the minimum tuition per child is - and it has not 
changed in the nearly nine years since we left. Since tuition on the 
whole has risen, obviously there are more kids receiving more 
scholarship money.

3. He also told me (without names of course) of families who, 
despite the fact that their children are on scholarship, have sunk 
large amounts of money into home improvements and/or large 
houses, new cars, expensive vacations and so on. Many of these 
can only be described as "keeping up with the Cohens." One has 
to wonder how they look the menahel of the school in the eye and 
ask for scholarships year after year.

4. There are now nebach many families in the alter haim who are 
dependent on handouts from tzedaka. If there was almost no one 
who could be classified as impoverished ten years ago (the first 
appeal that I recall for specific families in that town took place two 
years after we left and was to help certain families afford Jewish 
special ed. for their kids), today there are a large number of 
families that are not making it financially and who are receiving 
discreet handouts of food on a regular basis. All of this is done in a 
manner to maintain anonymity and kavod, and the manner in which 
it is being handled is a credit to the community. Nevertheless, the 
fact that there are so many families who have sunk to such 
desparation is disturbing to me.

5. I was in Canada on business four months ago, when Dr. 
Twerski's articles in JO were discussed at length on this list. 
Therefore, I only recently read them. I mentioned them to my friend, 
and told him how Adina and I were appalled at some of the figures 
cited in there. $100,000 for a wedding - from the shmorg through 
Sheva Brachos. We told him that we thought spending that kind of 
money was obscene - surely there was some other use to which 
that money could be put. He laughed at us. "$100,000 isn't a lot of 
money anymore." 

All of this drove something home to me that I felt accutely during 
my last trip to the US. We, the Jews of Eretz Yisrael, have drifted 
apart from our brethren in the galus in western countries, and we 
continue to do so at an increasing pace. When we speak of the 
costs of a wedding, we include in those costs the cost of an 
apartment and appliances, and still come to far less than what is 
spent on a wedding in the US, despite the fact that appliances 
often cost us 2-3 times as much and apartments cost roughly what 
a less than luxurious home in the US would cost. And yet the 
Gdolim are thinking of instituting takonos to cut down on the cost 
of weddings here. 

Our tuitions are nowhere near what yours are, and most people 
here who work for a living are able to finish the month, although it is 
not always easy. AFAIK our Rebbeim and moros don't feel as 
underpaid as yours do. Chessed dollars, and giving time to the 
school to make up for unpaid tuition bills is almost unheard of here. 
Why our situations are so different is a mystery to me.

I don't know how the poverty rate in my own neighborhood 
compares with the statistics I heard last night, but to the extent 
that our poverty rate exceeds that in the alter haim (as well it 
might), most of the impoverished are likely families of yungerleit, 
where at least the poverty is explicable. Most people we know and 
associate with do not feel any obligation to keep up with the 
Cohens or with anyone else. Most of our friends almost never go 
out except to Simchas. Many of them do not own cars. 

I still recall the nausea I felt when I was in a shul in the US on a 
Shabbos afternoon and someone else visiting from Israel got up to 
speak at Shalosh Seudos. His message, "come on aliya and you 
will be wealthy in high tech," made me feel sick, even if I do make 
my own living off representing high tech companies and investors. 
Is moving to Israel nothing but an economic decision? Is that why 
we are here? Is there no way to appeal to American Jewry other 
than to its pockets?

I don't know what the answers are. If I were in charge, I would favor 
either making a takana that required a large offsetting tzedaka 
donation for anyone making a wedding or bar mitzva with a cost in 
excess of x. Given that would likely be unenforceable (except in 
tight knit communities - probably only chassidish), I would urge 
Roshei Yeshiva to refuse to attend extravagant simchas, and to set 
an example of their own in the manner in which they make their 
own simchas. 

A number of years ago, I attended the wedding of a dear friend who 
lived in a town where the weddings were typically a three-ring 
circus that lasted all day long. The friend and his kallah grew up 
across the street from each other, and therefore the wedding was, 
for the most part, an in town affair. My friend's parents, who are 
leaders in the community, decided to make the affair in an 
inexpensive hall in a different part of town that had never been used 
for a fruhm chasuna. They hoped that others would learn from their 
example that it is possible to make a respectable affair without 
putting oneself into permanent debt. I don't know if they succeeded 
in teaching anyone anything, but the chasuna was lovely. 

I don't know what reaction I expect to this letter. I wrote it really 
just to get my own thoughts off my chest, and if all of you chose 
not to react, I still will have accomplished my purpose. But I think 
we all as a community need to rethink where our values are and 
where they are heading.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 5 Mar 00, at 7:32, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> Jonathan is usually right about everything he says. His devotion to Eretz 
> Yisrael does not come from any desire to run away from America. To the 
> contrary, he understands America exceedingly well. He still believes in it. 
> His presence in Israel reflects a higher calling.

My point exactly.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 3/5/00 7:26:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, DFinchPC@aol.com 
writes:

>  It's a shame when we are deluded by the walls of ignorance we have built 
by 
>  ourselves in the name of halacha. If we can't see through it walls, it's 
our  
>  fault. Even Hitler can't be blamed for that one.
>  
Halacha Rvachas Byisroel Sheisuv Sonei Lyaakov, Hein Am Lvodod Yishkon 
Uvagoyim Loi Yischashov. 

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

----- Original Message -----
From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>

> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 18:38:35 +1100
> From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
> Subject: Dat U'Medina
>
> >From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
>
> Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
> Subject: Dat U'Medina
>
> >>>....I've read in recent posts... that Israel should become
> fully democratic and separate religion from statesmanship.  This cry
> is usually heard by either Chiloniim or from extreme Chareidim here
in
> Israel.  Both sides don't want a jewish state....
> The others are those who live in exile and don't understand what a
Jewish State is....
> ... the blessing of finally after aprox. 2000 years we finally have
a Jewish Medina,....<<<<
>
> To balance this, as well as Carl Sherer's recent patriotic postings,
> I present you with the following article from Friday's Jerusalem
Post
> (and let  you ponder on the general reaction if the Chief Justice
> of the US Supreme Court behaved similarly).
>
>
>
> THINK AGAIN: Appearances do count
>                By Jonathan Rosenblum
>
>                (March 2) Those who fail to recognize the need to be
>                above any hint of bias have lost the right to serve
as
>                the arbitors of the basic values of Israeli society
[article del]

I have also read Carl Sherer's lucid post and I would like to add that
the answer to your question already appeared in my original post -- we
are in a period of infancy for a jewish State.   Just for comparison,
try to imagine that Tzedokkim sat with Perushim together on the same
Sanhedrin -- and how we would react to such a situation nowadays.

In any case, the G'mara answers better than I can:  Kach Hi Ge'ulatan
Shel Yisrael .... like the dawn that at one point there is light and
then there is dark and it repeats until the deapest dark appears just
before the light of morning.

So, if this is indeed a time of Ge'ula (BB"A), which can take another
moment or another century till Mashiach -- we still see moments of
light and moments of darkness -- but it is all part of the process and
BE"H we will be Zocheh to be present at the moment of final Ge'ulah.
Amen.


Shoshana L. Boublil

>  R' YB Soloveitchik explains that Mi Shebeirach is except from this
>  rule ONLY if the sick person is in a life-threatening situation.
>  
>  So, before you give the gabbai that name, think to yourself: Would I drive
>  this person to a hospital to get immediate help? If the answer is "No", 
RYBS
>  wouldn't permit a Mi Shebeirach either.
 
Wait a minute - a person can be in a life-threatening situation (e.g., 
undergoing a regimen of treatment for cancer) and yet not be in immediate 
danger necessitating chillul Shabbos.  Does he not qualify for inclusion?

Kol tuv,
Elozor Preil

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:43:03 -0500
From: gil.student@citicorp.com
Subject: Re: secular studies and mechanchim


For that matter, some of the members of the Moetzes
Gedolei Hatorah attended college; the rosh agudas
yisroel himself has a degree in psychology; Rav Pam
was a high school math teacher; Rav Gifter attended
YU, etc.
_______________________________________________
R. Jordan wrote:

>>Who at RIETS has a PHD, besides R' Tendler?>>

I thought R. Tendler was an MD.  R. Michael Rosensweig
and R. David
Horowitz are
two roshei yeshivah who have PhDs.  If you start
looking at other
faculty you 
quickly find many more Rabbi Doctors.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

--- "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@zahav.net.il>
wrote:
> I've read in recent posts some comments that Israel
> should become
> fully democratic and separate religion from
> statesmanship. 

I do not subscribe to the "either/or" philosophy.  You
can't have a pure democracy and you can't have a pure
theocracy. Resolution of the problems inherent in this
discussion (i.e. the clash between democracy and
religion) cannot be solved by going totally democratic
(bye bye Jewish State) or totally religious, in the
face of strident opposition by the religiously
uneducated  masses. Obviously we do not want to give
up the religious character of the State.  We should
hold on to whatever gains have been made over the past
50 years in the arena of Torah Judaism.  But we should
still preserve the basically democratic nature of the
State.  That is what the original Status Quo agreement
was about.  Ben Gurion understood the importance of
Torah Judaism in defining a Jewish State.  He also,
believed in the principles of social justice within
the framework of a democratic society.  So his vision
was a hybrid of the two ideals.  Even those Socialist
founders of Zionism who eschewed the Torah for the
false god of socialism  knew the importance the Torah
played on defining the moral character of the State,
even while rejecting as archaic it's practices.

This is not so today.  The trend in Israel (as in the
rest of the world) is away from socialism and towards
another false god, that of the almighty dollar and the
"me"ism inherent in chasing it.  While this "Liaise
Faire"(sp?) Approach may be good for the economy it
doesn't really change anything religiously. 

So, in the final analysis, we can't rally opt for a
purist system that eliminates the flaws extant in a
hybrid.  But for the time being, we need to live with
compromise This way we can try and protect the status
quo of undemocratic institutions like Shabbos,
Kashrus, the power of the Rabbanut, etc. The religious
parties should not try to implement more religiously
oriented legislation so as not to alienate the
ignorant masses. At least not now. 

IMHO those who say a separation of Church and State
would solve all problems are wrong.  All religious
gains would be lost.  The character of the State would
no longer be Jewish and the Arabs would be right in
their demands. Without Judaism defining the State of
Israel we may as well call it Palestine. Then Arafat's
(Y'Sh) original idea would be the best idea for peace.
Jordan would be annexed as part of Greater
Palestine... majority rules... one man one vote... 
and... presto... problem solved.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

In a message dated 3/5/00 12:28:11 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< This is not so today.  The trend in Israel (as in the
 rest of the world) is away from socialism and towards
 another false god, that of the almighty dollar and the
 "me"ism inherent in chasing it.  While this "Liaise
 Faire"(sp?) Approach may be good for the economy it
 doesn't really change anything religiously.  >>

I think HM means laissez faire. I dated Liaise Faire years ago, before I got 
married. She was nice, but all she could think of was money, money, money. 
She also was frum, but her heart wasn't in it. She couldv'e used a little 
humbling.

David Finch

This stop-gap posting is meant to keep up interest in whether rivevot is written with a 
chataf or a sheva alone without going into the question of pronunciation or type of 
sheva.  (On what basis do I assume there is  interest to keep up? I.e., excluding 
RGDubin, RRWolpoe and a few others.)

Ben Asher (Baer-Strack version) states that, in words with a double letter, when 
there is a meteg before the first of the two letters, that letter is written with a hataf 
and when there is no meteg with a sheva.  The examples he gives include rivevot alfei 
Yisrael (Bamidbar 10,36) and be-rivevot (Mikha 6,7) with meteg and hataf. He then 
states that the same word in Devarim 33,17 is without meteg and with sheva alone. 
His examples do not include Tehilim 3. 

As posters mentioned that Koren and Roedelheim appear to differ from the Minhat 
Shai, I  refer to what I mentioned in a previous posting, namely, that Koren follows 
Heidenheim (Roedelheim) with very few exceptions. So too, the Mikraot Gedolot of R' 
Shlomo Neter.  The Keter, vocalized by Ben Asher, obviously  agrees with the the 
Dikdukei Ta'amim by the same man.
Ditto for R' MCohen's reconstructed Keter.  R' MBreuer, however, purposely and 
systematically deletes all hatafim except in gutturals despite the fact that the Keter 
has them. So, in the word we are discussing, Breuer has the meteg as per Ben Asher 
but omits the hataf that B"A said goes with it.

BT"W, the above is carefully weasel-worded.  I hope to get to  explain all, hopefully 
before Purim, if and when I write up what I called the prerequisites for explaining the 
same variation in nikkud of Mordechai where even Breuer has a hataf kamatz in a 
non-guttural.

RWWolpe wrote: <<
7) That our mission as Jews to be or lagoyim included a certain level of
universalism; that we are not ONLY particularists.  The first paragraph of
Aleinu shows our particularism, the 2nd shows our universalism.   >>

While it may be true that our mission includes a certain level of
universalism, where do you see that in Aleinu?  Doesn't the
second paragraph refer to the eschatological future
(may it arrive quickly) -- not the here and now?  It seems only the first
(particularistic) paragraph is worded in the present tense.   So I don't
see how you can "darshen" from Aleinu a mandate for universalistic
Tikkun Olam in the present.  (Also in the second paragraph it seems
that  we are portrayed more as witnesses of the Tikkun Olam that
**HaShem** will perform b'tiferes uzo.)

Maybe the metaphor "or la'goyim" is instructive here.  A light source can
project light while remaining where it is and remaining its essential
"self". It doesn't have to actively bring itself to anyone in order for its
light to reach him.

Shlomo Godick

In message , Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il> writes
>> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 07:09:49 -0600
>> From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
>> Subject: Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef and halachic status of the Golan
>
>> Is it an issue of only Bayis Sheini being possibly kudshah lisha'ata vikushah
>> li'asid lavo, and we didn't hold the Golan during Bayis Sheini?
>
>I believe that is correct.
>

I thought it rather had to do with Kibush Yachid - the Golan being part
of Suria being conquered by David as a kibush yachid (while both clearly
recognised conquests, Yehoshua and at the time of Bayis Sheni, were done
by the Rabbim) and whether Kibush Yachid shmey kibush  or lo shmey
kibush. ie first you have to say that kibush yachid shmey kibush before
you even get into the question of kedusha lisha'ata (thus even if you
hold that kedusha lisha'ata is li'asid lavo you do not necessarily hold
so with regard to kibush yachid).


Regards

Chana


>- -- Carl
>
>
>Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
>Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
>Thank you very much.
>
>Carl and Adina Sherer
>mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
>

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

Thanks for the mar'eh makom;  here is the article:
 
 http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/cloning.html

Gershon Dubin
gershon.dubin@juno.com

This story appeared in a recent edition of the YU Commentator, 
and today's Jerusalem Post picked up on it (which is how I saw it). 
Any comments? R. Rich?

-- Carl

Yeshiva Confiscates New York Times

                   

                   A recent Commentator probe has revealed that 
Yeshiva’s Department of Facilities Management has been allegedly 
confiscating New York Times vending machines from their 
respective Uptown campus locations. The machines, which are the 
sole property of The New York Times and have been missing for 
months, were found this week in a restricted access Facilities 
storage room. 

                   According to [name omitted], an IBC/YC Senior and 
the previous New York Times Sales Manager for Yeshiva, the 
machine confiscation began in October 1998 when a machine that 
had been chained to a post at 185th Street and Amsterdam 
Avenue mysteriously disappeared during Sukkot vacation. 

                   “When I came back,” explains [name omitted], “the 
machine was gone and no department in YU would take 
responsibility for its disappearance. I found it hard to believe that 
anyone from the neighborhood would steal a seventy-five pound 
vending machine that was chained to a metal post” 

                   The Times was immediately informed of the 
machine’s alleged confiscation, promptly replacing it with a new 
machine that was chained to 186th and Amsterdam because 
security would not allow it to be placed on 185th. “Security told me 
that Facilities wouldn’t let The Times put the vending machine on 
185th. I don’t understand that at all,” said [name omitted].“They 
don’t even own the land.” In April 1999, Facilities moved the vending
machine from 186th and Amsterdam, placing it in Rubin Hall, and 
an additional machine was brought in for the Morgenstern Hall 
lobby. During Passover vacation, however, the machine from 
Morgenstern was allegedly removed by Facilities, once again 
without the permission of Schubert or The New York Times. 

                   “This time I was very upset,” asserted [name omitted]. 
“It was removed from inside a building, so I knew it had to have 
been Facilities.” For the next few weeks, [name omitted] tried 
unsuccessfully to contact [name omitted], Director of Facilities 
Management, and [name omitted], Director of Supporting Services 
Administration. “I scheduled several meetings with [name omitted],
but he didn’t show up to any of them.” 

                   Both [name omitted] and [name omitted] denied that 
the machines were removed. “I don’t know what you’re talking 
about,” responded [name omitted] to a reporter’s query. But The 
Commentator this week gained access to a well-secured Facilities 
storage room on the “C” level of Belfer Hall, where the confiscated 
machines currently reside. After taking pictures of the stolen 
machines, The Commentator again approached [name omitted] 
and [name omitted], both of them refusing to comment on the 
situation. 

                   Jane Cook, New York City Education Account 
Manager for The Times, said, “If for some reason Yeshiva didn’t 
want our machines on campus, we should have been notified. The 
machines are Times property, and don’t belong to Yeshiva 
University.” “Yeshiva has to learn that they can’t go around 
confiscating Commentators and New York Times vending 
machines whenever they feel like it,” stated [name omitted]. “It’s 
just not normal."


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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