Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 070

Monday, May 31 1999

• ketana age 3 being a besula for a ben noach
• More on L"H issues
• Re: Avodah V3 #68
• China
• Israeli government
• work for shabat
• RE: Avodah V3 #66
• RE: Avodah V3 #67
• Re: anomalous liturgical prooftexts
• from Baghdad to Beijing (fwd)
• Re: Lomdus ba'goyim ta'amin
• Re: ikkarim
• Re: Bagdad to Kaifeng: 10th Century (fwd)
• Re: Ikkarim
• Avodas Hashem Out of the Closet
• Kiddush levana
• Re: Kiddush levana
• The Dakar submarine

Gemera in Nidah 44-45 brings down din that a ketana under 3 will always be a 
besulah even if she has relations because her besulim will return.  Rashi on 
chumash holds Rivkah was age 3 when she married Yitzchak, so one wonders at 
the praise that she was a "besulah ish lo yeda-ah".  Of course she was a 
besulah - she was under 3 at the time!  One is forced to say that the word 
besulah is not the technical definition, but simply means that she never had 
relations, or, more to my liking, perhaps the shiur of age 3 for assuming 
besulim grow back does not apply to a ben noach (though I cannot think of any 
nafka minah and am a bit troubled how this would fit with geirus of a ketana 
under three, but I think its an interesting speculation nonetheless...)

-CB

> From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Lashon Hara (Avodah V3 #65)
> 
> I have certainly heard this said about the Mishnah Brurah.

===> I regret if I was unclear.  I was SPECIFICALLY referring to the
"Shemiras Halashon" works.  About those, I have not encountered statements
that they were "overly machmir".

Unlike the Mishneh Brurah -- where there appear to be "alternate"
compendiums (e.g., Aruch Hashulchan, Chayei Adam, Kitzur, etc.) -- there
appears to be no "competition" to the works on Lashin Hara -- Therefore, I
repeat: is there a source for stating that THESE specific works are
"overly machmir"?



> 
> The question is how those sources are weighed and how they are
> interpreted.  The CC in the Mishnah Brurah did exactly the same thing
> and we find poskim (e.g. Igrot Moshe, Rav Soloveitchik, Rav
> Lichtenstein) arguing with the MB.  In addition, I have been told
> both by Rav Hershel Schachter and by Rav Dovid Weinberger (who quoted
> Rav Moshe Feinstein) that the CC was not a posek and the MB was
> written as a helpmate to learning Shulchan Arukh, not as a sefer
> psak.

===> Has anyone made that statement in regard to the Sifrei Shemiras
Halashon?  As I noted earlier, I came across material indicating that R.
Yisroel Salanter accepted the material as definitive except in ONE
specific case.




> 
> As I wrote in my earlier posts, both Rav Lichtenstein and Rav
> Weinberger (the expert on lashon hara for the CC Heritage Foundation)
> are matir in the specific case of venting to one's spouse provided
> that the spouse is careful not to necessarily believe the
> information.

===> In specific cases, there is no question that there has been an
analysis that there is to'eles.  If anything, this would indicate that IN
GENERAL on can not tell one's spouse in order to "vent".  Instead, one
owuld ahve to consult with a posek to get  a specific determination of
to'eles.


> 
> I believe that the CC's approach on this issue is chumrah and not
> halacha.  However, he considered it to be halacha.  You ask whether
> there may be circumstances where, as was sometimes done in the
> Gemara, a chumrah should be imposed on non-B'nei Torah.  Perhaps. 
> But this should be done consciously, not as a misapplication of the
> Halacha.

===> There has been a repeated assertion of "I Believe..." since we are
not dealing with Ikarei Ha'emunah, it would seem much more useful to cite
a basis for claiming that the CC was "overly machmir" in his works on
Lashon Harah.  So far, I have seen no credible support.  Further, it is
quite possible that IF the CC was machmir in this area, he did so applying
the rule of being strict with people who are not B'nei Torah rather than
as a "misapplication of halacha"...

> 
> Considering the general non-compliance of much of klal yisrael with
> the halachot of lashon hara, I would think that it would be better to
> create rules that people might be willing to abide by rather than
> prohibiting newspapers and all speech to spouses and waiting for
> people to just sigh at their inability to fulfill the laws of lashon
> hara.

===> One can make the same argument concerning Shemirat Shabbat or Arayot
ow whatever -- dpending upon your sample of klal yisrael.  If the halacha
is as the CC formulated it -- and I have not seen credible evidence
otherwise, the claim of non-compliance would -- at best -- mean that
(perhaps) we should "go easy on enforcement" because of "Mutav she'yihyu
shogegin..." The fact appears to be that if there is to'eles, then one CAN
discuss the material in question (and the determination of to'eles is a
distinct issue) and if there is no to'eles, one has to shut up.  I am not
certain that it is accurate or "fair" to group "Newspapers" and spouses
together.  In one case, the matter is the advisablity of discussing
matters with one's wife and in the other case the is obtaining information
that may be important and useful.  besides, it was impression that if ther
ARE problems with newspapers, they go far beyond matters of L"H.

> 
> First, I think we should distinguish between cases which are
> l'to'elet and those which are not.  Second, there is a great chiluk

===> It seems quite clear from the MEforshim that Miryam and Aharon
THOUGHT  that there was a to'eles here.  They were reacting to the fact
that Tzipporah was no longer able to have a married life with her husband.

> between sisters and wives; only the latter are considered "basar
> echad" with their husbands (cf. "ishto k'gufo" in Hilchot Chanukah);

===> Ishto K'gufo is a concept that appears to have LIMITED application in
Halacha and -- agian -- I would like to see ONE source that applies that
concept Lashon Harah.  I see NO connection between Chanukah (where there
is a specific concept of "Ish uvayso" and a halacha that is specific to
the individual.  Will Ishto Kgufo allow the wife to put on Tefillin for
her husband?


> lich'ora there is an inyan for husbands to share their thoughts--not
> only their flesh--with their wives (think of all the sheva b'rachot
> divrei torah you've heard).  Third, the case of Miriam involved

====> The only thoughts that should be shared are those that the Torah
PERMITS to be shared.  If a matter is Lashon Harah, then it simply falls
into the category of stuff that should NOT be shared.



> r'chilut--purposeful spreading, since the pasuk states "va'tidaber
> miriam v'aharon b'moshe...."  In the case where one talks over the

===> I see -- in order to supoprt one's position, it is all right to
malign those who are KNOWN to be tzaddikim.  As far as I know (and please
feel free to correct me) Miram's sin is described ONLY as L"H and NOT as
rechilut.  There is NO indication that she was going to "spread" it
anywhere else.  Indeed, it is clear from the rebuke that seh receives that
had they been correct in their evaluation of Moshe's prophecy, it is quite
possible that their complaint WOULD have been absolutey legitimate.  What
we DO see from here is that oen must be VERY VERY careful in determining
that there is a to'eles.  BTW, at least one of the commentaries states
that not only did Miryam ONLY discuss this with Aharon -- but that Moshe
was present but did nto respond because of his great modesty.
Please provide a source that Miryam intended to "spread" this beyond
Aharon.


> events of the day with one's wife without the intent to spread the
> news (cf. the Rambam dealing with apei t'lat, which I mentioned in my
> first posting on this matter), there should be no r'chilut.  At most,
> one could argue that there is nezek caused to the subject of the
> lashon hara; query whether a husband telling his wife constitutes
> increasing the damage provided that the wife understands that the
> issue is confidential.

===>I fail to see how this is different from the case of Aharon and
Miryam.  Again, if there is to'eles, then it is not considered L"H and if
there is NO to'eles, I do not udnerstand how speaking to a spouse is
permitted especially when there is a clear source to prohibit it and there
seems to be no equivalent source to permit it.

> From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Loshon Horo - Wives 
> I think that one can differentiate between confidences (where the
> confider expects complete confidentiality) and merely sharing
> experiences ("my boss berated me today, what should I do?").

===> What is the source for such a differentiation?  The only POSSIBLE
source is the the "Boss" EXPECTS it to be discussed..?  In the specific
example, there is a potential for to;eles if the wife can really provide
useful feedback... but then it is not simply "sharing experiences"...

> 
> Certainly, if you can change the names, ma tov u'ma na'im.  But what
> if I only have one boss?  Or, if I have many bosses, but each has his
> own personality?

===> Then it is L"H, sounds as if it could not be discussed....




> 
> > As far as husband wife intimacy goes, See Avos 1:5 - Al Tarbe
> > Sicho... b'ishot 
> > omru...
> > 
> 
> I don't believe that this applies to intimate conversations with
> one's wife.  It's supposed to discourage frivolous, unnecessary
> conversation.  On the contrary, I believe that the psychological
> intimacy that comes from sharing one's innermost thoughts with one's
> wife may be some kiyum of onah (which technically refers to physical
> intimacy).

===> I suspect that L"H is considered to be "frivolous, unnecessary
conversation".  I would like a source that states that "psychological
initmacy" of the sort provided by L"H is some sort of "onah".  Otherwise,
it simply sounds like a rationalization for L"H.  The examples of
"psychological initmacy" that the Gemara cites appears to fall into the
category of being "Me'sa'meach" the wife and the like....

Best info received so far...

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:06:23 -0400
From: Steven Bowman <steven.bowman@uc.edu>
To: sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

what do you mean by distance?  time, land miles, sea miles?
since Roman times there was considerable trade by various routes with
China. There is a standard scholarly study available at any university
library on the subject (name escapes me).
Syriac ecclesiastics smuggled silk worms out of China in the mid 6th
century and brought them to Constantinople to Justinian (basis for new
western imperial monopoly on silk).
Raddaniyya (cf EJ, sub Raddanites) described by ibn Khordadbeh in the
8th/9th century
as international merchants travelling from France to China by 3 different
routes over a 3 year period.
'Persian' Jews are understood to have settled in China during T'ang
dynasty. See Sidney Shapiro, JEWS IN OLD CHINA  [NY, Hippocrene, 1984] for
Chinese scholarship which claims Jews reached China during Han dynasty
(Roman period).
Your project sounds interesting. best wishes

Steven Bowman

> Akiva Miller
> 
> The explanation I heard, for that point of view, was not that voting
> facilitates the sin of others, but worse: It is a personal sin, because
> by voting one is personally participating in that government.
> 
I one heard a story that the Brisker Rav told the Satmar Rav that demonstrating
also meant recognizing the government and participating/influencing its decisions.

Eli Turkel

Over shabbat I was asked the following question:

It seems that israeli TV has a segment of a dvar Torah present on friday night
but filmed during the day. The rabbi who has been doing this for years is
retiring and the station is looking for a substitute. They are having a hard
time finding someone who is willing to have his "program" appear on shabbat
(presumably accompanied by some work to actually put it on the air).
On the other hand the person is charge says that if no one good volunteers then
he will ask a reform "rabbi" to give the program.

Does anyone know of any heter to do this considering the alternatives.

(ie either reform or else simply less knowledge of those watching TV anyway
I understand friday night is the most popular evening).

Kol Tuv,
Eli Turkel

With regard to the "election" thread, you might find the following article by Rav 
Aviner enlightening:

http://www.virtual.co.il/education/machon-meir/english/maingb.htm
the topic is: We have a Prime Minister (by Rabbi Shlomo Aviner)

BTW, it appears that this Shavu'ot quite a few rabbis in Israel gave lectures on the 
issue of elections (including my husband) but b/c it was Shavu'ot - no summaries are 
available.  I have my husband's list of sources if anyone is interested.

Shoshana

-------------------------------------
Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
Date: 30/05/99
Time: 02:47:35 PM , Israel

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------
Torah U'Madah Ltd. is developing a DB on the topic:
"Environmental issues and the Halacha (Jewish Law)"
any and all related information would be welcome.

In response to Micha's request:

"But more than either of those, the list is called "Avodah". Theoretically,
we could see more posts that actually help eachother in avodas Hashem and
creating hislahavus."

I would like to share with you a process that is happening in Israel, and I was 
wondering if others around the world have similar experiences.

There is a growing group of women, the majority are women with college backgrounds, who 
in their search for new/old ways of Avodat Hashem, have begun a process of utilizing 
the various home labors as tools for Avodat Midot.

Instead of just treating the job of sorting a closet as the dull, repetitive job it can 
be, they have (under guidance of rabbis) learned how to treat the sorting of the closet 
as an analogy to the sorting of our souls, praying to Hashem before doing the task and 
learning from the experience things that help in Tikkun Midot.  

From experience there are 2 results - the closet stays neat - and there is a wonderful 
feeling of achievment as we have found that we are now closer to Hashem through this.

Another example is the making of Challot every friday, which is also done not just as a 
baking chore, but as a possibility and an effort of Tikkun Midot and praying and asking 
Hashem for his assistance.

I know I'm not conveying the true uplifting of the spirit - this is something one needs 
to experience, and I'm only giving a hint of the process of Tikkun Midot connected to 
this, but in a world where women are seeking and tend to look for methods of Kirva 
La'Hashem, Davka in the male world of Minyan and Kri'at Ha'Torah - this method which 
utilizes the age old "women's work" to come closer to Hashem is very important IMHO.

Shoshana

-------------------------------------
Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
Date: 30/05/99
Time: 02:51:44 PM , Israel

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------
Torah U'Madah Ltd. is developing a DB on the topic:
"Environmental issues and the Halacha (Jewish Law)"
any and all related information would be welcome.

> From: "Richard Friedman" <rfriedma@os.dhhs.gov>
> Subject: "Ozer"; anomalous liturgical prooftexts
> 
>         2. A couple of posts focused on the liturgical proof text for aliyat 
> regel.  Two similar anomalies:
> 
>                 b. In the Haggada Shel Pesah, the Korech is introduced with "al 
> matzot u'mrorim yochluhu" (Num. 9:11), which is about Pesah Sheni, rather 
> than the apparently just as good verse Ex. 12:8.
> 

Rav Sternbach in Moedim uZmanim points out this problem and quotes one
of the Chasidishe Rebbes: "The reason this posuk is used because now we
can't offer the korben pesach; we hope to be able to offer the Pesach
Sheni this year."

Rav Sternbach however points out that the Pesach Sheni is only offered
if it was possible to offer the Pesach rishon and one did not.

Ko; Tov 
Ezriel

The evidence is mounting...

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 13:45:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: nathan katz <katzn@fiu.edu>
To: ygb@aishdas.org
Subject: from Baghdad to Beijing


To come right to the point, Jews in Baghdad during the 10th century would
have had a very good sense of the travel time to Beijing. From as early as
the second century CE, Jews plied the silk route with regularity. The silk
route went from eastern Turkey to Kaifung in the Middle Kingdom. At that
time, Beijing was a provincial city, not the capital.
There is a lot to read about the silk route. Perhaps you'd like to see
Donald D Leslie, _The Survival of the Kaifeng Jews_.

Nathan Katz
Professor and Chair, Department of Religious Studies, DM302
Florida International University, Miami FL 33199 (USA)
tel.: 305/348-3909       fax: 305/348-1879       e-mail: katzn@fiu.edu

In a message dated 5/28/99 11:07:49 AM EST, moshe_feldman@yahoo.com writes:

> The following was posted on the ISRAWORLD list by a non-Jew.  What
>  are the sources about whether one may teach Torah to non-Jews?  (I
>  seem to recall that there was an article published recently on this
>  issue.  Where?)  Also, in the case at hand, the majority of list
>  members are Jewish.
>  
There are many sources, from Gemoroh down thru the Poskim, for a thorough 
review see Encyclopedia Taalmudis Erech Ben Noach.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 5/28/99 10:55:19 AM EST, micha@aishdas.org writes:

> In v3n65, Yitzchok Zirkind <Yzkd@aol.com> writes:
>  : Other issues that come to mind is a) if one is Mkadeish a women with the 
>  : condition that he has a Chelek L'olom Haboh, (as the Gemoroh says Al 
Mnas 
>  : Sh'ani Tzadik, Sh'ani Taanoee etc.).
>  
>  I'm not sure how the definition is relevant. We assume that he had hirhurei
>  teshuvah, and therefore the kiddushin is chal. This is true regardless of
>  defining the details of the issur he has hirhurim about. And, if he isn't
>  in violation, then we don't need to rely on hirhurim, and the kiddush is 
> still  chal.

In the case of Al Mnas Shani Tzadik it is Kidushei Sofeik (E"H 38), because 
he may have done Tshuvah, (a Tshuvah on any sin he committed knowing or not 
knowing), in our case a min/mumar/apikores M'sofeik, what will the Tshuvah 
accomplish, he still doesn't know and believe in the Ikkrim.

>  :                                    b) Lshitas HoRambam (Hil. Rotzeiach 4:
> 10 
>  : and other places) that there is a Mitzvah to kill a Min.
>  
>  And, as has already been pointed out, his definition of "min" there is very
>  similar but not identical to, the list of ikkarim.

Ein Hochi Nami, but there are overlapping ones that the Shaaloh is valid.

>  
>  I think it's relevant also lidinei geirus. What if some Christian wants to
>  become Jewish but not reject the trinity? Or (to bring an example from the
>  second half of the list) a potential geir who disagrees with the concept of
>  techiyas hameisim? L'ma'aseh, I know of no beis din that would consider 
> either  of these people as candidates for geirus.

In a Geirus it would be logical that prior to conversion he learns the 
Ikkrim, so being a Shogeig seems extremely rare.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Ferment!

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 13:15:54 -0700                                   
From: "Paul D. Buell" <pbuell@SEANET.COM>
Reply-To: Map History Discussion List <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list MAPHIST <MAPHIST@HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bagdad to Kaifeng: 10th Century                               

Judging by contemporary Chinese geographical works (the T'ai-p'ing huan-yu
chi, for one), the Chinese had fairly accurate distances calculated for
points in China and for many beyond, points with which the Chinese were
involved in trading (or had been). So I think that, to Chinese geographers
at least, the distance between say Ferghana or even Afghanistan and
K'ai-feng was probably reasonably well-known. Now I suspect that Persian
and Arabic geographers had a pretty good idea of the distance from say
Baghdad to Ferghana. So all that was needed was putting things together.
You should, to start with, look at the relevant volumes in Needham's
Science and Civilization in China. There is directly relevant stuff on
Chinese map making and distance calculation. The T'ai-p'ing huan-yu chi is
from about the period you want and seems to be intended to accompany a
map. Paul D.  Buell
                                                                                
Paul D. Buell                                                                   

In a message dated 5/27/99 7:11:12 PM EST, C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

>  barring a statement of kefirah made 
>  before 2 kosher eidim I do not see how anyone can be classified as a kofer 
>  for denying the ikarim. 

For B"D to disqualify him as a Yid (R"L) they would need Eidim, but for the 
hearer it may not be neccessery, from the Rambam (in many places) is Mashma 
that we don't need Heter of B"D to be Moridin.

>  Therefore, the whole discussion of the Ikarei HaEmunah is academic to 
>  halacha; i.e. you will not find any literature on it in Shut sefarim that 
>  deal with real cases.


I don't have any CD to check this out, in any cases there could be many 
reasons, while OTOH I do agree that the Metzios is very rare.


Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

I think that RSB's post is a wonderful first step in Micha's direction. 
Perhaps Micha might think of how the Aishdas Society would be involved in
such efforts. I would encourage RSB to prepare some lengthier essay on the
topic so it may be published in one of the periodicals that serve American
Orthodoxy, as I am not aware of such efforts here, and they seem to be not
much less important for men than for women! 

Continuing along Micha's lones, some of the deliberations in the world of
contemporary Orthodoxy remind me of R' Avrohom Eliyahu's words in "B'Ikvos
HaYirah":


"And now, not pride ("ga'avo") is our downfall, but humility ("anovo"). We
have become humble without strength, our souls are like widows - deprived
of confidence and security, without strength of mind ("da'as"). This is
not humility for the sake of Heaven; it is for the sake of inactivity that
comes from despair, and for the sake of despair that comes from
inactivity. We have become paupers happy with our lot in our [limited]
spiritual property. The Lithuanian Jew is happy with the glory of his
lomdus; the Polish Jew - with the majesty of his mysticism and lightning
pilpul; the Hungarian Jew - with his Torah fervor and detailed grasp of
Talmudic topics; the German Jew - with his meticulous mitzvah observance
and secular acquisitions. The common denominator among us all is that we
suffice with what we have, placidly and quietly, each of us in our own
[portions], slumbering deeply... [nothing] contains enough spirit of life
to arouse and encourage, to uplift and to lead..." 

One might paraphrase:

The one kind of Jew will only accept advice in Avodah if emanating from
Rav Shach, the other only from Rav Soloveitchik, yet another only from Rav
Kook, and many others yet only from their respective Rebbe.

Would that Avodah and Aishdas would enable us to cross these bounderies,
rather than butressing and reinforcing them!

On Sun, 30 May 1999 toramada@netvision.net.il wrote:

> In response to Micha's request: 
> 
> "But more than either of those, the list is called "Avodah".
> Theoretically, we could see more posts that actually help eachother in
> avodas Hashem and creating hislahavus." 
> 
> I would like to share with you a process that is happening in Israel,
> and I was wondering if others around the world have similar experiences. 
> 
> There is a growing group of women, the majority are women with college
> backgrounds, who in their search for new/old ways of Avodat Hashem, have
> begun a process of utilizing the various home labors as tools for Avodat
> Midot. 
> 
> Instead of just treating the job of sorting a closet as the dull,
> repetitive job it can be, they have (under guidance of rabbis) learned
> how to treat the sorting of the closet as an analogy to the sorting of
> our souls, praying to Hashem before doing the task and learning from the
> experience things that help in Tikkun Midot. 
> 
> >From experience there are 2 results - the closet stays neat - and there
> is a wonderful feeling of achievment as we have found that we are now
> closer to Hashem through this. 
> 
> Another example is the making of Challot every friday, which is also
> done not just as a baking chore, but as a possibility and an effort of
> Tikkun Midot and praying and asking Hashem for his assistance. 
> 
> I know I'm not conveying the true uplifting of the spirit - this is
> something one needs to experience, and I'm only giving a hint of the
> process of Tikkun Midot connected to this, but in a world where women
> are seeking and tend to look for methods of Kirva La'Hashem, Davka in
> the male world of Minyan and Kri'at Ha'Torah - this method which
> utilizes the age old "women's work" to come closer to Hashem is very
> important IMHO. 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Someone asked me this week what the sof zman Kiddush Levana was for this
month.  I am embarrassed to say I didn't know how to calculate it.  Can
someone enlighten me?

Gershon

On Sun, 30 May 1999, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> Someone asked me this week what the sof zman Kiddush Levana was for this
> month.  I am embarrassed to say I didn't know how to calculate it.  Can
> someone enlighten me? 

Theoretically it should be half of the 29d 12h 793c after the molad, when
the moon begins to wane, but there are some Poskim who give a night's
grace. The easiest way to calculate, of course, is by looking at the zman
given explicitly in the Ezras Torah luach :-).

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Attached is the opening paragraph from an Israeli Newspaper about the
sunken Dakar submarine. Do they have a din of a "meis mitzva"? Should we
go around collecting and donating to raise the billions needed?

Navy Chief: No Existing Technology Can Raise Dakar Submarine 
The cost of raising the Dakar submarine, the remains of which were
discovered at the weekend close to Crete, will amount to billions of
dollars - if such an attempt is possible. It would be like the only
similar attempt in military history, when the US army brought a
classified Russian submarine to the surface. These are the assessments
by navy headquarters, which is investigating the possibility of raising
the submarine that sank in 1968, and rescuing the bones of the 69 member
crew. 

********************


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