Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 59

Fri, 11 Aug 2023

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Joel Rich
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2023 18:58:00 -0400
[Avodah] priorities in prayers/shalosh seudot

All other things being equal, would you choose to daven mincha ktana and
eat a rushed shalosh seudot afterwards, daven mincha ktana and eat a
relaxed shalosh seudot beforehand, or daven mincha gdola and eat a relaxed
shalosh seudot afterwards? Why?
joel rich
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2023 14:32:25 -0400
Re: [Avodah] priorities in prayers/shalosh seudot

On Tue, Aug 08, 2023 at 06:58:00PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> All other things being equal, would you choose to daven mincha ktana and
> eat a rushed shalosh seudot afterwards, daven mincha ktana and eat a
> relaxed shalosh seudot beforehand, or daven mincha gdola and eat a relaxed
> shalosh seudot afterwards? Why?

Without Shabbos and seudah shelihis / shaleshudis as issues, it's
a broud machloqes whether to prefer Minechah Gedolah. Rif, Ritva, Rosh
and the Tur say MG, the Rambam and Rabbeinu Chananeil say MQ. The AhS
OC 233:12 says the default is MG, but if MQ is momre contenvient, do
that "ve'ein zeh kelekhatchilah ubedi'eved" (even though he loosely used
the word "lekhatchilah" where I said "default).

The MB s"q 1 says that since the Avodah required that the Tamid shel
Bein haArbayim had to be at the end of the day, the usual preference
for earlier wouldn't apply to our Tefillas Minchah either. He even calls
those rishonim who say MG "meqilin". So the MB seems to say the reverse
-- MQ is prefered unless it poses a risk, such as if you want to eat,
or that's not when the minyan meets.

ROY in Yalqut Yosef 233:1 prefers Minechah Qetavnah in stronger terms
than the MB.

I have overslept Shabbos afternoon Minechah. Even in the summer I could
wake up too late for a regular-time minyan. So, I daven early Minchah,
and then nap with a clear conscience. Which is wone of the MGB's examples
of a good reason, and fits the AhS too. As nearly all Sepharadi minhagim
had died out of the Berger line some 90 years ago, I have to condess I
didn't look into the YY as much.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 You want to know how to paint a perfect
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   painting?  It's easy.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Make yourself perfect and then just paint
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    naturally.              -Robert Pirsig

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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2023 16:17:40 -0400
[Avodah] Does the Aruch haShulchan really think Chalav

AhS Yomi has gotten to chalav yisrael, YD 115.

From se'ifim 3-8, the AhS builds a strong argument (listing lots of
rishonim and early acharonim) that there is a requirement that milk
be watched even if there is no reason to suspect or any likelihood of
adulteration. E.g. even if kosher milk is cheaper and the farmer doesn't
even own or have available treif animals to milk anyway..

And in se'if 9, one of a series discussing the Rama's position,
talks about the requirement that in such a situation where there is no
cheshash, the Jew still needs to be there for part of the milking. And
that immediately after is no good -- kivan sheyeish taqanas chakhamim".

(The nearest thing he -- and I don't know if I mean the Rama or the AhS
-- gets to R Moshe's heter is AhS se'if 3, where the Rama says that the
Jew doesn't have to actually be able to see the milking. It is enough
that if he stood up he could. Which seems to be aking to RMF's equating
knowing to seeing. But, see what follows.)

Then I got to se'if 16, and RYME succeeded in confusing me again. (I know:
the bar is low.) Now the topic is gevinas aku"m, and he contrasts it
to chalav aku"m:

    ... and in this, cheese is more stringent than milk, because with
    milk, the issue is because of tamei milk, and not a gezeirah beminyan.
    But chesses they prohibited beminyan, and nothing alleviates [this
    prohibition]. So wrote the qadamonim (HH"M, sham).

Is this about a *taqanah* of chalav yisrael vs. a *gezeira* against
gevinas aku"m?

Or is it about beeminyan vs not beminyan. But chalav yisrael is the
older of the two -- if cheese had a vote in the Sanhedrin, wouldn't milk
have too?

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   how can he appreciate the worth of another?
Author: Widen Your Tent                - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef


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