Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 76

Sat, 19 Nov 2022

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 14:31:51 -0500
[Avodah] Women Davening (was: [Areivim] Eating Seudah

On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 7:54am GMT, Rn Toby Katz wrote on Areivim:
> Most women don't go to shul every day and many don't go on Shabbos,
> either. Since the men are not home, it is likely that many women don't
> get around to davening every day. Yet women are required to daven
> every day (exactly what and how much is a subject of much dispute).

The AhS discusses this (OC 89:1-...). Kedarko beqodesh when it's hard
to understand where the common practice came from, he tries figuring
out whose shitah (or combination of shitos) we must be holding like.

According to the Rambam, the mitzvah to daven daily is a deOraisa (mitzvah
#5). (The Sifrei says so as well.) The Ramban holds that praying when
in distress is deOraisa, but daily prayer is miderabbanan. And this is
the position taken "bekhol haShulchan Arukh".

The AhS holds when the mishnah (Berakhos 3:1, on 17b) says that women are
peturos from Shema and Tefillin but are chayavos in Tefillah and Mezuzah,
it means only when davening in distress. Not the usual tefillas qavua.

Even according to the Rambam (Hil' Tefillah 1:2), the obligation on
women daily would not be 3 times a day nor any fixed siddur. Because
that derabbanan layer is shehazman gerama.

As for saying Shema, the mishnah (3:3) says they're exempt. Which makes
sense, "bechokhbekha uvqumekha" makes it a mitzvas asei shehazeman gerama.
But daily qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim IS required. (AhS OC 70:2)

So, a woman could say a couple of sentences of her own devise, or from
a Tehillim or from a Tekhines Buch, and be yotzeit. Say Modeh Ani? Make
berakhos? The only real risk of missing their chiyuv to daven or qabbalas
ol malkhus Shamayim ("Melekh Chai veQayam...", "... Melekh ha'olam...") is
if they say it without qavvanah.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 We are great, and our foibles are great,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and therefore our troubles are great --
Author: Widen Your Tent      but our consolations will also be great.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabbi AY Kook

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Message: 2
From: Joel Rich
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 22:50:36 -0500
[Avodah] ?borrow? another?s tallit or tfilin

The shulchan aruch allows one to ?borrow? another?s tallit or tfilin on the
assumption that one would be happy to have another do a mitzvah with his
Questions: What if you have past history which might indicate this might
not be a good assumption? What if after the fact you find out that this
person did not want you to use his property? (Are you yotzei? Did you
Joel Rich
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Message: 3
From: Joel Rich
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 22:52:14 -0500
[Avodah] decision making

https://fs.blog/knowledge-project-podcast/venkatesh-rao/ It helps explain a
method of decision making based on what my tribal affinity determines, not
based on consideration of the specific assertions/facts being debated.
Any application in our halachic community?

Joel Rich
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 16:24:17 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Why are women exempt from positive time-bound

On Thu, Oct 06, 2022 at 02:43:12PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> I have heard often that women are exempt for positive time-bound mitzvas,
> because they are busy taking care of their family...

Except that there are as many exceptions and compliances to the rule.
Even beyond things like the mitzvos asei of Shabbos, which are mandatory
for women by comparison to the lavin of Shabbos (zakhor veshamor bedibur

No Sukkah, but Matzah -- af hein hayu be'oso heneis. And for that reason
Chazal obligated them in Megillah and Neiros Chanukah.

The Rambam says binyan BHMQ is only during the day, but women are still

Meanwhile teaching Torah and therefore also learning it are not for a
specific time and yet women are still peturos.

There are complete lists by R Prof Michael J. Broyde at
https://bit.ly/3EhzlrP or

RSR Hirsch distinguishes between mitzvos like Pesach which are about
ideas cherished at home, and those like Sukkos where the point is going
beyond the home. And that there is a second clause to the MASG exemption
-- it doesn't apply to mitzvos that go beyond the home. Related: kol
keduah bas melekh penimah and traditional gender roles.

I am starting to think that maybe there is a difference based on the
word gerama, and maybe we should open the door to the whole discussion
of taamei hamitzvos and rituals in general.

What is the difference between saying a mitzvah has a given time, and
saying that time is goreim?

Could it be that there are different roles for ritual mitzvos -- perhaps
some are more symbolic, others more experiential / perception setting,
and others... And the concept of shehazman gerama only applies to those
rituals that serve a given role, and therefore have a particular kind
of link to time?

As I said, I am just starting to think about it... Input and batting
the idea around eagerly invited.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 We look forward to the time
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   when the power to love
Author: Widen Your Tent      will replace the love of power.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF              - William Ewart Gladstone

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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 09:03:14 -0500
Re: [Avodah] hirhur kdibur?

On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 07:07:42AM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> When you add to the shmoneh esrai, do you articulate words or just think
> thoughts? (eg do you actually say the words, "please send a refuah shleimah
> for Avraham ben Sarah", or do you simply think those words or about that
> individual??

Say. (Answering "do YOU actually" literally, telling you what I actually
do, not arguing shitos.)

There are suggested coinages for asking for refu'ah or for aiding someone
in doing teshuvah. And with children who have chronic medical issues and
others who are OTD, I say each pretty often. But their existence implies
that however it is you ask -- whether some acharon's suggestion or what
you're moved to say "off-the-cuff" -- it involves articulated words.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 You are where your thoughts are.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp           - Ramban, Igeres haQodesh, Ch. 5
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 15:12:07 -0500
Re: [Avodah] further to R Lakish Annoyed with R Elazar

On Tue, Nov 01, 2022 at 06:33:16PM -0000, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
>> He raised an objection; RLakish considered it and dismissed it.
>> Is one supposed to stop thinking when one's teacher raises an objection and
>> just accept it?

> However it seems to me that even without saying he would have accepted it
> (and/or he needs to accept it), there is a big difference.  If one knew that
> something was said by someone whose learning one rated, surely one would
> think harder about rejecting it and the reasons for doing so than one would
> if it was said by someone who one has less respect for...

Which is what I was trying to say in my answer. But on Tue, Nov 01,
2022 at 12:36:10PM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi responded:
> WADR to R Micha, it is difficult to see how his response addresses any of
> these issues.

I think initial question unnecessarily employs either-or logic.

There is a lot of space between a student being required to blindly
accept one's rebbe position and a student setting out on the topic with
a blank slate, without knowing that a suggested position was his rebbe's.
Situations of more or less confidence in one of two shitos likely happens
more often than a clear "I think A is right and B is wrong."

Knowing what one's rebbe held, knowing that rebbe's ability and yir'as
Shamayim could change the shiqul hadaas. He could take it on faith
that if his rebbe suggested B, shitah B is stronger than it seems to
him, and consequently, he isn't so sure the argument for shitah B is
stronger. Despite how it seems to him.

Again, if it's in not "A is right" but "the sevara for A seem more
compelling". Relative, not absolute.

But RtCL raised something else that I think is very imporant, if not
relevent to a statement discussed as theory in a beis medrash. When
it comes to halakhah lemaaseh in particular, a student needs reshus
from their rebbe to rule altogether, if the rebbe is alive and within
12 mil. (I wonder what 12 mil translates to in the telecommunications
age.) With the exception of a direct question that requires an immediate
answer to avoid someone sinning. (Hil' Talmud Torah 5:3)

In some opinions, such formal permission is all today's semichah means.
(Making the concept of a Rabbanut Semichah a little dubious. But then
I have problems with the whole idea of "Yoreh Yoreh" without shimush
talidei chakhamim.)

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 Life is a stage and we are the actors,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but only some of us have the script.
Author: Widen Your Tent                  - Rav Menachem Nissel
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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