Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 16

Sat, 02 Mar 2019

• 1. Re: Should Shiurim be Corrected to Archeological Data (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Chain of Mesorah (Micha Berger)
• 3. 60-Year Gaps (Jay F. Shachter)
• 4. Where was the Mishkan stored? (Arie Folger)
• 5. Re: Should Shiurim be Corrected to Archeological Data (Arie Folger)
• 6. Re: Chain of Mesorah (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: 2 Women working on Rosh Chodesh questions (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Where was the Mishkan stored? (Micha Berger)

On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 08:39:47PM +0100, R Arie Folger wrote:
: 1a) All the shiurim are connected and they are small (Rav Chaim Noe, small
: dirham shiur)
: 1b) All the shiurim are connected and they are large (Noda biYhuda a.k.a.
: Chazon Ish, even though CI himself held like a variant of view #3)

I would have said

(1a) All shiurim are connected and we are sure enough of what they are
to continue making them small.
(1b) All shiurim are connected, we can't make sense of their stated
connections, so we have to end up much more machmir than (1a).


: 2) All shiurim that can be connected to realia are connected to realia even
: if their ration then conflicts with Chazal. I understand that this is the
: AhS RMB is citing.

Well, again, that's my conclusion, and who said I'm right? When I first wrote
about this AhS <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n006.shtml#01>, I
wrote, "But then in se'if 34 he says something I do not follow, but key to our discussion." And  am still not sure enough I figured out for the surety you're
crediting me.

What the AhS actually says OC 363:34 is that carrying 4 amos in a reshus
harabbim on Shabbos is 4 of one's own forearms. However, for a mavui,
one cannot use just one person's ammah, so Chazal gave a machmir measure
that would include everyone.

And then he spells out a machloqes about whether that means machmir for each instance, or for each mitzvah. The former leads to inconsistency WRT mavui -- big
amos to the 4 ammos width, but 20 small amos for the height.

Here's a link to the AhS, to tempt people into making sure that
what was a big chiddush to me was what RYME meant.
https://www.sefaria.org/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.363.32-35

The AhS opens se'if 34 by saying "lo nitenah haTorah lema'akhei hashareis"
and no two people will end up measuring exactly identically. There is
a limit to the precision halakhah expects of us. And this is what he
is saying in the previous se'ifim, with a margin of +/- 1/48 (1/2 etzba
per ammah). And then 34 continues with this argument about individuals'
arms -- but that's much more than 1/48.

And thus -- don't take my word about peshat in the AhS without checking
yourself!!!


: 3) Some shiurim are connected to realia and some are standardized. This
: view can then split up based on two factors, first of all which are the
: shiurim that are connected to realia and which not (Rav Zalman Koren claims
: that CI held that the kazayit is an exception and is connected to olives,
: but almost all other shiurim are standardized), and secondly whether those
: shiurim that are standardized are small, large or connected by ratio to one
: of the basic realia-based shiurim.

Since the AhS only talks about length where the measure are indeed
anatomical terms, I can't rule this out leshitaso for kezayis, sheqel,
se'ah, beis se'ah, etc...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 11:23:58PM +0200, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
: On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 10:32 PM Micha Berger wrote:
:>   It requires believing that the medrash about Pinechas's centuries long
:>   lifespan is historical. Then again, the Rambam did, and you don't get
:>   more rationalist than that.

: I don't think it requires a longer lifetime for Pinehas than is explicit in
: Navi -- he is still active at the end of Shoftim (20:28).

Unless one takes the dating of the Seder Olam (Leiner ed. #12) that
the stories of chaos at the end of Shofetim (from Pesel Mikhah ch. 17
onward) were during the rule of Kushan Rish'asayim, king of Aram. Then
the stories happen before the shofetim, as Osnial was sent to free us
from Kushan Risha'asayim's oppression.

By the Seder Olam's rechoning, Pilegesh begiv'ah (2535 AM) was only 47
years after crossing the Yardein (2488). Pinechas had to have been less
than 86, as he wasn't born yet when his father was made kohein.

That's very different than living long enough to teach Eili.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org        than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org   then what need do you have for tomorrow?
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

>
> ... Also any gap greater than 60 years would seem to be a problem.
> How many people have major talmidim after that time frame.
> 

When I was the last graduate student who worked with Ernest
R. ("Jack") Hilgard, he was 75 years old and I was 19.  That is a gap
of 56 years.  Moreover, that was during an era of forced retirement at
65; past that age, the university would not pay your salary and you
had to fund yourself thru grants.  Yeshivoth, in contrast, never had
that policy.  Moreover, in Torah learning, 19 is a late age at which to
begin an apprenticeship; normally an apprenticeship would start years
earlier than that.  So a 60-year gap in the chain of Torah is not
implausible, although many such gaps would be statistically unlikely.


                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 N Whipple St
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784   landline
                                (1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"

Dear Ovedim,

According to Sotah 9a, the beams of the mishkan Moshe made were never
destroyed, but were rather stored in a secret space in a hollow on Har
haBayit.

Presumably, those beams could survive the churban of Shilo because, as the
Mishna Zevachim 14:6 explains, Shilo used the tapestries of Moshe's
mishkan, but not its beams.

However, where were they during the more or less 400 years from the
founding of Shilo until the construction of the Beit haMikdash?

-- 
Arie Folger,
Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/

<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/01/28/wir-missionieren-nicht-aber-warum-nicht/>
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RMicha Berger wrote:

> Here's a link to the AhS, to tempt people into making sure that
> what was a big chiddush to me was what RYME meant.
> https://www.sefaria.org/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.363.32-35
>
> The AhS opens se'if 34 by saying "lo nitenah haTorah lema'akhei hashareis"
> and no two people will end up measuring exactly identically. There is
> a limit to the precision halakhah expects of us. And this is what he
> is saying in the previous se'ifim, with a margin of +/- 1/48 (1/2 etzba
> per ammah). And then 34 continues with this argument about individuals'
> arms -- but that's much more than 1/48.
>
> And thus -- don't take my word about peshat in the AhS without checking
> yourself!!!
>

The AhS absolutely says what you report about him. And indeed he is only
speaking of anatomical measures, and we do not know what his position would
be regarding other shiurim.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://rabbifolger.net/

* Koscheres Geld (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/15/koscheres-geld-podcast/>

* Kennt die Existenz nur den Chaos? G?ttliches Vorsehen im J?dischen
Gedankengut (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/14/kennt-die-existenz-nur-den-chaos-gttliches-vorsehen-im-judischen-gedankengut-podcast/>

* Halacha zum Wochenabschnitt: Baruch Hu uWaruch Schemo
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/11/halacha-zum-wochenabschnitt-baruch-hu-uwaruch-schemo/>

* Is there Order to the World? Providence in Jewish Thought
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/09/is-there-order-to-the-world-providence-in-jewish-thought/>

* What is Modern Orthodoxy (from a radio segment)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/08/what-is-modern-orthodoxy-from-a-radio-segment/>
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On 26/2/19 6:08 am, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> By the Seder Olam's rechoning, Pilegesh begiv'ah (2535 AM) was only 47
> years after crossing the Yardein (2488). Pinechas had to have been less
> than 86, as he wasn't born yet when his father was made kohein.

On the contrary, had he not been born yet he would then have been born a 
kohen, and would not have had to receive it as a special gift.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 08:59:14AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: 1. While the Shulchan Aruch Mentions the practice of women not working
: on Rosh Chodesh in oc 417,His wording was of particular interest I
: have not found this practice mentioned the Rambam but was wondering if
: anybody else is aware of him mentioning it.

The source is Rashi and Tosafos who take Megillah 22b's discussion of
Rosh haShanah rest and relate it to women.

I didn't see anything in the Rambam.

So, perhaps the SA's "if it is a woman's minhag to rest, it's a wonderful
minhag" (very rough translation) is his endorsement of a minhag he heard
about some Ashkenazim having. The mechaber couldn't force the "minhag tov"
on Sepharadim, but he did want to encourage it.

Total guesswork, of course.

BTW, the Bach says this minhag is only lehaqeil. That women can do any
melakhos they want to do, even "melakhah keveidah". Rather, they cannot
be asked to do a melakhah they don't want to do.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 09:28:05PM +0100, R Arie Folger, the Noda baGoyim*,
a/k/a der Vienner Rav, wrote:
: However, where were they during the more or less 400 years from the
: founding of Shilo until the construction of the Beit haMikdash?

I'm confused, because this is the first I heard that Mishkan Shiloh
wasn't the one built under Betzalel's leadership, just sitting in one
location for centuries.

I thought that after crossing the Yardein, they built the Mishkan in
Gilgal (Zevachim 118), where it stood for the 14 years of qibush and
chiluq haaretz. The gemara distinguishes between Ohel Mo'eid shebaMidbar
with Ohel Mo'ed shbeGilgal that bamos were permitted during the latter.
Indeed, that language4 does make it sound like two different structures,
because it's not "keshe-beGilgal". But with rabbinic idiom, it might
just be two distinct concepts, one object. Indicative of a new Mishkan,
but not a proof

Then it is moved to Shiloh (Yehoshua 18:1) for 369 years. When the
Pelishtim take Shiloh it is moved to Nov, then once Do'eg haAdomi destroys
Nov, to Giv'on -- for another 57 years total after Nov and Giv'on.

But looking at that pasuq in Yehoshua, "vayishkenu sham es Ohel Mo'eid".
Sounds like they assembled the existing Mishkan at Shiloh.

So I'm thinking that it was indeed one Ohel Mo'eid -- despite the sound
of Mes' Zevachim -- and reassembled.

I'm back to my uninformed assumption that I have before reading RAF's
post.

So where was it during the founding in Shilo?h Operating in Shilo.h

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

* I hope I wasn't over an issur with giving RAF this kinui. It is meant
as a humorously phrased complement, and hope it is taken as such.

-- 
Micha Berger             If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org        than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org   then what need do you have for tomorrow?
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov


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