Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 125

Mon, 05 Nov 2018

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 13:11:03 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Reading Newspapers and Other secular Literature

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 03:16:31AM -0400, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote:
: (The other thing that upset Lakewood, according to my father, was the
: book's portrayal of the Netziv's first wife as a woman who loved to
: learn and had seforim piled high on her kitchen table. My father was
: amused by this, too. <<We never had learned women in our history!?>>)

Also, Zionism. The Netziv supported Chovevei Tziyon.

I enjoy pointing out to people that although Zionism was a hotly contested
issue in 19th cent Eastern Europe, it was not a communal
division line. And so the Netziv's yeshiva had no problem having
R' Chaim Brisker as its segan RY.

(We really don't see Zionism opening up as a community-defining matter
until sometime during or shortly after WWI. The Agudah's first attempt
to have a Kenesiah Gedolah was interrupted by that war. Many rabbanim
were stranded on the way to it. Including RAYKook, who spent WWI in
Switzerland and then England. On their second and successful attempt, in
1923, being a Zionist made you ineligable for membership in the Agudah,
and RAYK wasn't invited.)

: The Levanon and the Magid were both Torah publications. So no, the
: Netziv's Shabbos relaxation did not consist of reading maskilishe
: newspapers!

HaMagid was an shomer Shabbos *Haskalishe* newspaper. For example,
they did a piece on Yom Tov Lipman Lipkin's (a/k/a Lipman Yisroelovitch
Lipkin, as he was registered under) going to college for a degree in
math, and praising R' Yisrael Salanter for being liberal enough to let it
happen. (In reality, there is no indication RYS agreed to the decision.
And the son ends up OTD, so at some point father and son part hashkafic

Not JO. (Which also isn't reading the news on Shabbos, regardless of
whose paper.)

About my earlier mention of the Netziv's Zionism, both were Zionist

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
mi...@aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard

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Message: 2
From: Joseph Kaplan
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 11:37:27 +0000
[Avodah] The Difference Between Idolatry and Moral Degeneracy

?that moral failings may be much
worse even than Hillul Shabbos and AZ, because they corrupt a person to
a degree that he will never be able to do t'shuvo,?

This is, indeed an intelligent and worthwhile statement. Yet it also is, as
I see it, basic common sense that does not require a ?very special and
unique person that only
comes around every few generations.?


Sent from my iPhone

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Message: 3
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 13:29:57 +0000
[Avodah] Waiting Between Eating Meat and Milk

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

Q. I know that there are various customs as to how long one must wait
between meat and milk. Is waiting between meat and milk a Rabbinic
obligation or is it a custom?

A. The Gemara (Chullin 105a) states in the name of Rav Chisda that one who
eats meat is forbidden to eat cheese afterwards, but one who eats cheese
may eat meat. Mar Ukva qualifies that when he would eat meat, he would not
eat cheese until the next meal. There is disagreement among Rishonim as to
how to understand the ruling of Mar Ukva.

  *   Rambam held that Mar Ukva was teaching us that one must wait
  approximately 6 hours, the length of time between meals. Shulchan Aruch
  follows the opinion of Rambam although he states precisely 6 hours.
  *   Tosfos understood that Mar Ukva meant that once one eats meat, it is
  forbidden to eat cheese until the meal is concluded by reciting Birkas
  Hamazon. In addition, the mouth must be cleaned. The Rama follows the
  opinion of Tosfos, but writes that there is a minhag to wait one hour and
  that the custom of those who are careful is to wait 6 hours.
  Interestingly, the common German custom is to wait 3 hours.

So while all agree that there is a definite Rabbinic obligation to wait
between eating meat and milk, there are different opinions as to how long
one must wait. For Sefardim who follow the ruling of Shulchan Aruch,
waiting 6 hours is an absolute obligation. For Ashkenazim, who follow the
ruling of the Rama, the obligation ends once one cleans out one?s mouth and
recites a bracha acharona. Waiting one hour, three hours, or six hours are
different customs.

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Message: 4
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 14:33:48 +0000
[Avodah] Asking a Non-Jew to Perform Melacha Part 1

Please see


The author is  Rabbi Shmuel Stein, originally from Brooklyn, is a talmid of
Mesivta and Yeshiva Torah Temimah, Yeshivas Yagdil Torah in Eretz Yisroel
and Bais Medrash Govoha. Rabbi Stein teaches the popular Wednesday evening
In Hilchos Shabbos Shiur and writes a review sheet which is disseminated
each week before Shabbos. He organizes the Kollel?s youth programs
including Masmidei Erev and Miami Masmidim program. Rabbi Stein is the new
resource director at Yeshiva Elementary school and teaches at Mechina of
South Florida.



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Message: 5
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 07:03:58 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Reading Newspapers and Other secular Literature

[Micha wrote:]
> On 11/1/2018 7:11 PM, [RnTK] via Avodah wrote:
>: The Levanon and the Magid were both Torah publications. So no, the
>: Netziv's Shabbos relaxation did not consist of reading maskilishe
>: newspapers!> HaMagid was an shomer Shabbos  Haskalishe  newspaper.

> About my earlier mention of the Netziv's Zionism, both were Zionist
> papers.

I have never looked at these papers so I have no idea what their content
is like.

If their content was anything like what today's so-called Torah
publications (Yated, HaModiya, etc) are like, much or even most of their
content was similar to what any other newspaper put out. These papers all
write about the daily news with some restrictions on sexual content In
addition to the regular content, they have some additional Torah based
articles. But these articles are definitely the minority of the content.

So if the papers that the Netziv read were anything like today's papers,
he read mainly the news and in addition maybe some other Torah-based

I don't think of these papers as being Torah publications, rather they
are party newspapers that include some Torah".

I would ask a different question though: What constitutes a Torah
publication? Does it have to deal with parshat shavua, Gemara, mussar,
exclusively? Would reading about an opinion piece, written by a rabbi,
on world affairs constitute Torah? Rav Kook regularly wrote news
columns. What about a mixture of Torah and news? How much of each?
Is the content of each article reviewed to make sure that it doesn't
violate the laws of lashon ha-rah?

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Message: 6
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 17:22:56 +0000
[Avodah] Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII)

The following is from part of  RSRH's commentary on Bereishis 25:27

27 When the lads grew up, Esav was a man who understood hunting,
a man of the field, and Ya?akov was a totally dedicated man, living in tents.

Our Sages never hesitate to point out to us the errors and
shortcomings, both great and small, of our forefathers, and precisely
thus they make Torah great and glorious, heightening its instructiveness
for us (see Commentary above, 12:10).

On our verse, too, an observation made by our Sages indicates that
the sharp contrast between the two grandsons of Avraham was caused
not only by their natural tendencies, but also by mistakes in their upbringing
(Bereshis Rabbah 63:10). As long as they were little, no one
paid attention to the differences in their hidden natures (see v. 24); they
were given the same upbringing and the same education. Their parents
overlooked the cardinal principle of education: 'chanoch lanar al pi darco,
?Bring up each child in accordance with his own way? (Mishlei 22:6).
Each child should be guided in accordance with the path intended
especially for him, the path that suits the qualities and tendencies latent
in the depths of his personality, and thus he should be educated, both
as a man and as a Jew. The great Jewish task is basically one, but the
ways of its fulfillment are manifold and diverse, as human character
traits and paths of life are manifold and diverse.


Precisely for this reason, each child must be brought up al pi darco;
educate him to the one great goal, according to his own unique way,
in keeping with his potential. To attempt to educate a Ya?akov and an
Esav together in the same classroom, in the same routines and in the
same manner, to raise both of them for a life of study and contemplation,
will inevitably mean to ruin one of the two. A Ya?akov will draw
from the well of wisdom with ever-increasing interest and desire,
whereas an Esav will hardly be able to wait for the day when he can
throw away the old books and, together with them, a great life-mission,
of which he was taught in a one-sided manner, totally unappealing to
his nature.

For much more on this topic see

Lessons From Jacob and Esau<https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/lessons_jacob_esau_col_vii.pdf>
(Collected Writings VII)


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