Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 108

Fri, 21 Sep 2018

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zalman Alpert
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:08:07 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Nusach Ashkenaz in the Center of Chasidic

[Edited RYL's post to be more readable in digest format. I therefore
left the quote in, in full. -micha]

> *Conclusion*

> The adoption by the Chasidism of a new nusach hatefillah, in place of the
> traditional Nusach Ashkenaz, was apparently a later development in the
> movement, said to be from the time of the Maggid of Mezrich, rather than
> from R. Israel Baal Shem Tov, who is called its founder.

> There is much difference of opinion and variation among Chasidim as
> to what the exact text of this nusach should be. Among many Chasidim,
> including very large and significant Chasidic groups, to this very day,
> important segments and elements of Nusach Ashkenaz surprisingly still persist,
> even at the heart of their tefillos.

> For more please see <http://bit.ly/2QHFjZc>
> https://treasuresofashkenaz.wordpress.com/....

Let me add that I was told that a siddur that the BESHT used is in the
Chabad library in Crown Heights and it is Nusach Ashkenaz.

All you write is true but Sefard was the nusach with Lurianic kavanoth
Even kabbalistic people and groups like Reb Noson Adler of FFMand the
Broder kluiz used the sefatd nusach

While the Besht was alive chasidim were not organizationally a movement the
concept of tishen,Rebbe,yerusha zaddik were all not really fully developed
The Magid gave the movement some org uniformity and he AUTHORIZED RABBI
nusach and this was before RSZstarted Chabad,so Im not certain what your
driving at Sandz and other groups started in the mid 19th cen as as counter

Look at the sidurim of old groups like Stolin,Slonim Koidenov  and you see
sefarad and many Galician Hu(ngarian rebbes like Munkatcher davened Ari

In recent yrs even greater changes have been made to siddur ck out Lelever
and Bialer siddurim

Chechenov was to my knowledge the only group that davened Ashkenaz,

The time of the Magid is not a later period of chassidus

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Message: 2
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:24:44 +0000
[Avodah] How to put together a Lulav According to Chabad

This certainly different from the way I have seen it done.  YL

Please see the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-5vywJjkOc

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Message: 3
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:38:41 -0400
Re: [Avodah] kaddish yatom by non-mourner

On 20/09/18 17:55, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:27:48PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> : But there's no question that upsetting ones parents is a avera,
> : while saying kaddish is not any sort of chiyuv on any individual.
> But, going back to the OP:
>> Question: If the parents went to their Rav, would he answer the question
>> should they be finicky about it? If he would, what would his answer be?
> When it's a parent asking the question, should they be maqpdim?

As I answered earlier, this is not a question that can be answered in 
terms of "should".   All a rav could tell them is that al pi torah 
there's no reason to be upset, but it's a natural feeling that they need 
not be ashamed of or try to suppress if that is what they genuinely 
feel. A counsellor could help them explore what they actually feel, i.e. 
whether they really have a problem with it or they just think they do. 
And a rebbe could try to reassure them that nothing bad will result.

> So far I've heard tangential objections to the use of the word "finicky"
> and other digressions. So, I want to get back to this question...
> I would think it depends on the parents' hashkafah, in particular, how
> seriously that hashkafah takes "al tiftach peh lasatan" in comparison
> to allowing their son to help out his minyan.

But it *isn't* pesichas peh.  Nothing is being said to open the door to 
unwanted circumstances.  It's really a matter of a subconscious 
perception by the parent that the child is too comfortable with the 
prospect of being a yasom.

Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

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Message: 4
From: Jay F. Shachter
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:45:33 +0000 (WET DST)
Re: [Avodah] Numbers 20:11 and Exodus 17:6

>>  Exodus 17:6 describes water
>> coming from a tsur, nearly 40 years earlier, but that was not an
>> occasion when Moshe sinned.  The Zohar was clearly and obviously
>> referring to Numbers 20:11 and not to Exodus 17:6, so your question
>> astonishes me.
> On the contrary, if this were so then this Zohar should have been in
> Bamidbar, not in Shemos!

This is fairly put.  The truth is that I did not read the cited Zohar.
I read an article posted by a member of this mailing list, who cited a
Zohar, and asserted that it supported the proposition that by using
the word "tsur" in Shirath Ha'azinu, Moshe was alluding to his sin.
Inasmuch as his sin (in Numbers 20:11) involved a sela`, not a tsur,
this caused great astonishment.  If, however, it was not the Zohar
that failed to notice the distinction between "sela`" and "tsur", but,
rather, the member of this mailing list citing the Zohar who failed to
notice the distinction, then the astonishment disappears.  Perhaps
that is what I should have assumed to begin with.

                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 N Whipple St
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784   landline
                                (1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"

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Message: 5
From: Ben Bradley
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:07:22 +0000
Re: [Avodah] Eating on Yom Kippur

Chana Luntz wrote:

'so here would seem to be a case where there was unquestionably a chashash

and I can't see how I can be described as anything other than a choleh,
but the rabbi/doctor was clearly convinced that stopping taking the
antibiotics for 25 hours was not a real risk - with the corollary being
that I shouldn't take them over yom kippur!!'

That's	a situation which fits a fairly classic model of physical symptoms
and definable illness making you, presumably, a choleh in hilchos YK. So I
presume that had you felt that you had to eat for fear of becoming
dangerously ill then OC 618:1 would apply to you and you could have eaten
against medical opinion.
The problem is the non-classic cases as I mentioned, where the illness is not objectively definable. What happens to the category of choleh then?

Incidentally, I'm surprised to hear that you were told not to take antibiotics on YK since it's easily possible to do so without any issur of achila at all.


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Message: 6
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:34:39 +0000
[Avodah] Taking Down a Succah During Chol Moed

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

Q. I will be going away for the last days of Sukkos, and I do not need my Sukkah anymore. Can I take it down on Chol Hamoed before I leave?

A. The Gemara (Sukkah 9a) derives from the verse (Vayikra 23:34) ?The Chag
of Sukkos shall be seven days for Hashem? that just as a Korban Chagiga
(alluded to by the word ?chag? which is seemingly superfluous) is
sanctified to Hashem, so too a Sukkah becomes sanctified to Hashem.
Shulchan Aruch (OC 638:1) writes that the s?chach and walls of a Sukkah may
not be used for any other purpose during the chag. For example, one may not
pull a splinter from the wood of the Sukkah to use as a toothpick. Even if
the Sukkah fell down, one may not benefit from the wood until after Sukkos.
It is not clear from Shulchan Aruch whether one may take down a Sukkah if
no one will benefit from it. Sefer Ikrei HaDat (OC 2:68) discusses this
question and concludes that taking down a Sukkah is ?bizui mitzvah?
(belittling of the mitzvah) and therefore it may only be taken down if
there is a special necessity. Shoel Umaishiv (4:3:28) also seems to imply
that this is not permitted. He writes that one 
 may not 
 even take s?chach off of one Sukkah to place on another. However, Rav
 Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l (Minchas Shlomo II:54) and L?horos Noson
 (7:47) both point out that there is a clear implication from Shulchan
 Aruch (666:1) that one may take down a Sukkah, once it is no longer
 needed. The Shulchan Aruch states that in Israel, on Hoshanah Rabba, once
 the Sukkah is no longer needed, one may remove a large section of the
 s?chach in order to permit sitting in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres and not
 be concerned about ba?al tosif. Of course, one may not benefit from the
 s?chach until after Sukkos. (Note, dismantling a Sukkah on Chol Hamoed
 involves melacha. This would be permitted only for the sake of Yom Tov [if
 the labor is non-skilled], or to avoid a loss.)

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Message: 7
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 00:55:33 +0000
Re: [Avodah] kaddish yatom by non-mourner

> But it *isn't* pesichas peh.  Nothing is being said to open the door
> to unwanted circumstances.  It's really a matter of a subconscious
> perception by the parent that the child is too comfortable with the
> prospect of being a yasom.
> -- 
> I believe there is a disagreement as to whether a request like this is
> covered by kavod av. If it is not, why wouldn?t the child have the
> right to say he wants the mitzvah of getting the congregation to say
> yhei shmei rabba (or at least ask the parent to ask for guidance from
> their halachic authority)
Joel rich
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Message: 8
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:46:56 +0000
[Avodah] One Day or Two? What is a Chutznik In Eretz Yisrael

As is well known, in Eretz Yisroel only one day of Yom Tov is celebrated, exactly as it is written in the Torah; while in Chutz La?aretz each day of Y

As is well known, in Eretz Yisroel only one day of Yom Tov is celebrated,
exactly as it is written in the Torah; while in Chutz La?aretz each day of
Yom Tov of the Shalosh Regalim has long since become a ?two-day Yom Tov?.
But what is a ?Chutznik? or two-day Yom Tov keeper who happens to be in
Israel for Yom Tov (quite commonly yeshiva bochurim) to do? What are the
guidelines and parameters to enable changing over to observe one day of Yom
Tov like the natives?

To find out, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: One Day or Two?
What is a Chutznik in Eretz Yisrael to Do?<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsable.madmimi.com%2Fc%2F10500%3Fid%3D217613.1079.1.a8dfa29f67575fbdd7e0a7bac2faf07a&;data=02%7C01%7Cllevine%40stevens.edu%7C44974ba9f1f84c78054a08d61f9577da%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C0%7C636731124160277180&sdata=cAq0kSTS3h73F27MAH1nHksopyEYbDDeQLj1xgaOG%2Bo%3D&reserved=0>".
For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask.
Insights Into Halacha<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsable.madmimi.com%2Fc%2F10500%3Fid%3D217613.1080.1.6e23c73e48c6b28a227e8ac967787bfe&;data=02%7C01%7Cllevine%40stevens.edu%7C44974ba9f1f84c78054a08d61f9577da%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C0%7C636731124160287180&sdata=StETb9YdQ%2BDcH%2FILlyZ1pgYs%2Fklc0W2e0NUDXaTyxv8%3D&reserved=0>
is a weekly series of contemporary Halacha articles for Ohr Somayach. If
you enjoyed the article, please share it with friends and family. To sign
up to receive weekly articles simply email me.
kol tuv, Good Shabbos, and Good Yom Tov,
Yehuda Spitz


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