Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 20

Mon, 13 Feb 2017

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:13:15 -0500
Re: [Avodah] The Rabbi, the Rebbe, and the Messiah

On 10/02/17 07:49, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Please see the above URL for much more about a chapter in Jewish history
> that I was not at all aware of.  And, of course,  after the entire
> incident there was an attempt to suppress knowledge of it just as there
> was after the Shabbatai Tzvi affair.

THere was never any attempt to suppress knowledge of the SZ affair. And, 
as the other examples show (and the list is far from exhaustive) there 
was never any controversy about regarding ones rebbe as Moshiach, on the 
contrary it was a normal thing.  What was "suppressed" in this case is 
the *machlokes* that arose between the Sanze and Vizhnitze chassidim, 
just as many once-bitter fights among yidden were suppressed once they 
were resolved and are now almost forgotten.  (For instance, _Beis 
Rebbi_, a history of the Chabad rebbes, was published shortly after the 
machlokes between Lubavitch and Kopust had died down; the author 
mentions it very briefly and says, in effect, "let's not talk about 
unpleasant things, it's all over now".)

Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 14:47:04 -0500
Re: [Avodah] The Rabbi, the Rebbe, and the Messiah

On 10/02/17 13:09, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> There is a huge difference between the world of today and when these
> others were considered moshiach.  The difference is technology.  There
> are literally hundreds of videos of RMMS available,  and I think that
> these keep him "alive" for his followers.  He won't be forgotten in the
> way the others were,  and hence,  IMO,  there is more to worry about.

The Baal Shem Tov was forgotten?!  All the others who were thought to be 
Moshiach were forgotten?!

Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

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Message: 3
From: elazar teitz
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 19:08:33 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Hair dyeing

     In an article cited on this topic,it was stated in the name of Shevet
haLevi that "Another option is to shave off the white area."

     This is a misleading quote, giving the impression that it is permitted
to shave off only white hairs -- which is explicitly prohibited by the
g'mara.  What Rav Wozner permitted was to shave off the entire area
*containing* the white hairs; i.e., to shave off the entire area, including
the black hairs contained therein.

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Message: 4
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 00:18:06 +0000
Re: [Avodah] Tu B'Shevat Seder

Why isn't the Yavneh Minyan concerned about the possible Sabbatian origins
of this seder?	Has its rabbi delved into this and determined that Hemdas
Yamim is not a Sabbatian sefer?  And if he did,  what is the basis of his
conclusion given that many gedolim and academics are convinced that this
sefer was written by Nasan HaGazi?


From: Saul Guberman <saulguber...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 11:19 AM
To: Professor L. Levine; The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
Cc: avo...@aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tu B'Shevat Seder

You are welcome to come the the seder at Yavneh Minyan of Flatbush
(Veretsky Yeshiva at 4:35).  We have it during seudah 3.  Our seder is a
combo of the 2 you list below.	The main change that we have is that we
wash first so that we start eating before shkiah.

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Message: 5
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 23:52:21 +0200
[Avodah] Rav Kook and splitting off


Article summary:

Rav Kook on the Orthodox community splitting from the secular/Reform 
communities in Europe. If the chose is between splitting and somehow 
keeping the peace Rav Kook completely rejected the Hirschian idea of 
splitting. Not only did he reject the idea, Rav Kook couldn't even 
understand how anyone could entertain the idea. Such ideas could only be 
the result of the damage the galut has done to us.

Rav Kook brought two stories from the Tanach to illustrate his point:

1) HaMelech Shlomo and the two women claiming the baby. The woman 
willing to have the baby cut in half doesn't really care about the baby. 
That position comes from a "You hurt me, I'll hurt you back" position. 
Taking that position, even if the pain the person may be feeling is 
justified, removes someone from a leadership position.

2) Cutting off from the Am is in Rav Kook's opinion equivalent to 
Amalek's attack on us. My translation: There is no end to the physical 
and spiritual damage caused by splitting the Nation into parts.  . . 
.This imaginary split (me: because in reality we can't be split?) 
undermines the entire holy foundation,  replicating Amalek's targeting 
the weak, refugees from the An'naei Hakavod.

As long as someone or a group of Jews are willing to identify with Clal 
Yisrael, they're still in.

One can argue if Rav Kook was correct in his approach that keeping 
rasha'im in the Clal is a smart or effective way of influencing them. 
However, splitting brings with it its own problems, all of which we see 

I don't want to get too political in an Avodah post but this voice is 
really lacking in much of the OO debates.


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Message: 6
From: via Avodah
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 02:40:33 -0500
[Avodah] Resurrecting the re'em?

"Cows  Once as Big as Elephants May Soon Roam Europe" 

Standing  nearly as tall as an elephant, the aurochs grazed for 250,000 
years until its  extinction in 1627. But its story may not end there: 
Scientists say they are  close to resurrecting the ?supercow,? once the largest land 
mammal in Europe,  reports CNN. In search of herbivores to maintain land 
areas at risk of becoming  barren, geneticists began breeding aurochs 
descendants with similar cattle  breeds in 2008 and found they could ?produce 
animals far closer to the aurochs  than we would have expected,? says Ronald 
Goderie of the Tauros Project.  Fourth-generation beasts have now been introduced 
in Croatia, Spain, Portugal,  the Czech Republic, and Romania, with 
promising results. 
?We  see progress not only in looks and behavior but also in 
de-domestication of the  animals,? says Goderie, noting one herd has learned to defend 
itself against  wolves. The hope is that they will become part of the ecosystem 
to maintain land  for other animals.  
--end  quote-- 
Strangely  enough, Hitler hired scientists to try to back-breed the aurochs 
because he  thought a huge, powerful animal would be somehow more "Aryan" 
than your regular  cow!   
Why did the  latest attempt to resurrect the aurochs pique my interest?  
Because many  scholars believe that the aurochs, a huge animal that went 
extinct only a  few hundred years ago, is the "re'em" mentioned in several places 
in  Tanach.   
See the  wikipedia entry on re'em: 
A re'em is an  animal mentioned nine times in the Hebrew Bible (Job 
39:9-10, Deuteronomy 33:17, Numbers 23:22 and 24:8; Psalms 22:21, 29:6 and 92:10;  
and Isaiah 34:7) and variously  translated as a unicorn or a  wild ox. It 
was first identified in modern times with  the aurochs by Johann Ulrich  
Duerst who discovered it was based on the Akkadian  cognate rimu, meaning Bos 
primigenius, the aurochs, progenitor  of cattle.  
--end  quote-- 
Also  see this pdf article: "Exotic Shofars" by R' Natan Slifkin, a 
fascinating piece  about various animals whose horns have been or could be used as  
shofars.  It includes beautiful pictures.  Around page 17-18 he  discusses 
the likely identity of the Biblical re'em and makes a lively and  convincing 
case for the aurochs. 
If you don't  read the whole pdf at least look at the pictures and read the 
aurochs  pages.  It is a rewarding read. 
I'm posting  this to Avodah for scholarly comments and to Areivim for 
social and  cultural feedback.

--Toby Katz

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Message: 7
From: saul newman
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 19:58:07 -0800
[Avodah] 7 nekiim and DL


some women apparently with to go  back to biblical practice
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Message: 8
From: Cantor Wolberg
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 21:35:38 -0500
[Avodah] Yitro

At the end of World War 1, at the Versailles Peace Conference, 
President Woodrow Wilson, idealist and dreamer that he was
proposed his famous Fourteen Points which he thought would end wars,
impart standards of morality, etc. One of his contemporaries, French 
Prime Minister, Georges Clemenceau (nicknamed ?The Tiger of Paris?) 
rose and remarked: ?Mr. Wilson, aren?t you more strict than Moses who
proposed Ten Points only and you propose Fourteen??  The gentle Wilson
replied: ?My dear Clemenceau, if the world would have observed the Ten Points
of Moses there would be no need for my Fourteen Points.?
People of all faiths throughout the centuries have recognized the Ten Commandments
as the foundation of civilized life. 

It is quite interesting that the gematria of Moshe Rabbeinu is exactly 613.

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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 17:15:50 -0500
[Avodah] Food in the desert questions

1- In shul, I was asked about the slav. In this week's parashah (16:12-13), it
is sent lekhat-chilah, as the nightly food that is part of the RSBO's

So what's the big todo in Baha'aloekha (ch. 11)?

The rest are from a motz"sh email:

: Manna was provided for the people.  What did the animals eat?

3 In the mishkan, a mincha offering was brought.  other offerings too.  Some
: required flour and oil.  Where did they come from?  If they kept planting
: olive trees, then they were always subject to orlah.  People ate matzah (I
: guess) every year, along with marror.  Where was it grown?

: For a rock to produce enough water for 2 million + people, and then lots of
: livestock,it must have been quite a gusher.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

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Message: 10
From: saul newman
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 19:32:43 -0800
[Avodah] aguda yarchei kalla

http://www.aiayk.org/shiurim/  program and videos . topics were daled minim
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Message: 11
From: saul newman
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 20:06:56 -0800
[Avodah] etrog genetics


all analyzed species were at  least 95% related, whether moroc , yemen,
calabria, or israel...
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Message: 12
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 05:59:38 +0000
Re: [Avodah] aguda yarchei kalla

> http://www.aiayk.org/shiurim/ program and videos . topics were daled
> minim related

See here for review of English shiurim:

Kol tuv
Joel Rich

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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 06:05:43 -0500
Re: [Avodah] etrog genetics

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 08:06:56PM -0800, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/40/7/1963.full.pdf+html
: all analyzed species were at  least 95% related, whether moroc , yemen,
: calabria, or israel...

Since grafting doesn't change the genetics of the fruit seeds, this is
measuring cross-breeding more than eliminating murkav altogether.

The article is more that the search for esrogim that were never grafted
did not push different Jewish communities to use different fruit.

But what does "95% related" mean? 

They say that out of 190 genetic fragments, 160 were monomorphic,
while 30 showed polymorphism. But I don't know enough genetics or
botony to know how strongly that indicates a single species.

Humans differ from eachother by about .1% of our DNA and if you go
as far as 1% out, you could be calling humans, chimps and bonobos all
one species. (In "The Science of Discworld" the authors make a case
for calling our bodies pan narans -- the storytelling chimp, rather
than homo sapien.)

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Life isn't about finding yourself
mi...@aishdas.org        Life is about creating yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Bernard Shaw
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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