Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 138

Tue, 01 Nov 2016

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 18:01:56 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] running creates electricity


On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:34:28PM +0200, Simon Montagu wrote:
: R. Waldenberg's senif that "there is no precedent for these sparks in the
: labor performed during the construction and functioning of the tabernacle"
...

I presume the ZE means that unlike historical cases like sparks thrown by
a burning object, electrical sparks are no glowing substance; there is
no material glowing. Sparks in a smith's forge are really tiny gechalos
shel mateches. It's only nitzotzos by homonym.

: presumably still applies to solar cells, triboelectric nanogenerators, and
: elongated supercapacitors.

That would have to be proven casewise. Eg no one ran electricity through
a wire until it glowed, but it's still a gacheles shel mateches.

I still think what you waid was true, since the ZE doesn't hold of molid,
he would presumably have no problem with any of those, nor batteries. But
I wanted to highlight a skipped step.

(I was primarily posting to explain what I think the ZE means by emphasizing
the lack of parallel in building the mishkan.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
mi...@aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites



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Message: 2
From: Gil Winokur
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:34:46 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot


Does anyone have any specific aviation technical information regarding 
the change at Ben Gurion airport that triggered the ruling?  Any change 
in flight path or runway use must be reflected in a NOTAM [Notice to 
Airmen] and would involve one or more specific SID [Standard Instrument 
Departure] procedures.
A list of departure charts can be found at 
http://en.caa.
gov.il/index.php?option=com_content&;view=article&id=414&Ite
mid=278 

Active NOTAMS can be found at 
http://en.caa.
gov.il/index.php?option=com_content&;view=article&id=468&Ite
mid=331
Can anyone provide a NOTAM number and the affected SID?  As I read the 
active NOTAMS,   the only matching one is A0734/16, which reads as follows:
A0734/16 1611010001 to 1611172159 RWY INT 08/12 CLSD, DUE WIP. RWY 21
AVBL FOR LDG AND TKOF. RWY 12 AVBL FOR TKOF FM W4.
Simply put, because of construction, the intersection of runways 8 and 
12 is closed.  That also closes runway 26 (facing west) which includes 
that intersection to be closed, forcing all takeoffs to be from runways 
12 or 21.
Runway 21's SID is known as PURLA 1G, and takes aircraft over a point 
"SIX" at 31? 59? 38? N  034? 46? 19? E and then on a heading of 282? 
which runs right over the middle of the Holon cemetery.
What puzzles me is that the MERVA departure from runway 26 does the same 
thing.  Runway 12 which is still open has a SOLIN SID that avoids the 
area entirely.

AIUI, kohanim currently fly based on a safek over which runway/SID will 
be used.  If so, it appears that safek is still in place as there is 
still an open runway with a departure route that avoids the area.
Also, as R' Mike Miller noted, large aircraft don't turn on a dime and 
there should also be a safek as to whether any given airplane will 
actually pass over the Holon cemetery or will miss it.

So what changed that resulted in this psak being issued?
-- 
Gil Winokur
gilwino...@usa.net



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Message: 3
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 18:50:07 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Matana Al M'nas L'hachzir


I had another idea a few days ago. I would like to suggest that mitzvas
chinuch does NOT require us to concoct halachic mechanisms to enable the
katan to do the mitzvos with all its details. Rather, it is totally
acceptable for a child to do a mitzvah in a partial manner, and the parent
is doing his chinuch thereby, provided that the parent explains this to the
child. Something along the lines of "You're still learning how to do it, so
even if you only do this much, that's great."

I'll give two examples of where we do exactly that: Older children who do a
partial fast on Yom Kippur. And children of any age who say a partial
Birkas Hamazon. An adult who would do such things is clearly not fully
yotzay, even b'dieved, but for kids it is acceptable, and one can find many
other examples. So perhaps it is fine for a katan to use a borrowed lulav
even on the first day (just as an adult can use it on Chol HaMoed)?

Akiva Miller
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Message: 4
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 09:45:00 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] Rav Melamed, Metal Pots, RMF Wine 1:6, Teshuvas


R Micha wrote that RMF proves that nosein ta'am is not an issue for stam
yeinam, such as sherry casks. His proof, bitul besheish - one part wine to
6 parts water is easily tastable.

One doesn't need bitul, because the gezeira of stam yeinam doesn't apply.

It seems that Reb Moshe disagrees with the RaShBa [used by the Kosher
certification agencies to not rely upon Bittul where the non-Kosher
component is deliberately added - itself a distortion of the RaShBa]
because the RaShBa's argument is that Chazal made their decrees in order to
promote social isolation and therefore it makes no sense to propose that if
the component is below a certain thresh-hold it should be Battel - the
decree must follow the purpose and apply in all circumstances unless it is
an inadvertent mixture.
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Message: 5
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:31:26 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] Shabbos: uprooting grass, motion sensors lights,


R E Turkel wrote re electric sparks on Shabbos - The Gemara in Masechet
Eruvin (100) ...... Paskened in the Shulchan Aruch (336:3) that one may
walk on grass during Shabbat because Rabbi Shimon permits activities, where
there is no intent to perform Melacha even if it may result in a
Melacha (forbidden activity).

One may even walk barefoot, despite the greater likelihood of uprooting the
grass from the ground.
see http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1088 for more info.

This is true but it misses the broader picture - when we have no benefit
from the Melacha, Lo Nicha Leih - the action is not defined as Melacha
altogether. It's even less than Eino Tzericha LeGufo. Tearing grass out of
the ground is not an issue unless there is some benefit even though there
is no intent. The imagery of dragging a table or chair across the garden
and making a furrow - the classic illustration of Davar SheEin MisKavein -
requires some clarification - does this occur in the middle of a moonless
night or is it a blindfolded person who is pulling the chair; I mean why
not turn around and have a look to see if in fact there is a Charits, a
furrow in the ground??

Obviously, there is no need to observe if a furrow is being dug because
even though he benefits if there will be a furrow [unlike our gardens where
it would be deemed to be MeKalKel - destructive] he is not intending to
make a furrow. So in essence the Halacha says we do not care if there is a
constructive useful furrow dug by your dragging as long as that is not your
intention you may leave your blindfold in place.

But if we actually SEE the furrow being dug, we must stop. When I say we, I
mean the fellow doing the action - I dont think bystanders need concern
themselves with the digging if they see it. WHY because he actually
benefits from that furrow.

Now, activating a motion sensor light during Shabbos is permitted by almost
all Poskim, IF we are walking down the street and do not intend to activate
the light, even though we KNOW the light is there and WILL BE activated,
because we get no real benefit from the Melacha. Indeed, if we are
cautiously inching along a dark path and a light is activated [even by a G
in order to assist us and we did not ask or allude for assistance] we must
shut our eyes.
WHY because it's Lo Nicha Leih - we get nothing out of the Melacha, we can
walk quite comfortably even when the light is not activated; UNLIKE the
case of dragging the chair and making the useful furrow.

AS A THEORETICAL QUERY - It follows that in a well illuminated kitchen,
where all items in the refrigerator can be readily identified and selected
even when the refrigerator light is NOT ACTIVATED, there ought to be no
reason why one who has not deactivated his refrigerator light may not open
the fridge during Shabbos? JUST ASKING, YOU KNOW
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 20:25:23 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot


On 31/10/16 17:34, Gil Winokur via Avodah wrote:
> Can anyone provide a NOTAM number and the affected SID?  As I read the
> active NOTAMS,   the only matching one is A0734/16, which reads as follows:
> A0734/16 1611010001 to 1611172159 RWY INT 08/12 CLSD, DUE WIP. RWY 21
> AVBL FOR LDG AND TKOF. RWY 12 AVBL FOR TKOF FM W4.
> Simply put, because of construction, the intersection of runways 8 and
> 12 is closed.  That also closes runway 26 (facing west) which includes
> that intersection to be closed, forcing all takeoffs to be from runways
> 12 or 21
 > [...]
> So what changed that resulted in this psak being issued?

This is definitely the notice in question, since the dates match 
exactly.   Now you say that runway 26, which is closed for those 17 
days, goes over the cemetery, and runway 12, which remains open, 
doesn't.  It appears that the beis din was given the opposite 
information.  If your info is correct then someone with access to the 
beis din should inform them, both so they correct the psak and so they 
get better sources of information in future.


-- 
Zev Sero                Hit the road, Jack
z...@sero.name           but please come back once more



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Message: 7
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 00:03:09 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot


R' Zev Sero wrote:

> Kohanim are not allowed within four amos of an unfenced grave, lest
> they step over it, but if there's a fence between them and the grave
> they can go right up to it.

Okay, I can understand that part.

> Thus a kohen may walk in a cemetery if he is carrying a fence around
> himself that separates him from the graves he passes between.

This is the part I don't get. What good does the fence do if he is carrying
it? How does a portable fence insure that he won't step over a grave?

A portable fence might be effective in establishing distinct reshuyos, but
it's not much good as a ma'akeh.

Akiva Miller
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Message: 8
From: Marty Bluke
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:08:28 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot


Here is a link to an article in the RJJ Journal Volume 15 Tumeah of a Kohen:
Theory and Practice http://download.yutorah.org/1988/1053/735713.pdf which
touches on this issue
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Message: 9
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 23:53:58 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] running creates electricity


R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Assuming one can buy a garment that doesn't have an assur device,
> and is only used to charge a battery that isn't used until after
> Shabbos. If the charging is mutar, then the clothing is a keli
> shemelakhto leheter, and why would it be muqtzah?

In your example, I would think that the battery charger would be an example
of an "assur device". I would imagine that a discernible amount of heat is
generated in this process. And even you can find a way to say that no
melacha happens when the battery is charging, it is still hachana -
preparation for after Shabbos.

If one has some sort of device that uses this battery, and the device can
be used on Shabbos, then you've avoided this problem of hachana, but you've
introduced a different problem, that of repairing. In other words, charging
such a device is at least as problematic as winding a mechanical watch that
has stopped.

On the other hand, if I remember correctly, there's a difference between a
watch that has run down and stopped (which is now considered broken, and
winding it would be a forbidden repair), and wind-up spring-powered toys.
The normal use of such toys is to wind them up, play for a while, and the
spring runs down; because this is the normal pattern, the powered-down
spring is not considered broken, and so winding it on Shabbos is not a
forbidden repair.

If the device you're powering with this shirt is similar to a watch, then
you've got problems. But if it is more like the toys, then maybe there's a
slim chance that the shirt might be okay for Shabbos power.

Akiva Miller
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 05:50:15 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Rav Melamed, Metal Pots, RMF Wine 1:6, Teshuvas


On Tue, Nov 01, 2016 at 09:45:00AM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: R Micha wrote that RMF proves that nosein ta'am is not an issue for stam
: yeinam, such as sherry casks. His proof, bitul besheish - one part wine to
: 6 parts water is easily tastable.
: 
: One doesn't need bitul, because the gezeira of stam yeinam doesn't apply.

IM YD 1:62-63. The question was sent to him by REMT's father, R Pinchas
Teitz. Someone in Elizabeth started a kosher whiskey business. RMF's
answer was that it wasn't necessary mei'iqar hadin, but tavo alav berakhah
since he aids the ballei nefesh who should still avoid such whiskey.

Oh, and the 1:6 is the Rama against the SA -- YD 134:13.

: It seems that Reb Moshe disagrees with the RaShBa ...
: because the RaShBa's argument is that Chazal made their decrees in order to
: promote social isolation and therefore it makes no sense to propose that if
: the component is below a certain thresh-hold it should be Battel - the
: decree must follow the purpose and apply in all circumstances unless it is
: an inadvertent mixture.

I'm missing something. RMF is saying it's not bitul, but a liquid
that isn't yayin and therefore not subject to the gezeira. How can
that statement contradict a rule in the Rashba about bitul? Does the
Rashba explicitly include the case where intentionally added thing is
stam yeinam?

(Where RMF may be holding like someone other than the Rashba is in YD
2:41.) The OU describes how they understand and implement this pesaq
at
<https://oukosher.org/blog/kosher-professional
s/lo-basi-ella-lorer-ain-mivatlin-issur-lichatchila/>

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The same boiling water
mi...@aishdas.org        that softens the potato, hardens the egg.
http://www.aishdas.org   It's not about the circumstance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but rather what you are made of.



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Message: 11
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 21:12:19 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] Rav Melamed, Metal Pots, RMF Wine 1:6, Teshuvas


RMF Paskens like the Rama against the SA -- YD 134:13 (Yet he still
encourages, Tavo Alav Beracah, since he aids the BsAlei Nefesh who avoid
such whiskey - truly irrelevant but why not chuck it in?)

The RaShBa holds that wine is NEVER Battel, it never loses its identity as
wine because although by normal Halacha there is Bittul, in this case where
Chazall promulgated this to promote social isolation, it MAKES NO SENSE
(this is the RaShBa's own idea, he finds support from the way he learns the
Sugya of Gevinas Alum) to propose that there should be Bittul unless it is
an inadvertent mixture.

When RMF explains that at 1:6 it's not Yayin, that means it's Battel, it's
lost it's identity. Had RMF subscribed to the RaShBa, there would be
nothing to consider - the point is, it is incumbent to retain the social
isolationist policy.

The Rashba explicitly discussed the case where wine is intentionally added.
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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 06:08:37 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot


On Tue, Nov 01, 2016 at 12:03:09AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: This is the part I don't get. What good does the fence do if he is carrying
: it? How does a portable fence insure that he won't step over a grave?
: 
: A portable fence might be effective in establishing distinct reshuyos, but
: it's not much good as a ma'akeh.

This was a recent AhS Yomi for me, see AhS YD 371:27 <http://j.mp/2euVLbL>
(wikisource.org).

I would think ma'akeh is an overstatement; we are relying on the kohein's
awareness, the marker need not make his approach harder. I say that
because either a fence or a trench -- of any width -- would allow a
kohein to come within 4 tefachim of the qever instead of 4 amos.

I wouldn't call a 1 etzba (or less) wide trench a "ma'akeh", it created
the wrong implications (we need something that stops him) in my head.

In either case, I share your confusion about how a mobile wall would help.
You get the 2 reshuyos to allow it deOraisa, but you don't cover the
gezeira to avoid accidental negi'ah or ohel.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Problems are not stop signs,
mi...@aishdas.org        they are guidelines.
http://www.aishdas.org           - Robert H. Schuller
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 06:17:06 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] running creates electricity


On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:53:58PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: In your example, I would think that the battery charger would be an example
: of an "assur device". I would imagine that a discernible amount of heat is
: generated in this process. And even you can find a way to say that no
: melacha happens when the battery is charging, it is still hachana -
: preparation for after Shabbos.

1- I really doubt triboelectric clothing would generate enough power to
produce heat you could feel. Even if you could combine it with solar
cell clothes or those that use body heat to produce power (a news story
in 2012).

2- Would it be hachanah even though you are still wearing the clothing as
clothing?

This touches on my fitbit question of a short while ago. Say you had
a fitbit like device that posed no halakhic question other than this:
After Shabbos you could push a button to see how far you walked or how
well you slept.

(A real fitbit has lights that you couldn't avoid turning on or off. A
vivofit's display shuts off when not moving for a while -- but will go
on as soon as you bring your hand up to look at the display. Etc... So
this question is more hypothetical than real.)

To my mind that's a strong hachanah case. Something we didn't raise then.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 14
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 21:28:19 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] more RaShBa


In fact, that Mechaber, YD 134:13 IS THE RASHBA. See the BeEir HaGolah.

The Rama there, simply explains that this RaShBa who prohibits ANY food for
which the recipe calls for wine, no matter how small its proportion - is
only true where it's not Pogem.

The confusion emerges from the Mechaber who rules 134:5, that once you've
got 6 parts water to 1 part wine, it's Battel. And this too is sourced from
the RaShBa.
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