Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 162

Wed, 16 Dec 2015

• 1. Re: halacha and history (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Hallel - sung? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: halacha and history (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: halacha and history (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Re: halacha and history (Micha Berger)
• 6. halacha and history (Eli Turkel)
• 7. hallel sung (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: halacha and history (Lisa Liel)
• 9. halachah and history (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: Kosher Turkey and Women Rabbis and Mesorah (David Peters)
• 11. Rav Wolbe on Unity (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: halachah and history (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Halacha as a System and Deriving halachah for new situations (two subjects for the price of one!) (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Definition of a Mechalel Shabbos Befarhesya (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Definition of a Mechalel Shabbos Befarhesya (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 07:13:06PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: Actually the war was won many years later. Furthermore it seems that they
: entered Jerusalem earlier and waited until 25 Kislev to rededicate the
: mikdash. The 25th was picked because thats when the Greeks entered the
: Temple and also when Chaggai dedicated the second Temple.

... based on the belief that Zekhariah (contemporary to Chagai) said
this was the date of the dedication of the final BHMQ. Which may explain
the choice of navi for the hafatarah of Shabbos Chanukah.

(See R Menchaem Liebtag's take at
<http://etzion.org.il/vbm/english/chanuka/2chanpac.htm> although I
found that hunting for a thesis I was exposed to in HS. So I know
it's not RML's chiddush.)

Which, if qidsha leshaata qidsha le'asid lavo, is already fulfilled.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

On Wed, Dec 09, 2015 at 10:13:39PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
:> Responsively, I would think. Pesachim 119b says that this was
:> the custom in some medinos.

: Wouldn't that same Gemara be saying that it was *not* the custom in *other*
: medinos? ...

You deleted much of my proof, though.

But then names amora'im who created pairs out of Hallel in order to
accomodate the responsive reading -- and we today repeat those pesuqim.
So yes, Pesachim says yeish veyeish, but then I attempted to prove from
Mes Sukkah and Rashi which yeish we all hold like from other sources.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 12/16/2015 1:59 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Well, *the* YKG, who becomes the poster child for not trusting oneself
> until the day of death, might not be the best complement.

> Also, he became a tzeduqi before passing the baton. Which means it has
> to be someone who lived during or after after the Tzadoq...
> It doesn't leave us much room to place him well before Matisyahu.

Due to the number of Kohanim Gedolim named Yochanan, it's possible that 
some YKGs weren't the same person as other YKGs.

For example, we know that Yochanan Hyrcanus became a Tzeduki, and he was 
the grandson of Matitiyahu (and great grandson of another YKG).

Lisa

R' Micha Berger told the stories of several people who purchased the
position of Kohen Gadol, and then wrote:

> But none of these people were kohanim gedolim, doing the
> role al pi halakhah.

I thought that this is a binary status: either one *is* a kohen gadol, or
he *isn't*. Are you saying that they were kohen gadol but didn't deserve
the position? Or are you saying that their violations caused them to lose
the title (sort of like how a regular kohen who married a divorcee is no
longer allowed the privileges of kehuna).

Akiva Miller
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On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 09:43:11PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
:> But none of these people were kohanim gedolim, doing the
:> role al pi halakhah.
: 
: I thought that this is a binary status: either one *is* a kohen gadol, or
: he *isn't*. Are you saying that they were kohen gadol but didn't deserve
: the position? Or are you saying that their violations caused them to lose
: the title (sort of like how a regular kohen who married a divorcee is no
: longer allowed the privileges of kehuna).

I am saykng that Josephus could likely list the high priests who served
while the Miyavnim had control of the BHMQ and were using it as a temple
to some G-d - Zeus amalgam deity.

During that era, while people like Jason and Menileus called themselves
"kohein gadol" those loyal to Torah might have appoimted someone to be our
real KG even though he had no tahor BHMQ to serve in. I was suggesting
that this was Matisyahu's role, amd why Al haNisim calls him KG even
though he wasn't on the list of succession.

But it is entirely my own guesswork, a variation of the idea that AhM
means "a great kohein" rather than the title "Kohein Gadol".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507

<<1.  Could it be that Yochanan "kohen gadol" doesn't mean "High Priest"
but
rather "a great priest"?

2. Could it be that Josephus' list of Kohanim Gedolim is incomplete  and
inaccurate?  Highly likely, I'd say.

3. Could it be that Matisyahu became Kohen Gadol -- or Acting Kohen Gadol
-- only for a short while, just the time it took to purify the BHM'K and
maybe  for a short time thereafter?  And if so, the fact that he  formerly
lived in Modi'in is irrelevant, because when he purified the BHM'K  (and
acted
as Kohen Gadol) he was necessarily in Jerusalem. >>

1. Would indeed solve many problems if one is willing to make that
translation

2. Am not sure it is highly likely but at least a reasonable possibility

3.  I don't think that Mattisyahu was alive by time they conqurered
Jerusalem.
Even Yehuda didnt become high priest

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<http://www.flipsnack.com/79987ECF8D6/522.html See page 5. Rav Meir Cohen
attacks musical Hallel (and much of singing in shul), calling it a
complete distortion of what the Levi'im did (the rav calls the Levis'
song Avodah, not a method to raise spirits), a poor substitute for true
spirituality which only makes things worse.>>

Obviously Rav Meir Cohen is not a hasid. I douibt if people today sing in
imitation
of leviim. Music has always been part of spirituality. Prophets would
listen to music to reach the proper level, similarly for meditation.

On a personal level I have on rare occasions davened in a shul for Yomim
Noraim where they didnt sing any piyutim. I felt that my davening missed a
lot, that is part of my yomim noraim experience.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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We know there had to be backup KGs from Yoma.  The succession of KGs 
described in Ezra/Nechemia makes it pretty likely that this was often 
the son of the serving KG, but it didn't have to be.  So you could have 
a KG who didn't serve.

Lisa


On 12/16/2015 4:43 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> R' Micha Berger told the stories of several people who purchased the 
> position of Kohen Gadol, and then wrote:
>
> > But none of these people were kohanim gedolim, doing the
> > role al pi halakhah.
>
> I thought that this is a binary status: either one *is* a kohen gadol, 
> or he *isn't*. Are you saying that they were kohen gadol but didn't 
> deserve the position? Or are you saying that their violations caused 
> them to lose the title (sort of like how a regular kohen who married a 
> divorcee is no longer allowed the privileges of kehuna).

<<Well, *the* YKG, who becomes the poster child for not trusting oneself
until the day of death, might not be the best complement.

Also, he became a tzeduqi before passing the baton. Which means it has
to be someone who lived during or after after the Tzadoq who was the
student of Antignos ish Socho. (A 2nd Tzadoq in the same conversation.)
It doesn't leave us much room to place him well before Matisyahu.>>

As I previously brought down 3 possibilities are mentioned in the miforshim.
Using Micha's reasoning
and since the high priests after the time of Matisyahu are well known it
would seem the only possibility of John Hyrcanus.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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The Kamenetsky family is noheg not to eat turkey
(Even those in Israel, which has the highest per capita consumption of 
turkey in the world)
But I know of (at least) one member of the family who made a hatarat nedarim 
on this

David

    Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 12:30:07 -0500
    From: Prof. Levine
        I have been told about [a gadol] who did not eat turkey - <snip> Rav 
Yaakov Kamenetsky.
        I  am  sure  there  are others. 


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:44:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Bais Hamussar <baishamus...@gmail.com>
Subject: Dvar Torah # 506 - Vayigash

Bais Hamussar
Al sheim HaRav Shlomo Wolbe zt"l

After Yosef revealed himself to his brothers, he sent wagons to Cana'an to
bring his father and extended family to Mitzrayim. The Torah enumerates
all of Yaakov's descendants and ends with a tally of those mentioned:
"All the person[s] of Yaakov's household who came to Mitzrayim numbered
seventy."

Rashi, citing the Medrash, comments that while the Torah only enumerates
six of Eisav's descendants, the Torah refers to them in the plural:
"the people of his house" because the few people of his house all
served different gods. In contrast, Yaakov had seventy descendants and,
nevertheless, the Torah refers to them in the singular: "All the person
coming with Yaakov." Since they all served a single G-d, they are referred
to in the singular.

Rav Wolbe (Shiurei Chumash, Vayigash 46:26) explains that the description
of Bnei Yisrael as a singular unit was not meant to imply that they all
had the exact same outlook on the world. A large group of people who
all profess the exact same mindset in all areas of life is sometimes
found among people devoid of spirituality. Those with a connection to
spirituality will develop their individual talents and intellect into
a unique approach to life which will determine the way they think and
respond to any given situation.

Rather, Bnei Yisrael's quality of oneness was an expression of their
living in harmony with one another (after making amends with Yosef). They
loved each other and cared deeply about one another. Indeed, such
solidarity is only possible if all those involved are serving a single
G-d. When one finds a group of religious people who do not love and care
about each other and are oblivious to the plight of those around them,
it is a sign that they are not all serving a "single G-d." Such people
must be serving the "gods" of desire, haughtiness and honor, for if
they were truly serving Hashem then their service would breed love and
friendship and not the opposite.

What is the secret ingredient that threads its way through all those
who serve Hashem and fuses them into a single unit? It is precisely
their common desire to serve Hashem -- the single G-d -- which unites
them. One might be a fiery Chassid and his neighbor a mussar oriented
Litvak, but as long as they are focused on the same goal, then love and
friendship will reign. However, when personal desires sneak into their
spiritual pursuits it will automatically promote animosity since every
person has their own set of desires and preferences.

A difference in dress should not be the impetus for a lack of
harmony. Distinctions such as wearing a velvet or knitted kippah, a white
or blue shirt, a long or short jacket or a baseball cap or striemel,
are not grounds for feelings of animosity. Nor should one's nusach
ha'tefillah be a reason for enmity. If such differences irk a person,
he must check his GPS to determine what life goal he is pursuing. For
as Rav Meir Shapiro (the famed founder of Daf Yomi) put it, "Whether
davening Nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard or Eidut HaMizrach, everyone joins
together by Yehi chavod Hashem L'olam, because regardless of how one
gets there the ultimate goal of every Jew is to bring glory to Hashem!"

On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 02:31:08PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: As I previously brought down 3 possibilities are mentioned in the miforshim.
: Using Micha's reasoning
: and since the high priests after the time of Matisyahu are well known it
: would seem the only possibility of John Hyrcanus.

Well, if you buy into a different piece of my reasoning, that perhaps
those loyal to HQBH had their own appointed "kohein gadol" even though
a Misyavein held the title and served in a Zeusified temple, then you
could say that the Yochanan KG wasn't one from the list just as much as
I could suggest it's Mordchai-ben-Yochanan who was the "KG in exile",
(so to speak).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 03:22:08PM -0500, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
: RJR:
:> Do you view Halacha as a system that seeks a single ultimate
:> original truth(or a truth determined prior to a particular point in
:> Jewish history)

-- shitas haRambam --

:>                 or one focused on a chronologically monotonic
:> historical process ...

-- Rashi, Ritva, Ran, and any other rishon we've discussed in dozens
of prior iterations, except the Rambam.

:> If the latter, is this because this is what HKB"H commanded or
:> because the rabbis determined this to be how an effective legal
:> system must work?

Doesn't it have to be because HQBH gave us the system? Othewise,
why does the Tanur shel Akhnai story end with Him laughing "nitzchuni
banai"? And why would decisions about what would work override actual
miraculous evidence?

I am developing the theory that the reason for "lo bashamayim hi"
is because "befikha uvilvakha la'asoso". That just as all of Torah
is an elaboration of "mah desani lakh, lekhaverkha lo sa'avod" to
an extent beyond a human's ability to work out, the same is true
in the converse. Halakhah cannot be decided in shamayim, detached
from a heart that has a natural moral calling.

: RZL:
:> It's true that the amora (for example) did not necessarily have
:> the case in mind, especially if it involved a new invention he
:> probably did not anticipate. But nevertheless he did have in mind an
:> essential property (my Rebbi referred to this as the "gedder") that
:> determined his p'sak in the case he dealt with, which would also
:> determine the p'sak in the case he was not aware of.

RDR:
: I think both of these are too simplistic.  One of the complications
: of halacha is that one event in real life might be classified under
: many halachic rubrics...

Or gedarim.

However, we are asking about how to extapolate form a given statement
in the gemara, by a given amora (or unnamed voice).

I argued that it's possible the tanna never realized that two ideas
were separable, and now that we have come up with a way to make
something that has A without B, we have to decide which is primary.

RHS countered that one was, inherently.

I don't agree simply because I think that someone can conflate two
ideas and never notice -- even an amora. Particularly if there is no
nafqa mina for another 1500 years. But that was inherent in my
original statement.

IOW, the conversation was more about how do you bulid a ruberic / geder;
not how to decide given multiple geddarim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             How wonderful it is that
mi...@aishdas.org        nobody need wait a single moment
http://www.aishdas.org   before starting to improve the world.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Anne Frank Hy"d

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 05:30:22PM +0200, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
: On 12/10/2015 11:04 AM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: > Is it not true that the status of a Mechalel Shabbos BeFarhesya is not
: > so much a reflection upon the actual Aveira but upon the mindset?
: > The guy who smokes at home during Shabbos is ashamed to publicly
: > display his mutiny - at some level there is a degree of respect for
: > Shabbos...

: You could say that, but you could also compare it to geneiva/gezeila.
: 
: A guy who smokes at home during Shabbat is afraid of what people will say,
: but not of Hashem's judgment, while a guy who walks down the street on
: Shabbat smoking a cigar just doesn't really care.

I don't see the ddifference. Both of you are saying the MSbF is the
person who is not ashamed of his chilul Shabbos, even though every
Mechalel Shabbos is not afraid of Hashem's judgment.

Or at least, not His Judgment about chilul Shabbos. He could believe
that all good people go to heaven, and therefore his chilul Shabbos is
just giving up on the icing on the cake, overwhelmed by the other
stuff. I think that mindset is pretty common among our contemporaries.

But I am not surprised that if conversion requires both "ameikh ami,
veElokayikh Elokai", losing one's good standing requires not only sinning
in a way that brings into question the person's faith in Creation and/or
Matan Torah and/or TSBP but does so in a way that says they're also okay
not being counted in the observant community.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
mi...@aishdas.org        I have found myself, my work, and my God.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Helen Keller
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Micha, you are not correct to paraphrase my position as - the MSbF is not
ashamed of his Chilul Shabbos, even though every Mechalel Shabbos is not
afraid of Hashem's judgment

- I am saying that the Halachic definition of MChShB is deliberately
rebelling in a manner that shows the community that he cares not what they
think of him, Gd is not really the focus. Being Mechallel Shabbos was
chosen because at that time it truly represented that frame of mind.

Therefore these days people who are Mechallel Shabbos BeFarHesiya are not
to be Halachically defined as such.

All other considerations are peripheral and not relevant


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 05:30:22PM +0200, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
> : On 12/10/2015 11:04 AM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> : > Is it not true that the status of a Mechalel Shabbos BeFarhesya is not
> : > so much a reflection upon the actual Aveira but upon the mindset?
> : > The guy who smokes at home during Shabbos is ashamed to publicly
> : > display his mutiny - at some level there is a degree of respect for
> : > Shabbos...
>
> : You could say that, but you could also compare it to geneiva/gezeila.
> :
> : A guy who smokes at home during Shabbat is afraid of what people will
> say,
> : but not of Hashem's judgment, while a guy who walks down the street on
> : Shabbat smoking a cigar just doesn't really care.
>
> I don't see the ddifference. Both of you are saying the MSbF is the
> person who is not ashamed of his chilul Shabbos, even though every
> Mechalel Shabbos is not afraid of Hashem's judgment.
>
> Or at least, not His Judgment about chilul Shabbos. He could believe
> that all good people go to heaven, and therefore his chilul Shabbos is
> just giving up on the icing on the cake, overwhelmed by the other
> stuff. I think that mindset is pretty common among our contemporaries.
>
> But I am not surprised that if conversion requires both "ameikh ami,
> veElokayikh Elokai", losing one's good standing requires not only sinning
> in a way that brings into question the person's faith in Creation and/or
> Matan Torah and/or TSBP but does so in a way that says they're also okay
> not being counted in the observant community.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
> mi...@aishdas.org        I have found myself, my work, and my God.
> http://www.aishdas.org                - Helen Keller
> Fax: (270) 514-1507
>
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