Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 160

Mon, 14 Dec 2015

• 1. Selecting dayanim (Ben Waxman)
• 2. p'nei hakelev (Michael Poppers)
• 3. Re: halacha and history (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: Chizkiyahu's Seal ()
• 5. Re: halacha and history ()
• 6. Re: halacha and history (Eli Turkel)
• 7. chashmanoim (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: halacha and history (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Definition of a Mechalel Shabbos Befarhesya (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 10. Re: halacha and history (Lisa Liel)
• 11. Re: Is it Musar to Buy Chocolate? (Micha Berger)
• 12. Misunderstanding Mesorah: Turkeys and Women Rabbis (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: chashmanoim (Lisa Liel)

In Choshen Mishpat 25 (page 180 in the Machon Yerushalyim edition), the 
Beit Yosef quotes the Mordechai as saying:

"B'tzman hatzeh sh'machrichim et hadayanim lisheiv b'din al pi cherem 
haqehilot . . . "

"In our day we force dayanim to judge in court using community cherems . 
. . "

What does that mean???

Ben

In thread "ikveta demeshicha", RSN mentioned "failing leadership [pnai
hakelev]".  Just wondering if there could be any connection between the "*p'nei
hador kip'nei hakelev*" description and the Midrashic description of
Yishmael (our last major adversary before *y'mei Mashiach*) as a *kelev*
(based on "*v'yad kol bo*")....
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On 12/12/2015 7:00 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> I saw several things over shabbat that seem to go against known history
>
> 1) *Question:* Who was the Kohen Gadol at the time of 
> Chanukah--Mattisyahu--or his father Yochanan
> *Answer:*The Sefer /Shalal Rav/ (p. 147-148) presents a Machlokes 
> Rishonim on this very point.
>
> Obviously neither were kohen gadol at the time of chanukah. Josephus 
> describes the various successions of the kohen gadol  eg alcimus etc. 
> In fact Mattisyahu lived in Modiin and not in Jerusalem. It is not 
> clear who Yochanan is but in any case lived before the story of 
> Chanukah. Some claim that he is the Yochanan who lived 80 years and 
> became a sadducee which would make the story even more amazing, In 
> fact it is not clear that the Maccabees came from the "right" branch 
> of priests to be kohen gadol

Chazal didn't have any problem condemning him for taking both the kehuna 
and the melucha.  I doubt they would have been silent had they not come 
from the right branch of priests to be kohen gadol.

>
> 2)  From the daf yomi at the beginning of Gittin there arises the 
> question of the boundaries of Israel.  Tahbetz (3:4) claims that Ezra 
> conquered (nichbash) the Golan  while it is not clear if the portion 
> of Jordan was conquered by Ezra,
>
> However it is clear that Ezra (or Nechemia) had no army to conquer 
> anyone. They had enough trouble with their immediate neighbors and 
> succeeded only because of Nechemia's connection to the Persian kings. 
> Persia would obviously not allow the Jews to conquer a far away land. 
> It is fairly clear that at the time of Ezra/Nechemia the Jews lived in 
> the immediate vicinity of Jerusalem.

Nichbash needn't mean conquered militarily.  Taken over with permission 
of the Persian emperor would suffice.

Lisa

 
From: Micha Berger via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

....In case someone missed it, discussed  on Torah  Musings
http://www.torahmusings.com/2015/12/hezekiahs-seal


The image of the winged sun is clear in Hezekiah's seal. ....
     
     ....In going through the above mentioned  thread, I saw a reference
to an absolutely fascinating  source. It is in Midrash Ruth Rabbah
5:4. There, R. Abun  presents a list of celestial entities that have
wings,  with prooftexts. The relevant section reads, We have heard
that the sun has wings,as it says (Mal. 3:20): But unto you  that
fear My name shall the sun of righteousness arise  with healing
in its wings. Even the verse from Malachi is  remarkable in and
of itself, within the context of the  seal [--Josh Berman]
 
      [Look up the pasuq at
<http://j.mp/1lAKUQV>, I can't cut-n-paste the Hebrew.  -micha]


Micha  Berger              
mi...@aishdas.org         





>>>>
 
For one sense -- perhaps THE sense --  in which the sun has  "wings," see 
these amazing NASA photographs of the sun's corona during an  eclipse:
 
 
 
http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2008/images/gal_001.jpg
 

 
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0907/corona_vangorp_big.jpg


 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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From: Eli Turkel via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

I  saw several things over shabbat that seem to go against known  history

1)   *Question:*   Who was the Kohen Gadol at  the time of
Chanukah--Mattisyahu--or his father Yochanan
*Answer:*   The Sefer *Shalal Rav* (p. 147-148) presents a Machlokes
Rishonim on this  very point.

Obviously neither were kohen gadol at the time of chanukah.  Josephus
describes the various successions of the kohen gadol  eg  alcimus etc. In
fact Mattisyahu lived in Modiin and not in Jerusalem. 
 
 
Eli Turkel

 
 
>>>>>
 
1.  Could it be that Yochanan "kohen gadol" doesn't mean "High Priest"  but 
rather "a great priest"?
 
2. Could it be that Josephus' list of Kohanim Gedolim is incomplete  and 
inaccurate?  Highly likely, I'd say.
 
3. Could it be that Matisyahu became Kohen Gadol -- or Acting Kohen Gadol  
-- only for a short while, just the time it took to purify the BHM'K and 
maybe  for a short time thereafter?  And if so, the fact that he  formerly 
lived in Modi'in is irrelevant, because when he purified the BHM'K  (and acted 
as Kohen Gadol) he was necessarily in Jerusalem.   
 
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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>>  From the daf yomi at the beginning of Gittin there arises the question of
>> the boundaries of Israel.  Tahbetz (3:4) claims that Ezra conquered
>> (nichbash) the Golan  while it is not clear if the portion of Jordan was
>> conquered by Ezra,

>> However it is clear that Ezra (or Nechemia) had no army to conquer anyone.
...

> Nichbash needn't mean conquered militarily.  Taken over with permission of
> the Persian emperor would suffice.

Given all the enemies that Ezra and Nechemia had as described in Tanach it
would seem odd that king would give permission to take over the Golan many
days travel away.

-- 
Eli Turkel

<<Chazal didn't have any problem condemning him for taking both the kehuna
and the melucha.  I doubt they would have been silent had they not come
from the right branch of priests to be kohen gadol. >>

Mattaisyahu was from the mishmar Yehoyariv. . According to the gemara in
Taanit this mishmar did not return with Ezra and so was punished as to not
serve in the Bet haMikdash

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 12/14/2015 8:44 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> Given all the enemies that Ezra and Nechemia had as described in 
> Tanach it would seem odd that king would give permission to take over 
> the Golan many days travel away.

Well, if it seems odd...

Lisa

Lisa is of course quite right, A guy who smokes at home during Shabbat is
afraid of what people will say, but not of Hashem's judgement, while a guy
who walks down the street on Shabbat smoking a cigar just doesn't really
care.

So here we have the convergence of our relationship with HKBH and our
relationship with the Kehilla
It is reasonable to consider that wanting to comply and even feeling
coerced to comply with Kehilla standards is acceptance of Ol Malchus
Shamayim

whilst the guy who does not care is clearly rebelling - which implies he
recognises HKBH and is defiant, or could not care because he really does
not believe
either way that would be a MShB

but our co-relgionists who pledge loyalty of sorts - do not fit into either
of these categories - so I think we can say they are not to be classified
as Halachic MShB

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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On 12/14/2015 6:34 AM, via Avodah wrote:
> 1.  Could it be that Yochanan "kohen gadol" doesn't mean "High Priest" 
> but rather "a great priest"?
> 2. Could it be that Josephus' list of Kohanim Gedolim is incomplete 
> and inaccurate?  Highly likely, I'd say.
> 3. Could it be that Matisyahu became Kohen Gadol -- or Acting Kohen 
> Gadol -- only for a short while, just the time it took to purify the 
> BHM'K and maybe for a short time thereafter?  And if so, the fact that 
> he formerly lived in Modi'in is irrelevant, because when he purified 
> the BHM'K (and acted as Kohen Gadol) he was necessarily in Jerusalem.
>

Mattitiyahu didn't purify the Mikdash.  He was dead before we were able 
to take it back.  It was Yehudah who did that.  Also, "Mattitiyahu ben 
Yochanan Kohen Gadol" doesn't mean "Mattitiyahu ben Yochanan, Kohen 
Gadol".  It means "Mattitiyahu -- ben Yochanan Kohen Gadol".

The name Onias, by which several of the High Priests of the time were 
known, is the Greek transliteration of Chonyo, which is a short form of 
Yochanan.  Like Rick and Richard.  Jason, the Hellenist High Priest, was 
the successor to his brother Onias III, who is probably the Yochanan 
Kohen Gadol who was the father of Mattitiyahu.

Lisa

Here's where I am currently...

: By treating Gyim as we treat Yidden we are also denying the special
: relationship that HKBH has created which binds Yidden together.

I was raised with too many Hirschian notions to understand the subject
line. To RSRH, "Mamlekhes Kohanim" means to elevate society's moral
calling; changing the world in this way is the whole point of the
Jewish People.

As RMR noted off-list, that doesn't make what he wrote /wrong/, it's
just an observation.

BUT...

The Ran (AZ Rif 1a, on 6a) holds that we are required lehafrisham
min ha'aveirah. The Tashbeitz (shu"t 3:133) uses the same phrasing to
justify his pesaq that mikol maqom assur lesaymam -- i.e. mesayeia'
is not limited to Jews.

The Mordekhai holds it is mutar.

The Rama (YD 151:1) discusses selling an oveid AZ something he needs
for his avodah, but could buy elsewhere. He holds lehalakhah "nahagu
lehaqil" like the Mordekhai (citing the Moredekha), but (citing the Ran,
the Tosafos, and others, who prohibit baal nefesh yachmir al atzmo.

The Pischei Teshuvah quotes Emunas Shemu'el that he doesn't find this
heter clear, as the gemara's case is where he owns a usable animal
already, not where is another available for purchase, and therfore wants
to limit the Mordekha's heter to that one case.

(I noticed that the Rama blames common practice for our holding like the
Mordechai, as well as the ES's reluctance, as though neither like the
sevara. But you can buy that speculation or not, the following conclusion
is based on the ba'al nefesh yachmir.)

It would seem therefore that hashkafically, we are supposed to be helping
non-Jews avoid sinning "lehafrisham min ha'aveirah", even if this value
doesn't rise to the point of turning mesayeia' into a chiyuv.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
mi...@aishdas.org        but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org   sparks of fire emerge. 
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz

See http://www.torahmusings.com/2015/12/41114/

  R. Dr Ari Zivotofsky

What does turkey have to do with women rabbis? It is a question that 
would have never occurred to me until last week when my almost 20 
year old, popular <http://www.kashrut.com/articles/turkey/>article 
about the kashrut of turkey was invoked in the name of women rabbis. 
I was honored to be cited, but bemused at the application. It seems 
that women rabbis is THE topic. Are women rabbis good for the Jews or 
bad? Are women rabbis a fait accompli or will their opponents yet 
prevail? The discussion goes round and round and is discussed in 
every possible context. So, come Thanksgiving, there was 
<http://attemptsatjewishthought.com
/home/if-you-eat-kosher-turkey-you-probably-support-female-orthodox-clergy<
/a>>an 
article by <https://bethsholom.org/content/our-rabbi>Ben Greenfield, 
a rabbinic student at Yeshivat Chovevei Torah, attempting to connect 
women and turkeys. I do not consider myself an expert on the topic of 
ordination and do not intend to address the broader issue of women 
rabbis, but I do know something about bird mesorah and feel obligated 
to point out that what was written in this widely circulated article 
does not actually contribute to a better understanding of whether 
women should be ordained or whether turkey is kosher.

See the above URL for more. YL

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On 12/14/2015 8:51 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> Mattaisyahu was from the mishmar Yehoyariv. . According to the gemara 
> in Taanit this mishmar did not return with Ezra and so was punished as 
> to not serve in the Bet haMikdash

Mattitiyahu was the son of the Kohen Gadol.  He could have been the 
Kohen Gadol himself.


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