Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 99

Wed, 15 Jul 2015

• 1. Star-K on the Heter Mechira (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: De-Chokifying Arayos (including MZ) (Micha Berger)
• 3. Herzl (Micha Berger)
• 4. Secular Studies: Are They for Everyone? (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Confronting sexual abuse in the Jewish community (Eli Turkel)
• 6. The Halakhic Status of an Epicurian (Kaganoff)
• 7. Re: De-Chokifying Arayos (including MZ) (Meir Shinnar)
• 8. Re: De-Chokifying Arayos (including MZ) (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: The Halakhic Status of an Epicurian (Lisa Liel)

 From http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-shmitta-5775.htm

Who Owns The Land?  There is a difference of opinion among the poskim 
as to whether produce grown on land owned by a non-Jew living in the 
Land of Israel is considered produce of sheviis.  The custom in 
Yerushalayim is not to consider it produce of sheviis, while the 
custom in Bnei Brak is to consider it produce of sheviis.

Selling The Land:  The Heter Mechira was formulated and instituted by 
many very prominent rabbanim (including the Gadol Hador, Harav 
Yitzchok Elchanan Spector) in the year 1887.  There was a great deal 
of controversy among other prominent rabbanim surrounding the heter, 
the foremost of whom was the Netziv (Harav Naftoli Zvi Yehuda Berlin) 
of Volozin.  Most of the controversy centered around the problem 
regarding the Torah prohibition of selling any part of the Land of 
Israel to non-Jews.  Those who proposed the heter claimed that the 
situation in the Land of Israel was so precarious that not working 
the land for an entire year would put the entire Jewish settlement in 
danger, thus warranting this drastic measure.  Others claimed that 
the prohibition of selling the land was worse than the prohibition of 
working the land.  Since then, every Shmitta there have been rabbanim 
who have sold the land.  Harav Avraham Yitzchok Kook 
institutionalized the sale (although he, too, agreed it was to be 
done only under grave duress).  Since it's inception, the Chief 
Rabbinate of Israel has sold the land every Shmitta.  However, there 
are presently many rabbanim who question whether the current 
situation in Israel warrants this type of sale.  Furthermore, there 
is another more serious problem the consumer faces.  The produce that 
is sold in the regular stores during the year of Shmitta 
predominantly comes from non-religious kibbutzim and moshavim, who 
would never agree to sell their land.  This is compounded by the fact 
that the non-religious kibbutzim do not observe those prohibitions 
which Harav Kook instituted, and Harav Kook never permitted their 
current practices.  Certainly, a tourist who is not knowledgeable 
concerning the dinim of Shmitta should buy produce only from stores 
that do not rely upon the heter mechira.

YL

llev...@stevens.edu 
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On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 02:39:36PM -0400, Meir Shinnar via Avodah wrote:
: One could argue whether the arayot the rambam means refers to all dine
: arayot, or only to a subset (excluding mishkav zachar), although not sure
: on what basis - but clearly the rambam here insists that arayot are NOT
: self evident or even mefursamot

Lo zakhisi lehavin:
It's hard to see how incest within the immediate family or eishes iss
aren't mefursamot.

Whether MZ is well known or not aside, even "kemaaseh Eretz Mitzrayim"
(at least the male half of it) is described in the gemara as pretty well
known -- it's on Ulla's list of 3 dinim of the 30 mitzvos Benei Noach
(which rishonim map to subcategories of the usual 7) that Benei Noach
generally observe -- "she'in kosevin kesuvah lezekharim".




In any case, I will leave the Rambam as a tzarikh iyun that only affects
the lives of those who agree with him that understanding theology and/or
metaphysics is the perfection we strive for in life, above perfection
of virtue. (Moreh, conclusion, worthy of its own thread.)

For that matter, most of us also diagree with the Rambam on whether a
person is judged by the level reached or by the distance covered.

Without agreeing on either of those two points, it's likely one wouldn't
agree with the Rambam's pesaq here. His view of the role of of bringing
one's desire in line with a mitzvah will necessarily come from a
different place.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 06:25:33PM -0400, RnTK wrote on Areivim:
: My comment was facetious -- a little dig at those MO who apparently do  
: believe that Herzl, Golda Meir and Ben Gurion were gedolim.

R' AE Kaplan wrote very highly of Theodore Herzl. RAEK predeceased the
accompilshments of the other two.

To quote RYGB's translation (from BeIqvos haYir'ah pg 85):

    He [Herzl] did not teach us Torah... because he was never taught
    Torah... He taught us, rather, to say two words [four words in
    English] on occasions that until he came we had neither dared nor been
    able to utter: "I am a Jew [Ivri]!" We were always able to recite
    these words in the Beis Medrash next to our shtenders, we were even
    capable of reading and writing them... We could declare ourselves a
    nation in any place we wanted, except in that one place where the
    nations of the world were... to be found - in the international
    political arena. There we were seen as wandering sheep, like one
    Telzer (Yehuda Leib Gordon [22]) once put it: "Not a nation, not a
    congregation, rather a flock." Not like sheep that are petted and
    fed, but like those that are shorn or slaughtered. When a European
    ruler asked a Jew: "Who are you?" Would he respond simply: "I am a
    Jew" - without any qualifications or explanations? He would answer:
    I am a Jew - but also German, also French, also English, etc. Along
    came Herzl, the first from among us to reach that international
    political arena that serves as a world court, and responded, openly,
    freely, effortlessly and guilelessly: "I am a Jew." Moreover: "I was
    stolen from the land of the Jews [Eretz HaIvrim], and here I have
    done nothing, for they placed me in the pit" [Bereishis 40:15]. The
    Jewish nation is a nation unto itself, like all other nations, indeed,
    it is special, and it possesses a unique life force that sustains
    it... Do you not sense the hidden workings of divine providence? I
    know that just as the rejuvenation of Jewish national spirit had to
    come, so will finally come, in the unseen future, the rejuvenation
    of our Torah spirit... We do not see the paths, we do not see the
    footsteps, but I know... that I must strive toward this. And G-d who
    returns to Tziyon [Zion] will return us also to Torah MiTziyon... [23]

    [22] The most prominent Hebrew poet of the nineteenth century and a
    notorious Maskil, Gordon was generally known by his acronym, YaLaG,
    that, in a play on words, would be pronounced by Orthodox Jews as
    "yil'ag," the Hebrew word for "scoffer."

    [23] Besides his essays on Hashkafa, Reb Avraham Elya also left many
    "Reshimos," short notes on topics in Mussar, Machashava, and Avodas
    Hashem, some of which are beautiful vignettes of life lived in a
    Torah true and Mussar suffused way.





Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

 From the article by Rabbi Mordechai Willig at 
http://www.yutorah.org/_shiurim/%2FTU1_Willig.pdf

Are secular studies permissible for everyone when they are necessary to
provide for a livelihood? The answer is: for almost everyone.

<Snip>

To summarize, then, for purpose of parnasah, secular studies are
allowed for almost everyone. If it is not for parnasah, it is permissible, and
sometimes even a mitzvah to learn various disciplines, providing that such
study is considered of secondary importance, both in terms of time and
value for, above all, Torah must always be the Ekir.

Please see the above URL for the entire article.

YL

llev...@stevens.edu 
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<<Of course it is important to protect future victims, but that is not the
only consideration here. What about the fallout to the family of the
victim, to the family of the perpetrator, and to the community as a whole?>>



Can you give a place in shas or SA where the punishment of a crime accounts
for the pain to the family



If someone deserves the death penalty (there is no jail in halacha)  as far
as I know the bet din does not take into account that the family who are
innocent will also be punished.

If someone is sent to "ir miklat" the yeshiva goes with him, we don't
remove the punishment because it affects the whole community

-- 
Eli Turkel
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During a recent discussion with a friend the following two questions came
up and I am curious what the fellows of Avodah think.



1)      Can one count someone who denies the historicity of *matan torah*
and *yetzias mitzrayim* but is other completely *shomer torah u-mitzvos*
for a *minyan*?

 There is an halakhic category of *mumar l?hachis* who cannot count for a
*minyan* according to many *poskim*. But that is on the assumption that
they are violating *halakhah*. If they are not violating halakhah, can they
be counted in a *minyan*?



2)      Does one fulfill their shofer blowing from hearing the shofar be
blown by someone denies the historicity of *matan torah* and *yetzias
mitzrayim*?

We assume that *mitzvos tzerichos kavvanah*. So this individual intends to
fulfill the mitzvah of blowing the shofar on Rosh ha-Shanah. However, his
conception of the nature of *mitzvos* and commandedness is extremely
untraditional.

Personally, I am inclined to include this individual in a minyan and assume
that one fulfills the mitzvah of shofar with his blowing.

But my conception of halakha flows from R. Dr. Walter Wurzburger?s *zy?a*
belief that halakhah is a floor and not a ceiling. In other words, we do
not make the bar for basic fulfillment of halakhah obligations higher if
one could avoid it.

Yonatan
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On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 6:18 AM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Lo zakhisi lehavin:
> It's hard to see how incest within the immediate family or eishes iss
> aren't mefursamot.
>
> Whether MZ is well known or not aside, even "kemaaseh Eretz Mitzrayim"...

> In any case, I will leave the Rambam as a tzarikh iyun that only affects
> the lives of those who agree with him that understanding theology and/or
> metaphysics is the perfection we strive for in life, above perfection
> of virtue. (Moreh, conclusion, worthy of its own thread.)
...

You are assuming the shmona prakim see relevant only to those who fully
accept Rambam's philosophy -- and that is a very unique position. I
think shmona prakim is studied by those who would never open the moreh
Rambam argues that a lust to steal or murder is a character flaw -- the
should be overcome -- but a lust for hazir or arayot is not a character
flaw -- although it too should be overcome. Why that is dependent on his
notions of the ultimate good, effort versus achievement, or mitzvot bne
noach I don't see -- nor do I think most others me that connection....

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 03:32:08PM +0000, Meir Shinnar wrote:
: You are assuming the shmona prakim see relevant only to those who fully
: accept Rambam's philosophy -- and that is a very unique position...

Nah, I'm just surmising that the two may be linked. If your notion of
redemption revolves around ideas and the thirst for knowledge, then
developing something like like-vs-dislike is a different topic than if
your notion of personal redemption is "sheyehei adir cheftzeinu leheitiv
im zulaseinu... bedemus haBorei, keveyakhol." (Bonus points for the
first person to identify the reference. <grin>)

So not that 8 Peraqim are only relevent to followers of the Rambam's
point, just that this particular point, and perhaps a couple to a
few others, may be of limited utility to the rest of us.

(8 Peraqim, BTW, is one of my more heavily used resources when teaching
for The Mussar Institute.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 7/15/2015 10:33 AM, Kaganoff via Avodah wrote:
>     1)Can one count someone who denies the historicity of /matan
>     torah/ and /yetzias mitzrayim/ but is other completely /shomer
>     torah u-mitzvos/ for a /minyan/?

I think there's a difference between someone who denies Matan Torah and
someone who expresses doubts. The former, I'd treat no differently than
someone who denies God, because for the purposes of Judaism, they're
not separable.

We asked our mesader kiddushin (years ago) what we should do about those
family members who didn't believe in God. He said that if they'd openly
denied God's existence, we could not give them sheva brachot, because
we couldn't be yotzei on a bracha by someone who doesn't believe in God.
He didn't say anything at all about observance.

A lot of people focus on Rambam's ikkarim, and whether or not we're
bound by them, but the concept of being kofer ba-ikkar predates Rambam by
centuries. The existence of God and the historical fact of Matan Torah
are, by any reasonable assessment, the most basic ikkarim of Judaism.
Absent either of these, what's left isn't Judaism.

Lisa



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