Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 132

Tue, 23 Jul 2013

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: martin brody <martinlbr...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:09:55 -0700
[Avodah] Grape Juice

"In other words, regardless of how we would define "mevushal", it seems
from your post that "modern day cooked grape juice" is not permitted in
your home for kiddush and other rituals, because the cooking is done in a
manner which prevents the fermentation from even beginning. I am curious
from where you know that this is a halachic requirement."

Any mevushal wine is not permitted by me for sacremental purposes. We are
supposed to use best wine.That is the opinion of several decisors
Cooked wine is deliberately destroyed. Grape juice is NOT wine and cannot
become wine.
Yes, decisors do permit cooked wine but not as not ideal, and even grape
My original claim in this thread is that it is a huge leniency, taken by
people that are very strict on everything else.
That they do it, is none of my business. I was just pointing out factual
See, no Hebrew :-)

Martin Brody
310 474 1856
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:19:55 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Grape Juice

R Yehuda Spitz gave me permissin to share his paper with the chevrah.

It has all the mar'eh meqomos I asked for, including a discussion of the
need for the wine to actually boil away a bit, whether the recapturing
of the wine by sealing the pipes is an issue, etc...

Tizkeh lemitzvos!

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

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Message: 3
From: martin brody <martinlbr...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:00:21 -0700
[Avodah] Grape Juice

"R' Martin Brody wrote:

> ... by FDA law and Kedem's own admission it is cooked at the
> regulatary minimum which I think is 160 degrees.

I will begin by apologizing, and saying something that I should have
written earlier: The above is indeed interesting, and news to me. I had
thought that the grape juice labeled by Kedem as "non-mevushal" was totally
raw. Now I know that it is actually pasteurized, but at a temperature which
even Rav Moshe Feinstein considers insufficient to qualify as "mevushal".
Thank you.
Akiva Miller"

You are welcome. You are not the only one that assumed Kedem Non-Mevushal
was raw.
Indeed. When they first brought out the product, I called Kedem and the
staff that I spoke to assumed that too!

Martin Brody
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Message: 4
From: "Kenneth Miller" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 21:58:45 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Grape Juice

Regarding Kedem grape juice, R' Zev Sero wrote:

> I don't think they produce any juice that RMF would not
> consider mevushal; AFAIK the "non-mevushal" is by the
> standards of their primary hechsher, the Tzeilemer Rov.

It's a short article, so I'll quote it in its entirety. The original is on
the OU website at http://tinyurl.com/lnodcvk

> Kedem Mevushal / Not Mevushal Update
> The Daf HaKashrus discussed at length the designations of
> Mevushal and Not Mevushal Kedem wines in its Volume c - 
> No. 3 issue. The following is the current status of these
> wines:
> 1. The Grape Juice bottles that state on their labels
> Mevushal are accepted by all as Mevushal.
> 2. The Grape Juice bottles that state on their labels Not
> Mevushal are accepted by all as Not Mevushal.
> 3. The Grape Juice bottles that do not state on their
> labels Mevushal or Not Mevushal:
> A) according to the Tzelihmer Rav Zt"l are not Mevushal.
> B) according to Rav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l and the are Mevushal.

I draw several conclusions from this article. First, the grape juice that
R' Zev is referring to has no notice at all on the label regarding the
mevushal status. Second, they also produce grape juice which is not
mevushal even according to RMF, and those labels are marked as Not
Mevushal. (I do not know where to obtain those, but I do recall seeing one,
once upon a time.)

Akiva Miller
Want to place your ad here?
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Message: 5
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 14:30:06 -0500
Re: [Avodah] the 7 nations

On 7/21/2013 12:37 AM, Jay F Shachter wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:38:18AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>>> Well, there's a midrash that explains why the Girgashi are missing
>>> from so many of those. They got Yehoshua's letters and fled to
>>> Africa.  I don't know about the rest.
>> Rashi Shemos 32:2, 34:11.
>> How does that line up with the date Carthage (Kart Chadasht --
>> Newburg?) was founded by the Phoenicians? ...
>> -Micha
> The question is not when Carthage was built.  If the Phoenicians did
> colonize North Africa in response to our arrival in Canaan, Carthage
> in any event would not have been the first colony that they built.
> Utica would have to be older than Carthage, for simple etymological
> reasons.

What RJS is implying, without explaining, is that Utica is considered to 
be cognate to the Hebrew Atiq, meaning ancient.


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Message: 6
From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 16:31:39 GMT
Re: [Avodah] self cleaning ovens

I spoke to Rabbi Yosef Wikler, publisher of Kashrus Magazine.  He re-stated
what we had discussed, that a self-cleaning oven is considered by all
modern poskim to be libun gamur whereas the older ovens, as hot as they
could get, around 500F, were not.  They are all therefore somech on them
for the oven itself and anything placed into it, such as the oven racks,
the stove grates, etc. And, of course, anything else that needs libun. To
repeat what I wrote previously, you won't find any "sources" for this since
the whole technology is not old enough to have made it into any halacha
sefarim such as Chochmas Adam that are usually accepted , and anyone who
publishes this in a modern kashrus book is simply restating what I wrote
above.	Ve'su lo midi. Gershon
New BlackBerry&#174 Z10
Discover the BlackBerry Z10, built to keep you moving. Get it today.
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Message: 7
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 23:43:12 +0300
[Avodah] self cleaning oven

<<"4. Most Poskim hold that a self cleaning oven may be kashered by running
it through the self cleaning cycle. According to the view of many Poskim
(see 2) who hold that libun gamur is required for gas and electric ovens,
the door must be covered with aluminum foil and the like for Pesach.
According to the view of the other Poskim (see 3) who hold that libun kal
is sufficient, the amount of heat which reaches the door during the self
cleaning process is sufficient."

It is clear to me from the above that a pot would require libun gamur, and
being inside a self-cleaning oven would NOT be sufficient.>>

I fail to see the comparison. The problem with the door is that it faces
the outside which is cool. Therefore the heat that reaches the door might
not be enough for libun gamur (has anyone actually measured this?)
However, the pot would be sitting in the middle of the oven. If one holds
that an oven needs libun gamur and self-cleaning still works (except for
the door) why would a pot in the middle be any different?

Is there anyone who says that the heat inside a self-cleaning oven does not
reach libun gamur?
I find it hard to imagine that chazal had means to reacher higher

Eli Turkel
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Message: 8
From: Joe Slater <avod...@slatermold.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 09:39:06 +1000
Re: [Avodah] self cleaning oven

Self cleaning ovens work at a temperature of around 500 centigrade (about
900 degrees Fahrenheit). This is above the melting point of many aluminium
alloys, although I don't know about the ones used in cooking. None the
less, people should be very careful about putting any utensil in a
self-cleaning oven unless they're sure they know what it's made from. Even
steel pots often have a "sandwiched" base containing another metal for heat
dispersion, and I have a feeling that the weld may break down at high

Joe Slater
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Message: 9
From: Samuel Svarc <ssv...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 01:04:29 -0400
Re: [Avodah] boiling water

Yes, I have heard this, from real TC'im. I understood the issue slightly
different, that lukewarm water (on the way up to boil) should not be drunk,
but lukewarm water on the way down can be drunk. So, water above lukewarm
is fine even if it hasn't boiled.

So I remember from roughly thirteen years ago when I questioned a R'am in
Yeshiva, regarding his drinking water that was a mixture of hot (from a
samovar) and cold (from the sink) water (thus lukewarm) during Shalosh

My daughter learned in seminary that you're not allowed to (or should not)
drink water that has been heated but not to the point of boiling.  If it
was boiled and then cooled off that's OK but you can't pour yourself a cup
of coffee from the kettle before the water boils.  I told her I had never
heard of this and would ask my learned friends on Avodah.  Anybody?

*--Toby Katz


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Message: 10
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 05:00:31 +0300
[Avodah] RYGB on Rav Elyashiv


An article by Rav Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer  on Rav Elyashiv. The article 
avoids the normal  items about how the rav learned X number of hours per 
day. Instead it describes Rav Elyashiv's derech in psak in a few 
different areas. I found the psak about honoring one's parents 
particularly interesting because it touched on the question of daas 
torah, but in a different way from what is normally discussed here 
(rabbis ruling on social/cultural issues from which they are 
disconnected). Actually all of the items were very interesting and 
worthy of discussion.


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Message: 11
From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <r...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 16:12:52 GMT
[Avodah] Ben p'kuah (was: Abortion is not murder)

     RMeir Rabi wrote, "BP is not disqualified by Treifos nor is its Cheilev nor its Gid Assur."

     This is far from universally held.  Rambam (Ma'achalos Asuros 7:3) paskens that eating the cheilev of a ben p'kua is punishable by kareis.


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Message: 12
From: cantorwolb...@cox.net
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 10:50:11 -0400

 One of yesterday's postings contained a cogent comment in regard
 to saying something nice instead of this constant one-upmanship.
 I'm sorry to say we have colleagues (very few) who must always be right.
 One should be able to disagree without being disagreeable and we 
 are supposedly rachmonim b'nai rachmonim. 
 I came across the following posuk in Vayikra 7:10 and was fascinated
 by Rashi's commentary:
 "v'chol mincha b'lula vashemen vachareiva l'chol b'nai Aharon tih'yeh ish k'achiv"

 Rashi:  "b'lula vashemen"  zo minchat n'dava 
            "vachareiva"          zo minchat chotei uminchat k'naot she'ein bahen shamen.

 The free will offering of the "pious" Jew as well as the sin offering of the "sinner" must
 be received by the Kohen with equal compassion and consideration. Judaism commands
 the kohen to accept saint and sinner. 

            "k'achiv" (Not Rashi) As for the ideological gulfs between Jews and Jews, we
 must respond with bridges of Jewish brotherhood, love and mutual respect -- as well as
 faith in the intrinsic good of our fellow Jews.

 One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness; usually it comes back to you.
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Message: 13
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:25:13 +0300
[Avodah] Rav Lau on Pesach Chizkiyahu

In Rav Lau's new book on Yishiyahu, Rav Lau discusses Pesach Chizkiyahu 
(where Chizkiyahu invited those Jews from the Northern tribes who had 
survived the war to Jerusalem for Pesach, while adding an extra month to 
enable them to go through tahara).

Rav Lau describes Chizkiyahu's actions as one designed to bring achdut 
ha'am, a step in the messianic process (a national, political revolution 
centered around Pesach) and to do this he was willing to push off the chag.

Rav Lau then cites the tradition that the chachamim at the time didn't 
agree with the decision (and theorizes as to why they objected), but Rav 
Lau defends it, stating that Chizkiyahu knew that he had a rare window 
of opportunity, one that can't be missed. He understood that he was 
taking a drastic, but required step. The tzadaqim who advised him didn't 
understand the situation and stuck with the known and secure halacha.


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Message: 14
From: "Poppers, Michael" <Michael.Popp...@kayescholer.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 18:50:34 -0400
Re: [Avodah] kinos

In Avodah V31n130, R'Micha wrote:
> I must confess it's hard for me to relate to qorbanos, but I can relate
> to the fact that I'm supposed to be missing them, and I can mourn the
> fact that I don't. And so, I ask the RBSO not only for a restoration of
> the qorban mussaf question and qorbanos in general, but that by doing
> so I could see what I'm missing in my relationship to Him.

I feel like I'm missing gilui Shchinah, and I think many of our Amidah
baqashos are targeted towards it; all of the aspects of a functioning
Miqdash, including qorbanos, are subsumed in that fundamental state.
(Naturally, I don't know if I could handle gilui Shchinah better than
pre-Churban Jews did -- as the movie line goes, "The truth? You can't
handle the truth!" [IINM, Malkovich to Eastwood in "In the Line of
Fire," but maybe it was Nicholson talking about a "code red"?] -- but I
would prefer the challenge to the current state of affairs.)] As such,
I relate to qorbanos (and Bircas "R'tzei") as a way in which I can see
gilui Shchinah in operation (granted, not their primary purpose).

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

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Message: 15
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 18:55:37 -0400
[Avodah] The Malbim on "11 days", and the chapters in chumash

Sefer Devarim starts with a cryptic reference to "achad asar yom".  Rashi
understands this to refer to the time a trip from Chorev to Kadesh Barnea
would normally take, and says Moshe rebuked the people for their lack of
gratitude to Hashem for taking them on that route in only 3 days.

The Malbim has a different approach, and takes this pasuk as a description
of the long speech that Moshe is about to deliver.  He uses it to resolve
the apparent contradiction between the fact that Devarim appears to be Moshe's
own words, and our belief that the whole Torah is Hashem's work.   He says
that over the course of the 38-year journey from Chorev to Kadesh Barnea,
by way of Har Seir, there were 11 days on which Moshe spoke to the Jews,
giving them mussar.  Toward the end of his life, Hashem took those 11
sermons and edited them into one long sermon, which takes up the first
11 chapters of Sefer Devarim, and told him to deliver it to the Jews as
his valedictory.  In other words, the words are all Moshe's, but Hashem
chose them and put them in order; Moshe is the author, but Hashem is the
editor, and that makes it Hashem's work, because it says what He wants it
to say.

This sounds interesting, but from the way the Malbim puts it it seems to
me that he finds it significant that the speech takes up 11 chapters;
I wonder whether he knew that the chapters in Chumash are not of Jewish
origin.   And since we know this, is it a mere coincidence that the
bishop who divided the chumash did assign 11 chapters to this speech?

This is not an earth-shattering question, and even if we dismiss the whole
chapter system the essence of the explanation will remain unscathed, but
it's an interesting point to ponder.

Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

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Message: 16
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 06:12:27 -0400
[Avodah] Mesorah & Consensus in Pesak Halachah - RHS

I don't recall if anyone posted this ere before, but last May 12, R
Herschel Schachter spoke on two Avodah perennials in a shiur titled
"How Do We Decide? The Role of Mesorah and Consensus in Psak Halacha"

Much of his perspective is woven from Rabbis Soloveitchik from three

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             You are where your thoughts are.
mi...@aishdas.org                - Ramban, Igeres haQodesh, Ch. 5
Fax: (270) 514-1507

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Message: 17
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 11:27:52 -0400
[Avodah] Chinese on Shabbos

Opening up a vacuum-sealed pouch of tea imported from China, the following
question came up:

How many Chinese ideograms would it take for the shiur of mechiqah on
Shabbos? I assume the shiur would have to derive from that for kesivah,
but that wasn't the situation.

So, here were answers we played with:

One, because each one has at least as much info as two Hebrew letters?

Any one idiogram comprised of more than 2 standard stokes, treating
each stroke as an os? (However they did typewriters, they must have
standardized pieces of letters to pull it off.)

Two idiograms, because you can't mark to qerashim with one symbol? And
if so, what if someone erases an asterisk and a list bullet, were they
mechalel Shabbos? Those too are enough to mark boards.

An idiogram is a stylized picture representing the meaning of the word,
or a combination of such pictures each for part of the meaning of the
word. (eg China is written Central/Middle + State, which does NOT mean
they think their country is the center, but that the state from which
it gets the name Zhongguo was in the center of the unified empire.)

So, R' Taubes (head of MTA, YU HS for Boys), who I roped into this
discussion at a chasunah last night, thought that we would first have
to establish whether or not it was kesiva at all by our standards.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org   through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger


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