Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 96

Tue, 21 May 2013

• 1. Re: : Re: Electricity on Shabbas - R' Asher Weiss (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Reform Practice in Orthodox Shuls (Joel Schnur)
• 3. Re: More on Rabbi Riskin Permits Women to Read Ruth for Men (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: 50 (Arie Folger)
• 5. Gershom Mendes Seixas Preached in English (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: 50 (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: 50 (Liron Kopinsky)
• 8. Re: 50 (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Gershom Mendes Seixas Preached in English (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: Gershom Mendes Seixas Preached in English (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: 50 (Arie Folger)

> RJIR writes:
>> WADR as I posted there- I have heard R' Weiss mention this more than
>> once and he has always said that based on that Yerushalmi anything that
>> chazal >thought shouldn't be done on Shabbat and did not fit into one of the
>> other 39 mlachot, would be forbidden as maakeh bpatish.  Very subjective but
>> that's >the way halacha is sometimes (as in another favourite of r' Weiss -
>> masruha lchachamim [and libi omer li])

> Does that mean that R' Weiss is in fact understanding all this as a
> d'rabbanan?  It sounds like it from the way you describe it above: -
> something Chazal thought shouldn't be done on shabbas (eg business dealings)
> are generally understood to be banned d'rabbanan.

> Or are you saying that he is saying that if chazal thought something should
> be banned they called it a d'orisa when really it was their own idea?
> (Sounds potentially like apikorsis to me) or, perhaps more palatably, that
> they were merely using an asmachta b'alma for their ban?

> Or are you saying - as I have sometimes heard said (and this is where
> masruha l'chachamim may come in) that the Chachamim were given the power to
> define melachos of this nature?  I know some people say it vis a vis shiurim
> and the like - ie the Torah gave the power over to the chachamim to provide
> certain definitions, such as shiurim, which are d'rabbanan, but which
> operate in a Torah context, but it is a long way from that to defining the
> scope of a d'orisa itself.  If the Chachamim generally had such a power,
> then how do we ever have d'rabbanans regarding any shabbas melacha?  They
> are all really d'orisas (of course that can get into the whole discussion
> about how all d'rabbanans might also be d'orisos because of listening to the
> Chachamim etc but trying to avoid that, as it is not strictly relevant
> here), please define what you are saying.  Are you saying that according to
> RAW, if I use electricity to intentionally do a meaningful task (however
> that is defined) I am over on the issur d'orisa of makeh b'patish, or am I
> merely over on an issur d'rabbanan of makeh b'patish?

AIUI (I know R' Weiss covers this in a few written places but I am at
work and don't have his commentaries on shas at home either, I think
in Minchat Asher on Devarim somewhere in the 20's he covers the whole
masruha which is a lynchpin to his entire Torah weltanschauung - but
I have reviewed a number of his shiurim on audioroundup and he comes
back to this theme frequently - if someone knows the Feigenbaum family
in Teaneck I'm sure they could get R' Weiss to do a BCBM summary shiur)
masruha means in this case that besides any takanot, siyagim and mitzvot
drabbanan which have a drabbanan force, chazal were granted (perhaps
through lo Tasur but imho r' Weiss would likely say it's clear as day
or libi omer li ) the power to establish what would be included in the
torah prohibition of makeh bpatish. But it would be good to see it inside

I will see if I can find the Minchat Asher Devarim section


[Email #2. -micha]


>> R' Nissan Kaplan has a whole thing on why new refrigerators are a
>> problem because of the continuous information transfer in the solid state
>> thermostat that tells the refrigerator compressor what to do.  I suspect
>> the response that it is all on a scale not observable by the human eye was
>> rejected by him.

> Sounds like it, but I wonder how widely this is going to be accepted.
> People cannot survive without refrigerators today, and it will no doubt
> rapidly become the case that you cannot find a refrigerator without
> these mechanims (what? Frum Israelis are going to build refrigerators
> from scratch purely to satisfy the frum market?). And this is not
> something like a light that you can disable without affecting the rest
> of the workings of the refrigerator. I therefore suspect that the olam
> will end up relying on somebody (anybody) who is more makil in this regard
> (whether based on the scale not being observable to the human eye or other
> reasons to matir) - so purely for pragmatic reasons I can't see this as
> being a psak that will be generally accepted - as well as gezeros that
> the people cannot live with, there are also halachic positions that the
> people cannot live with, and I suspect this may be one of them.

> Regards
> Chana

Agree - that's what I said when I posted the audioroundup review although
he mentioned a company in Israel was manufacturing some circuit that you
could add to your refrigerator that was rabbinically approved to avoid
the issues. IMHO the whole electronics world will get some halachic
makeover over the next few decades if current trends continue.

KT
Joel Rich

Akiva Miller writes "I truly doubt whether *any* kehila's people will accept
the idea of being limited to saying kaddish several times a week."

 

In our Flatbush neitz minyan at the Young Israel of Avenue K, which is
conducted according to Minhag haGra, only one kadish yasom is said and that
is after the shir shel yom.

 

___________________________

Joel Schnur

Senior VP

Government Affairs/Public Relations

Schnur Associates, Inc.

1350 Avenue of the Americas

Suite 1200

New York, NY 10019

 

Tel. 212-489-0600 x204

Fax. 212-489-0203 

j...@schnurassociates.com 

www.schnurassociates.com
<http://www.schnurassociates.com/>  

 

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On 5/21/2013 10:02 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 03:41:46PM +0300, Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer wrote:
> : R. Riskin ignores Tosaphot Sukah 38a explaining the Behag, Semag Esin
> : Derabbanan 4, and Magen Avraham 689:5, who maintain that the problem of
> : women reading Megilat Esther for men is Kevod Hatzibbur -- which would
> : apply equally for Ruth as it would for Esther!
>
> It depends... If the problem with kevod hatzibur is that it looks
> like a bunch of mechuyavim couldn't do the mitzvah themselves and in
> their incompetence had to turn to an einah mechuyves to help them out,
> would that apply to a minhag? No one is actually obligated to read Rus
> altogether. And the versions of the minhag we do today post-date even
> Mes' Soferim. Is it a kevod hatzibur problem to make it look like the
> men were to incompetent to do a minhag?

That may be a legitimate teirutz. It doesn't change the fact that R' 
Riskin didn't address it.

Lisa

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 04:31:30PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
> :>> A very clear outright statement that yovel drifts -- sometimes it's on
> :>> year 1 of the cycle, other times in the middle of the cycle, etc...
> :
> :>    However, according to the one who says Yovel is included in the
> :>    shmittah cycle, sometimes [the eved ivri goes free] in the middle of
> :>    a shmittah cycle.
>

Then, to respond to R'nLL citing Qorban ha'Edah, RMB wrote:


> If you insist that the QhE is speaking specifically of yovel being in the
> year 1, even so he means "sometimes yovel is in the middle", as years 2
> to 6 are only 5 years of servitude, not 6. But I don't see indication
> the QhE is saying it's specifically year 1, rather than the part you
> quote saying "e.g. year 1". He spends all that time on this case,
> but also (beginning of the 2nd long line of that d"h in the Vilna ed
> at <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&;st=&pgnum=391>)
> "debeshe'ar shenei shavua' airi qera" -- any of the other 6, not just
> the first.
>

Having looked at the sources cited, I must say that I find the Yerushalmi
is more convincingly read like RMB suggests, however, regarding what the
Qorban ha'Edah says, I believe that R'n LL is right, namely, that he reads
the Yerushalmi as agreeing with our Bavli influenced preconceived notions
about how Yovel is always right after Shemitta. In fact, QhE reads the ba
be'emtza hashevua' as relating not to Yovel (which would seem the object of
the lines in the gemara), but rather as modifying the 'eved, who will, if
he cannot be sold during yovel, end up working only five years, rather than
six.

Mixed bag of opinions ...

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Schnellkurs im j?dischen Grundwissen: I. Der Schabbat (Audio)
* Warum beschneiden Juden ihre Knaben ? Multimedia-Vortrag
* Beschneidung, die aktuelle Rechtslage ? Multimedia Schiur
* Was mir in Holocaust Museen fehlt
* Beschneidungslerntag ? Schlu?worte (Multimedia)
* Paneldiskussion zur Beschneidung ? Audio-Datei
* Welche B?nde gibt es zwischen Mensch und G?tt? (Multimedia)
* R?ckblick Gedenkfeier F?rstenfeldbruck
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 From http://www.acjna.org/acjna/articles_detail.aspx?id=442

Seixas' words powerfully reflect the consciousness that the 
experience of the tiny Jewish community of the newly established 
United States, indeed represented an unprecedented and revolutionary 
new chapter in the long history of Judaism. At that time, Jews in 
every other country on the face of the earth still remained isolated, 
oppressed and disenfranchised, with none of the most basic civil 
rights of citizenship. In most places they still suffered violent 
persecution, and were marginalized in even the most advanced 
societies. And yet on the shores of America, they had been part of 
the founding and building of the new nation from its very beginning. 
They fought as equals in the struggle for Independence, providing 
support and leadership during the Revolution far out of proportion to 
their numbers. They were the first Jewish community since Biblical 
times to be able to express the sense of integration and 
participation in their broader society, and their loyalty to their 
government, that Seixas so eloquently proclaimed. His sermon had such 
an impact on the congregation that it was published in pamphlet form 
shortly afterward, hailed in the New York Daily Gazette as " the 
first of its kind ever preached in English in this State, and highly 
deserving the attention of every pious reader, whether Jew or 
Christian, as it breathes nothing but pure morality and devotion."

One can download his English Thanksgiving sermon at

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23072657/A-Religiou
s-Discourse-Thanksgiving-Day-Sermon-November-26-1789

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 03:48:50PM +0000, Arie Folger wrote:
: >           [The Qorban haEidah] spends all that time on this case,
: > but also (beginning of the 2nd long line of that d"h in the Vilna ed
: > at <http:/
: > /www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&;st=&pgnum=3
: > 91>)
: > "debeshe'ar shenei shavua' airi qera" -- any of the other 6, not just
: > the first.

: Having looked at the sources cited, I must say that I find the Yerushalmi
: is more convincingly read like RMB suggests, however...
:                                                 In fact, QhE reads the ba
: be'emtza hashevua' as relating not to Yovel (which would seem the object of
: the lines in the gemara), but rather as modifying the 'eved, who will, if
: he cannot be sold during yovel, end up working only five years, rather than
: six.

How do you explain the line I quoted? I was thinking it could have
meant that the pasuq "sheish shanim ya'avod" means the other years of
the shemittah cycle. However, to my eye, "de'im lo kein pe'amim shehu
ba ba'emtza" both (1) reiterates the word in the gemara "pe'amim" --
at times it's not be'emtza, and (2) fits his saying that "she'ar shenei
shavua'" is in contract to it falling out on that year.

I find your suggested read of the QhE too far from the Y-mi. I therefore
suggested he was giving the easier example -- even if yovel is year one,
"sheish shanim" would end up being 5 years -- and then saying "and so
too for any other middle year".

The QhE isn't usually one to do this, but a number of the standard
acharonim in the Vilna ed do have a habit of finding interpretations
or girsaot that minimize machloqesin between the two shasin. The Or
Sameiach, if anything, tends to assume there is a machloqes, and then
comes up with beautiful lomdus showing how it's leshitasam.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
mi...@aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> We shouldn't read too much into this Rashi, since this is discussing a hava
> amina that we might have entertained, had the Torah not explicitly said
> that
> he goes free at the yovel even if he hasn't served his six years.  Hava
> aminas
> like this are often not fully thought out.  In the hypothetical universe in
> which the Torah didn't say that such a person goes free at the yovel, we
> might indeed have said let him serve the full six, and let the buyer pay
> the
> full price.  In the real world, if he's sold within six years of the yovel
> he
> serves less than six, so the buyer obviously pays less, because why would
> anyone pay the full price for less than the full value?  It's not as if BD
> can force anyone to buy the eved for more than he's willing to pay!
>
> Actually it seems to me that Rashi should have said "the victim" instead of
> "the master", and this would make more sense.  Because it's really the
> victim
> who loses by the yovel coming within the six years; he's the one who must
> make
> do with a smaller payout.
>

I agree. This makes sense because now the victim gets less of the principle
back guaranteed.
The other person who would make sense would be the eved himself. The point
would be to make sure he at least had a certain amount of time under
someone else as a form of rehabilitation.

I assume Rashi says like he does because of the word "lei ???" but I don't
understand it.

Kol Tuv,
Liron

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 05:42:19PM +0000, Arie Folger wrote:
: On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
: > I find your suggested read of the QhE too far from the Y-mi. I therefore
: > suggested he was giving the easier example -- even if yovel is year one,
: > "sheish shanim" would end up being 5 years -- and then saying "and so
: > too for any other middle year".

: Where do you see him saying this? AFAIU it is your conjecture. Of course,
: it does fit better with the text of the Yerushalmi. Then again, are there
: variant readings? Worth checking.

I am not approving this post, because I feel this is unnecessarily going
in circles. I know that's taking advantage of my being moderator, but hey,
it has to have /some/ benefit.

I give a specific location where I saw it, in a quote of myself I made a
point of including in the post you replied to:
: >           [The Qorban haEidah] spends all that time on this case,
: > but also (beginning of the 2nd long line of that d"h in the Vilna ed
: > at <http:/
: > /www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&;st=&pgnum=3
: > 91>)
: > "debeshe'ar shenei shavua' airi qera" -- any of the other 6, not just
: > the first.

So, instead of "where do you see him...?" please resubmit explaining
why it's not where I /said/ I saw him "saying this".

And obviously I didn't see in the acharonim I looked at any chiluf
girsa'os. But that's a new topic you raise that should be included
in the final version of your post.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

At 01:14 PM 5/21/2013, you wrote:
>It could be that my information was incorrect, but it could also be that
>this was a departure from the usual practise.  Note that this was not on a
>Shabbos, but at a Thursday service that he invented from scratch.  Did he
>preach at Shearith Israel on Shabbosos?  And if so, in what language?  My
>information is that English was not introduced into SI until the mid-19th
>century, and that it was very controversial then.   Of course both could
>be true - perhaps Seixas introduced English and then it fell out of use
>after his day.  I'm speculating there, but so must anyone without enough
>data.

Have a look at the write up about Gershom Mendes Seixas in David de 
Sola Pool's Portraits Etched in Stone.  There he recounts the many 
addresses and sermons he gave in English at Congregation Shearith 
Israel and gives English selections from them.

The following is from page 363.

"It may be well to recall how frequently he preached,  since it is 
often claimed that the sermon was introduced into the American 
synagogue by the Reform movement in the nineteenth century.  Seixas 
was born in 1745 and died in 1816.  There was no Reform movement in 
America during this period. The first Reformers began in Charleston in 1825.

 From http://tinyurl.com/mrm3mkc

It was actually not until January 16, 1825,
that they formally organized "The Reformed Society of Israelites"
and prepared its constitution, which was unanimously adopted on
February 15, 1825 by forty-four people present.

In brief, they wrote a new and abbreviated ritual service with
some original prayers: original prayers and services for circumcision,
naming a daughter, confirmation and the marriage ceremony; used
instrumental music, worshipped without hats and revised the
Maimonidean creed. They planned to educate some youth to serve
as their spiritual leader.

Three of the Rambam's Thirteen Principles of Faith were eliminated in their
document - the Divine Revelation of the Scriptures; the expectation of the
coming Messiah, and the resurrection of the dead

YL

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On 21/05/2013 11:54 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> His sermon had such an impact on the congregation that it was
> published in pamphlet form shortly afterward, hailed in the New York
> Daily Gazette as " the first of its kind ever preached in English in
> this State, and highly deserving the attention of every pious reader,
> whether Jew or Christian, as it breathes nothing but pure morality and
> devotion."

It could be that my information was incorrect, but it could also be that
this was a departure from the usual practise.  Note that this was not on a
Shabbos, but at a Thursday service that he invented from scratch.  Did he
preach at Shearith Israel on Shabbosos?  And if so, in what language?  My
information is that English was not introduced into SI until the mid-19th
century, and that it was very controversial then.   Of course both could
be true - perhaps Seixas introduced English and then it fell out of use
after his day.  I'm speculating there, but so must anyone without enough
data.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> I find your suggested read of the QhE too far from the Y-mi. I therefore
> suggested he was giving the easier example -- even if yovel is year one,
> "sheish shanim" would end up being 5 years -- and then saying "and so
> too for any other middle year".
>

Where do you see him saying this? AFAIU it is your conjecture. Of course,
it does fit better with the text of the Yerushalmi. Then again, are there
variant readings? Worth checking.

Earlier you had written:

> : >           [The Qorban haEidah] spends all that time on this case,
> : > but also (beginning of the 2nd long line of that d"h in the Vilna ed
> : > at <h
> : > ttp://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&;st=&a
> : > mp;pgnum=391>)
> : > "debeshe'ar shenei shavua' airi qera" -- any of the other 6, not just
> : > the first.
>

I think he is pondering whether shesh shanim ya'avod always applies, in
which case, a Jew must be able to sell himself into slavery on yovel, too,
or whether shesh shanim applies only to other shemitot, but not the one
beginning with yovel.

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Schnellkurs im j?dischen Grundwissen: I. Der Schabbat (Audio)
* Warum beschneiden Juden ihre Knaben ? Multimedia-Vortrag
* Beschneidung, die aktuelle Rechtslage ? Multimedia Schiur
* Was mir in Holocaust Museen fehlt
* Beschneidungslerntag ? Schlu?worte (Multimedia)
* Paneldiskussion zur Beschneidung ? Audio-Datei
* Welche B?nde gibt es zwischen Mensch und G?tt? (Multimedia)
* R?ckblick Gedenkfeier F?rstenfeldbruck
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