Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 51

Mon, 25 Mar 2013

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 21:56:47 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] Why Does the Wise Son Say, ... That Gd Commanded You


The same problem emerges from the declaration made to the Cohen, by he who
brings Bikurim - I declare today, LaHaShem EloKeCha - to your Gd. He ought
to have said, to HaShem EloKeiNu, our Gd.

The Seforno explains this as being necessary since we previously mentioned
- El HaCohen Asher YihYeh BaYaMim HaHeim - the Cohen who will be alive at
that time. Chazal interpret this to mean, we must accept whoever the Cohen
is and not dismiss him as a poor imitation of the Cohanim of old who were
REAL Cohanim.

The Seforno now adds that not only must we accept him but we must treat him
with respect, as it says LaHaShem EloKeCha.

I think this means, by way of a parable -  my son who is learning in
Ponevez and with the same RY that I learned with, although I am a talmid of
8 years and my son is just there for the first year, tells me a Shtikkel
from HIS - OUR - YOUR Rosh Yeshivah. Each of those is true but each conveys
a very different message.
MY RY simply is crude by its ignoring of my 8 years of being a Talmid
OUR RY suggests an equivalence, but are we equal? Is not my experience and
depth of understanding of the RY not greater than that of my son who is
just beginning his life as a Talmid?

however, YOUR RY captures the proper balance. It is not a denial nor an
exclusion but a declaration of honour - you know him and his Torah better
than I do

And so the wise son is not excluding himself but honouring his parents and
living the tradition that we learn from those who are a step closer to the
Mesorah, to the ancient valuable traditions that form the fabric of our
life and our Torah


Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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Message: 2
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:33:18 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] the importance of time and EY


One of the differences between a free man and a slave is time.
A free time can decide what to do with his time while time means nothing to
a slave.
If a master tells his slave to do meaningless work for the day it makes no
difference to slave
whether his time is useful or not

The gemara states that someone who lives outside of EY is like someone who
has no G-d.
I heard an explanation that a difference between EY and outside relates to
time.
A Jew in western society has his calendar governed by Xtian holidays. He
gets off for
Xmas and New Years. In Europe there are many more holidays related to
various saints.

One is not supposed to work on erev Pesach after noon. Nevertheless I know
of Jews who work
yntil late in the afternoon. After all they are already taking off 2 days
Yomtov and then a week later another 2 days and possibly (part of) chol
hamoed. There are limits as to how much one can take off. I know of many
who eat their seudah on Purim in their office, they cant afford another day
off.

OTOH in Israel the calendar is governed by the Jewish days. Even if a
chiloni goes to the park on Rosh Hashana he knows that it is a Jewish
holiday. Erev Pesach is ghenerally a day off.
Even chol hamoed is a half day work while schools (and universities) are
closed.
Hence anyone living in Israel knows about G-d because his time is governed
by Jewish values. Someome who lives outside of Israel is like not having a
G-d because his time is governed by outside values

Chag Kasher Vesameach

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 3
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 18:58:34 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The 5th cup


Rav Rimon brings in his hagada that Rav Kasher tz"l thought with the 
return to Israel and the Kibbutz Galiyot/Itchalta D'Geula, one should 
recite the 5th pasuk and drink a 5th cup of wine.  Rav Rimon notes that 
this psak has not been accepted. If someone wishes to recite the 5th 
pasuk and darshen it as part of the general night of learning, that is 
certainly permitted.

Ben



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Message: 4
From: Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 19:06:07 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The 5th cup


On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:

> Rav Rimon brings in his hagada that Rav Kasher tz"l thought with the
> return to Israel and the Kibbutz Galiyot/Itchalta D'Geula, one should
> recite the 5th pasuk and drink a 5th cup of wine.  Rav Rimon notes that
> this psak has not been accepted. If someone wishes to recite the 5th pasuk
> and darshen it as part of the general night of learning, that is certainly
> permitted.


Does he say when that cup should be drunk? In general, I thought the
Halacha was that you are allowed to drink extra cups between cups 2 and 3,
but not between 1 & 2, to not be drunk during maggid, and not between 3 & 4
(or after 4) to not look like we are actually having a 5th cup.

Kol Tuv,

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:26:47 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The 5th cup


Yesterday I read the Shabbos Hagodol proclamation in the Italian machzor.
Just as on Shabbos Mevorchim and on the Shabbos before the minor fasts
they announce the date of the coming event, "that all, great and small,
should know that we have rosh chodesh on this day", etc.  But unlike those
declarations, this one is a long piyut that includes several midrashim that
I hadn't heard before (the calendar rule of "lo adu rosh velo badu pesach"
was proclaimed by R Eliezer in the days of the second bayis after an
apparition of Hashem Himself; the Jews were miraculously transported to
EY to make the korban pesach and then returned to Egypt in order to leave
it properly).  It also explains the reason for various parts of the seder.
It gives a reason for the four cups, and then it gives a reason for "the
fifth cup that we drink over hallel".   Apparently when and where the piyut
was written, the fifth cup was so standard that it had to be explained
among the other standard parts of the seder.


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 6
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:40:14 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The 5th cup


I've never understood why people look at v'heiveiti as a 5th lashon of 
geula, particularly when it's implicit in v'hotzeiti.  V'hayiti seems 
much more appropriate.

On 3/24/2013 11:58 AM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Rav Rimon brings in his hagada that Rav Kasher tz"l thought with the 
> return to Israel and the Kibbutz Galiyot/Itchalta D'Geula, one should 
> recite the 5th pasuk and drink a 5th cup of wine.  Rav Rimon notes 
> that this psak has not been accepted. If someone wishes to recite the 
> 5th pasuk and darshen it as part of the general night of learning, 
> that is certainly permitted.
>
> Ben
>
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Message: 7
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:07:28 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kitniyot


On 3/22/2013 2:57 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 02:33:38PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>
>> On 3/22/2013 7:50 AM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
>>
>>> But even so, he is in the minority, isn't he? Are there ANY major nosei
>>> keilim or acharonim or poskim who advocate the wholesale abandonment of
>>> this minhag, for Ashkenazim?
>>>
>> Certainly.  But if he brings sources and they don't, it doesn't matter.
>> A daat yachid with sources backing him is preferable to a rov that
>> simply dismisses the issue.
>>
> I disagree. See my most recent blog post
> <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2013/03/tzav.shtml>.
> The topic is the implications of the difference between a legislative
> process and a fact-finding one, including the need to think in terms
> of what gives a ruling authority, not what makes the most sense from
> a historical or scientific perspective.
>

With all due respect, mitzvah isn't passive.  It's factitive, which is 
sometimes consider intensive.  The opposite of passive.

And the reason we should correct the mistaken ("evolved") version of 
what a kezayit is is because the current measures lead to violations in 
other areas.  Bal tashchit, for one.  General gasut, for another.  The 
impossibility of finishing a shiur toch kdei dibbur for yet another. 
But the biggest reason of all is that the inflated shiurim were 
obviously the best that the poskim could do, lacking the actual olives 
to compare them to.  That being the case, the actual fact doesn't 
constitute a historical argument; it constitutes a reality-based argument.

If there were a plague that killed most of the chickens, and 100 years 
from now, a rav paskened that a particular bird was a chicken, simply 
due to the fact that he didn't know otherwise, that wouldn't make it a 
chicken.  And producing a real chicken would override that psak.

I think this is a philosophical issue that has far wider implications. 
I see it as consonant with your argument that the Mabul could have been 
an event that never actually happened in the physical world. 
Ironically, in one case, your philosophy results in what seems to be a 
much more traditional view (vis kazayit), but in another, it results in 
what seems to be a much more non-traditional view (vis the Mabul).  In 
both cases, though, it looks like an issue of raising process above 
reality.  I can understand the argument, but I don't think it is compelling.

Lisa



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Message: 8
From: "Kenneth Miller" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 23:59:25 GMT
Subject:
[Avodah] Minhagim for Baalei Teshuva


In the thread titled "Kitniyot", R"n Lisa Liel wrote:

> Not to mention the fact that baalei teshuva, not having a
> family minhag of kitniyot avoidance, should certainly not
> be bound by it.

If a baal teshuva doesn't have a family minhag of avoiding music during sefiras haomer, should he be bound by that minhag anyway?

If a baal teshuva doesn't have a family minhag how long to wait between meat and milk, can he just make up his own minhag?

If a male baal teshuva is from a family where the minhag is to have his head covered only in shul, can he continue that minhag?

My understanding is that in all of these cases, he should try to determine
where his ancestors are from, and try to follow the minhagim of that place.
As stronger question might be for a person who has no ancestors - a ger -
but my understanding is that the established practice is for a ger to take
on the minhagim of the beis din that converted him.

In any case, I would be surprised to learn that baalei teshuva of Ashkenaz
ancestry, or geirim of Ashkenaz batei din, are allowed to simply choose to
decline accepting any established Ashkenazi minhag such as kitniyos. But I
have learned a lot here on Avodah, and I'm eager to lean more.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 21:59:16 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Minhagim for Baalei Teshuva


On 24/03/2013 7:59 PM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> In any case, I would be surprised to learn that baalei teshuva of
> Ashkenaz ancestry, or geirim of Ashkenaz batei din, are allowed to
> simply choose to decline accepting any established Ashkenazi minhag
> such as kitniyos. But I have learned a lot here on Avodah, and I'm
> eager to lean more.

It's my understanding that gerim are allowed to choose; at least, I know
one ger who converted with R Bomzer z"l, who was an Ashkenazi, but chose
to adopt minhagei Sfarad, and R Bomzer seemed to have no problem with that.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 10
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 08:06:37 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Minhagim for Baalei Teshuva


I was speaking to Rabbi Daniel Sperber about this subject and he said 
exactly that. He felt that one should have a certain consistency. For 
example keeping gebrokts but not keeping kitniyot is a bit bent.

Ben

On 3/25/2013 1:59 AM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> In any case, I would be surprised to learn that baalei teshuva of 
> Ashkenaz ancestry, or geirim of Ashkenaz batei din, are allowed to 
> simply choose to decline accepting any established Ashkenazi minhag 
> such as kitniyos. But I have learned a lot here on Avodah, and I'm 
> eager to lean more.




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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 21:54:37 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kitniyot


On 24/03/2013 2:07 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> But the biggest reason of all is that the inflated shiurim were obviously the best that the poskim could do, lacking the actual olives to compare them to.

Really?!  The Rambam didn't have olives?!  All the geonim and rishonim
that give shiurim (and there are many listed in RACN's Shiurei Torah and
Shiurei Mikveh) didn't have olives?!  How can that be?

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:03:51 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The 5th cup


On 24/03/2013 1:06 PM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
>
> Does he say when that cup should be drunk? In general, I thought the
> Halacha was that you are allowed to drink extra cups between cups 2
> and 3, but not between 1 & 2, to not be drunk during maggid, and
> not between 3 & 4 (or after 4) to not look like we are actually
> having a 5th cup

AFAIK the fifth cup (for those who drink it) comes after the fourth, and
Hallel Hagadol is said over it.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 13
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:59:22 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The 5th cup


On 3/24/2013 8:40 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I've never understood why people look at v'heiveiti as a 5th lashon of 
> geula, particularly when it's implicit in v'hotzeiti.  V'hayiti seems 
> much more appropriate.

Why is it implicit? Hotzeiti means we left Egypt, it doesn't say 
anything about coming to Eretz Yisrael.



On 3/24/2013 7:06 PM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> Does he say when that cup should be drunk? In general, I thought the 
> Halacha was that you are allowed to drink extra cups between cups 2 
> and 3, but not between 1 & 2, to not be drunk during maggid, and not 
> between 3 & 4 (or after 4) to not look like we are actually having a 
> 5th cup.

When we say Hallel HaGadol (Sh'bishfileinu tzachar lanu . .. ).

Ben



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Message: 14
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 14:30:00 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kitniyot


And then if you take this idea to its logical conclusion (Rishonim got a 
measurement wrong because they didn't have X) you would have to cast 
doubt on every single explanation that Rashi and Tosophot give when 
explaining some word, food, structure, etc from the Middle East. In 
short, you'd have to rewrite the Halacha as we know it.

Ben

On 3/25/2013 3:54 AM, Zev Sero wrote:
>
> Really?!  The Rambam didn't have olives?!  All the geonim and rishonim
> that give shiurim (and there are many listed in RACN's Shiurei Torah and
> Shiurei Mikveh) didn't have olives?!  How can that be?
>




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Message: 15
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:16:30 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kitniyot


On 25/03/2013 8:30 AM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> On 3/25/2013 3:54 AM, Zev Sero wrote:
>>
>> Really?!  The Rambam didn't have olives?!  All the geonim and rishonim
>> that give shiurim (and there are many listed in RACN's Shiurei Torah and
>> Shiurei Mikveh) didn't have olives?!  How can that be?

> And then if you take this idea to its logical conclusion (Rishonim got a
>  measurement wrong because they didn't have X) you would have to cast doubt
>  on every single explanation that Rashi and Tosophot give when explaining
>  some word, food, structure, etc from the Middle East. In short, you'd have
> to rewrite the Halacha as we know it.

No, it's quite possible that Rashi and Tosfos got it wrong about things
they didn't have in France.  We know they got EY geography wrong.  We know
they didn't have the kosher species of grasshoppers, and so had no way of
identifying them.  Their uncertainty about the identity of orez and dochan
is easily explained by the agriculture of their time.  The baalei tosfos
even realised that the common identification of "tzvi" with deer must be
wrong, but they didn't know which animal it did mean, because they didn't
have any gazelles. They probably didn't have olives, so if they were the
rishonim we relied on for shiurim the point RLL is championing would have
been easily defensible.  But they're not.  We have many many sources for
shiurim, almost all of whom did have access to olives.

(The Tzlach, who is the source for the oversized "Chazon Ish" shiurim,
probably didn't have olives, but he did have eggs, and deliberately
decided to ignore them; presumably he'd have done the same for olives,
so his presumed lack of them is irrelevant.  The problem with his shita
isn't the contradiction from eggs and olives, it's the contradiction from
the geonim and rishonim, and from the continuous practise in many diverse
communities.)

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 16
From: cantorwolb...@cox.net
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:04:57 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] EREV PESACH D'VAR SPIRITUAL GENETICS


Very interestingly, in biblical days, Hebrew names were chosen with great diligence and care.
An attempt was made to have the name express an ideal or a pledge, to which the bearer was
expected to remain true for life. One of the most significant marriages in Jewish history was 
between Amram and Yocheved. The m'forshim wanted to know what traits of character these 
two people possessed, that enabled them to rear such outstanding children.  And they explain 
that the clue is to be found in the names they  bore. 

You will note that the name "Amram" is composed of two words: "Am" (ayin, men) meaning 
People (or nation) and "Ram" (reish, mem) meaning elevated. At a time when Par'o and his
followers attempted to degrade the Jews, Amram did everything in his power to uplift, elevate
and bring honor to his people.
Yocheved (yud, vov, khof, beis, dalet) is likewise composed of two words. The yud vov is an
abbreviated form for the name of God and kof beis dalet signifies honor. Yocheved dedicated 
her life to bring honor to the religion and the God of her people.

Thus it becomes apparent when Amram and Yocheved built their home on such sound
foundations (on service to God and their people), it is no wonder that their efforts were crowned
with such success!

May this holiday of Pesach renew our spiritual genetics.




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Message: 17
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 14:39:03 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Minhag Ashkenaz


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 01:33:12PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> At 11:29 AM 3/22/2013, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
>> The RaMa is the master of Minhag Ashkenaz
>
> I have to disagree with this statement.  The RAMA lived in Krakow,  which 
> is, of course, Poland and not in Germany,  the true seat of minhag 
> Ashkenaz....

1- Who said? Just because it's closer to the geographic Ashkenaz, it's
evolution of those minhagim are somehow more valid? Neither German Nusachos
nor East European ones resemble Rashi's as much as those of immigrants to
N Italy do.

2- The Rama heavily relies on the Maharil, who he quotes far more than
anyone else, and who is a better candidate for RMR's title "the true
seat of minhag Ashkenaz". In which case, the Rama's learning in Lublin
or writing in Cracow doesn't make the book any less Ashkenazi even by
your measure.

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The waste of time is the most extravagant
mi...@aishdas.org        of all expense.
http://www.aishdas.org                           -Theophrastus
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 18
From: "Kenneth Miller" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 18:44:10 GMT
Subject:
[Avodah] Vidui Maasros


A listmember recently included this comment in a post:

> ... (and, I confess, I think my knowledge on these things
> is somewhat above average) ...

Clearly, this poster is expressing modesty and humility about their
knowledge of these things, and it is because of that modesty that I'm not
giving that poster's name here.

But the use of the word "confess" struck me both as odd and also as totally
appropriate. It's not at all unusual to use that word in other contexts.
And suddenly I had an insight into Vidui Maasros.

A frequently asked question is why it is called "vidui" -- What are we
*confessing*? We're not confessing at all! We are stating that we did
everything *correctly*! How does one "confess" to doing something
*correctly*?

But now I understand. The humility of the listmember I quoted is very
well-placed. Because humility is self-deprecation, but it is an honest
assessment of one's abilities. And in the context of the post, it was
important to point out that the listmember has an above-average level of
knowledge of the topic at hand.

Thus, I'd like to suggest that confession/vidui is not only for things that
we did wrong. It is for things that we'd rather not talk about. Most of the
time, the reason we'd rather not talk about it is because of the shame it
involves. But sometimes, we'd rather not talk about it because of the pride
it might seem to be. We don't want to be seen as giving ourselves a pat on
the back.

And so, perhaps Vidui Maasros is Hashem's way of giving us a "yasher
koach". After 3 or 4 years of taking and distributing our trumos and
maasros, we announce - with a conflicted mix of pride and embarrassment -
"I confess, I did it all correctly."

(This reminds me of a story about when Rav Yechezkel Abramsky was called as
an expert witness at a trial in England. To introduce him, the lawyer
asked: "Is it true that you are Europe's greatest authority on Jewish law?"
He replied, "Yes." To this, the surprised judge asked, "Rabbi, doesn't your
religion count humility as a virtue?" Rav Abramsky responded, "Yes, Your
Honor, it does. But what can I do? I am under oath!")

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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