Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 49

Wed, 30 Mar 2011

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:28:46 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Women and Tallis

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 03:15:54PM -0400, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
:            Ha-Rav Soloveitchik said: "For three months, you have been
: wearing a garment without any religious or halachic value, it is thus clear
: that your feeling comes from a source outside of the Mitzvah", and he did
: not grant her permission to wear a Talit).      

This is part of RYBS's general position about the relationship between
halakhah and following the Torah. One that I believe is distinctly Brisk.

Recall that this is someone who wondered for years what the value of
nevu'ah was, given that it can't relay halakhah. Most of us place more
importance on things that move us spiritually and never would have even
asked the question. Nevu'ah is for mussar, it's for deveiqus -- it can
have value without contributing to the din.

We do many things that come from sources outside the mitzvah. "Hinei
Keil yeshuasi" before Havdalah, for example. The particular patterns of
hand washing most qehillos use for neigl vasr or before hamotzi. Qabbalas
Shabbos. Etc, etc, etc...

Why is this woman wanting to do something that makes her feel connected
to the Borei valueless just because it is non-halachic? Would RYBS have
given the same advice to NCSY and tell them to stop doing kumzitzin or
a pre-havdalah "ebbing" for an hour?

This is the poseiq who created a new variant of the minhagim of aveilus
during the 3 weeks and 9 days because of his position that all minhagim
are stamped with the matbei'os of halakhah, and thus the aveilus of this
period must parallel to the kinds of mourning of the mitzvah derabbanan
of aveilus.

Most of us simply don't view halakhah this way, so I don't see how citing
RYBS's answer can be fit into our worldview.

That said, I see value to R' Aviner's observation about yuhara. It's
for this reason that when I first got ahold of murex dyed strings,
my father only wore them on his tallis qatan, not on display. (My own
tallis qatan's strings /are/ on display...)

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
mi...@aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard

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Message: 2
From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <r...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:07:49 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Baruch Mordechai (was re:sobering thoughts for

      To my comment,
 <I claim no expertise in dikduk, but it is my understanding that there
is no such thing as a chataf other than under a guttural...
 in kaddish shaleim), where the syllable is an open one. If this is
 correct, then those who have a chataf-kamatz under the dalet in Mord'chai
 should read it as a full kamatz katan, not as a chataf kamatz.>

     RMicha Berger responded

 <I expected you to end with "should reach it as a sheva na". That's what
R Mordechai Breuer concludes in one of the appendices to his Tanakh.>

     I was unaware of R. Breuer's conclusion.  However, if such is the
     case, why is the chataf-kamatz symbol used, instead of the
     chataf-patach which is the symbol chosen to represent sh'va na, in
     words such as hal'lu and bor'chu?

    RMB wrote further

<In any case, the name probably isn't Hebrew -- why assume it follows
Hebrew rules of niqud?>

     The name might not follow the rules of nikkud, but the nikkud follows
     the rules of nikkud.  Thus, a foreign name might appear whose accent
     is three syllables before the last in a word, violating a rule of
     Hebrew which has accents only the ultimate, penultimate and (rarely)
     propenultimate syllables.	The vowels represented by the symbols,
     however, do not change because they are being used to express a
     foreign name -- and Hebrew does not have a chataf under a


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Message: 3
From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <r...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:41:42 GMT
Re: [Avodah] colors in the gemara

<The Amutat P'til Tekhelet is chosheish for the possibility that tekheiles
is a term for a specific wool of a specific dye, and therefore dye the
wool before spinning it. This way, one has a pesil made of already existing
tekheiles, and one avoids problems of "'ta'aseh' -- velo min ha'asui">

     Since the asiya is only mentioned in conjunction with placing the
     g'dilim in the beged, where is there a chashash of "lo min he'asuy" on
     the making of the g'dilim themselves?  It would only be a problem if
     the dyeing were done after the strand was in the beged, but not in the
     making of the strand itself.


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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:48:41 -0400
[Avodah] Kashrus of Dishwasher Detergent or Rinsing Agent

On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 07:44:02AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote to Areivim:
> From  http://www.kashrut.com/Alerts/
> The following kashruth information is from a question to the OU on March 
> 18, 2011 and additional information on March 23, 2011.
> Finish? Jet-Dry? Rinse Agent is certified as kosher, the OU symbol was 
> inadvertently omitted from the new label.

This is the very stuff we invoke when needing to matir dishwasher mixups
as making the food touching the dishes nosein ta'am lifgam! Whether or
not that heter works is an issue of whether a pre-rinse cycle already
treifed them up. It's agreed that this substance isn't food.

This certification must be for some reason like Reckitt Benckiser's
marketing dept. finding that outside certification reassures the consumer
(Jewish and non-Jewish) that their Finish Jet-Dry rinse agent doesn't
contain anything disgusting. Not that the OU itself believes certification
is required for kashrus. See their web site, at
<http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/1377692>. To be
concerned for the kashrus of Jet Dry is to be be more machmir than the
Arukh haShulchan, the Mishnah Berurah, Rav Moshe Feinstein and R'

To quote the OU:
    The primary basis of prohibiting animal fat based soap (see the web
    site for the machloqes Shach and Taz on that point), which is to
    view their application to one's body as ingesting, does not apply
    to dishwashing soaps. Moreover, because of its unpalatable nature,
    dishwashing soap can not be considered a food. Since dishwashing
    soap does not have food status, based on gemara Avodah Zarah 67a,
    it can not be considered non-kosher even when containing non-kosher
    components. Moreover, this should apply to during Pesach as well,
    since these soaps are clearly nifsal meachilas adom and even
    meachilas kelev.

    A lenient position based on the gemara in Avodah Zarah should apply
    even if dishwashing soap would contain non-kosher components in
    significant proportions. However, it is interesting to note that
    in reality the likelihood that a soap would contain non-kosher or
    animal derivatives is very minimal.


Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

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Message: 5
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 08:19:51 -0700
[Avodah] delineating apikorus

he of course doesnt delineate how far up the non-orthopraxic chain r kook 
would consider muttar.   i think standard haredi thinking would include 
any non-O  rabbi  in the apikorus chain , no? which then gets into liberal 
O  as also suspect ?

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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 10:44:47 -0400
Re: [Avodah] car alarms and shabbat 48

[RZS is replying to an off-list question asking for the sevara behind R'
Sherlo's pesaq which RET pointed us to when he posted:
> can one turn off a car alarm on shabbat
> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4030099,00.html

If you read the article you see that the issur involved is not in fact
chilul shabbos, even midrabanan, but lifnei iver. And R Sherlo here
paskens that a lifnei iver of a drabanan, when you ask the person to
at least do it with a shinuy, and where he is merely trying to mitigate
damage that you are doing to him and to the whole public (and which you
really have an obligation to mitigate), is muttar. One can disagree with
that psak, but it doesn't seem unreasonable.

An analogy can be made from the law that if there is broken glass on
the street (in a karmelis) one may and should move it to the side of
the street, violating the issur derabbanan of carrying in a karmelis for
the sake of removing a public danger. Now the danger from broken glass
in the street is obviously higher than that of a blaring car alarm;
but the issur allowed is also stronger than the one R Sherlo allowed:
one is told to do the issur beyodayim, and without a shinuy, and there's
no question that carrying in a karmelis *is* an issur. In our case 1) one
is not doing anything beyodayim, but merely allowing someone else to do
it, someone who is mechalel shabbos anyway; it's two sides of the river,
but the nazir already has a case of wine on his side; 2) one is asking
the policeman to do it with a shinuy; 3) although we are noheg issur,
it's not 100% certain that there is any issur at all; and 4) you are the
"baal habor".

[RZS added in a second email... -micha]

On the other hand, one could argue that lifnei iver of a derabbanan is
a de'oraisa!  If so it would be better to turn it off oneself, with a
shinuy, rather than give it to the policeman or the neighbour to do.

Zev Sero

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Message: 7
From: "Daniel M. Israel" <d...@cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:11:42 -0700
Re: [Avodah] kol isha question

Quoting Chana Luntz <ch...@kolsassoon.org.uk>:
> On the other hand, according to the Magen
> Avraham, arguably were such a man to go, the women would end up being in
> violation of mesaye lei according to their lights, if not according to his.
> However, given that lifnei lifnei iver even at the d'orisa level is mutar, I
> doubt that mesaya mesaya is assur, assuming that you hold that the ikar act
> is mutar.  So while, if the women follow the Magen Avraham, they may feel
> the need to go to great lengths to make sure that a man is not able to come
> and see the film, because of mesaye lei, and by going a man might cause such
> films to be even less available to women and girls in the future, so it
> might be wise to desist, I can't see the halachic basis on which he would be
> required to desist, if his position is, eg that recorded singing is mutar.

I'm having trouble following this, because I can't sort out your  
treatment of what I think are two separate issues.  By "lifnei lifnei"  
I assume you are referring to the indirectness of the assistance.  I'm  
not sure how that is relevant to the question here which is whether it  
is lifnei iver to help someone do something I think is assur, but  
which he holds is mutar.  I admit I personally am inconsistent on this  
(for example, I won't offer someone a tea bag on Shabbos at my table,  
even if he holds it is mutar in a kli shlishi), but I was under the  
impression that there is actually no issue.

Daniel M. Israel

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Message: 8
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:42:25 -0700
[Avodah] culpability for others' bad decisions

on being  punished for issues  that you were only partly involved in....
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Message: 9
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 16:31:16 -0700
[Avodah] what is reality?


r  schwadron says it's tora , even if it conflicts with 'reality'

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Message: 10
From: Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 14:33:28 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Baruch Mordochai (was re:sobering thoughts for

> The Ish Matzliach has it that their minhag (Djerba) is "Mordochai"
> (chataf qamatz) for Esther 5:12 and 5:13 only and otherwise,
> "Mordechai". The Minchas Shai (2:5) says that Ashkanzim have
> "Mordochai" except when part of the double name "Mordechai
> haYahudi", but Sepharadim always have "Mordochai".

Isn't there a question as to in what measure rules of diqduq apply to
imported words and names?

FWIW, I recently heard that the Septuagint transliterates his name
Mordokhai (and originally, though perhaps no longer in Mordekhai's
day, it must have sounded Mardukhai). Source: Lawrence Schiffman here:

For completeness' sake I should add that LS believes that Mordokhai is
masoretically incorrect.

Kol tuv,
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Bilinguals See the World in Greater Depth
* Video: Why is Birkat HaMazon So, So Long?
* Kann Israel sowohl ein j?discher als auch ein demokratischer Staat sein?
* Audio-Schiurim: Die Schomre-Thora-Vortr?ge zu Gebet
* Multimedia Shiur: Was Esther Slow on the Uptake?
* The Onset of Death in Halakha IV: In the Media
* The Onset of Death in Halakha III: Noteworthy Discussions

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Message: 11
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 07:43:46 -0400
[Avodah] Ten Minute Halacha - The Starbucks Controversy-


Discussion of the recent CRC ruling regarding Starbucks.

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Message: 12
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 08:03:03 -0400
[Avodah] Rav Moshe Shternbuch: Is It A Mitzva To Attend The

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=4218

The Bais Yosef (YD 367) brings from the Kol Bo that there is a mitzva 
to be Melavah an Akum four amos.  The Bais Yosef explains that this 
refers to Chasidei Umos HaOlam because they have a Cheilek of Olam Haba.

Rav Moshe Shternbuch (1:721) brings the Rambam who says that this is 
only if the Akum kept the seven Mitzvos Bnei Noach.  Moreover he 
needed to have kept them because that is what Hashem wanted and not 
merely as a humanitarian gesture.  However says Rav Shternbuch, from 
the words of the Bais Yosef it seems that any Akum who is kind to Am 
Yisroel has this status, as long as he in fact keeps the seven 
mitzvos, even if it isn't Lishma.

 From here we learn, says Rav Shternbuch, that any Akum that was good 
to Am Yisroel, not only could we pay him his last respects, but it is 
even a mitzva to do so.  This will also show our Hakoras Ha Tov and 
make a Kiddush Hashem.

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Message: 13
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:48:51 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Ten Minute Halacha - The Starbucks Controversy-

See http<http://www.yutorah.org/l
arbucks_Controversy> :// www.yutorah.org/lectu

Discussion of the recent CRC ruling regarding Starbucks.

And as I said in  audioroundup 138:
R'Aryeh describes the issues raised by the CRC on Kashrut issues and
possible leniencies. A lot depends on the facts on the ground (me - or just
say can't go into any food place that doesn't have supervision, just like
in the old country (sarcasm alert)).

My point was that one can almost never know the history of any particular
utensil or whether in the last washing someone left out the soap or what
was washed together - so , is there a CRC requirement to be mvarrer what
the general  preparation and cleaning process is (and what they've done
today) in any store you go into?

 Joel Rich

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Message: 14
From: "Dov Weinstock" <dov.weinst...@nycadvantage.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:59:16 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Rav Moshe Shternbuch: Is It A Mitzva To Attend

Something that has puzzled me for some time is the labeling of ordinary
midot as somehow constituting a Kiddush Hashem. Honestly, it is quite common
among Jews and non-Jews alike to go to funerals. I submit that the vast
majority of people do so regardless of the religion of the dead person, it
is more a function of the relationship they had with the person. Does anyone
really think that a religious Jew going to a funeral of a non-Jewish person
will somehow be seen as a function of their Jewishness and/or their
specifically Jewish relationship with God?


Dov Weinstock   

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Message: 15
From: "Beth & David Cohen" <bdcohen...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:42:41 -0400
[Avodah] Kitniot

See http://www.scribd.com/doc/51825315/Kitniot-doc

This is an English translation of the original Hebrew tshuva.

David I. Cohen
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Message: 16
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 13:05:47 -0400
[Avodah] Something's Not Kosher at the Matzah Bakery

Please see http://tinyurl.com/4hbrp35

This article appeared in last week's Hamodia.

Yitzchok Levine 


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