Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 29

Tue, 01 Mar 2011

< Previous Next >
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 04:00:41 GMT
Subject:
[Avodah] How long did Nevuchadnetzar reign?


This post has questions about the first two Rashis at the top of Megila
12a. If you're not familiar with that gemara (which begins in the middle of
11b and concerns the calculations made by Balshatzar, Achashverosh, and the
Gemara itself, regarding the 70 years of galus) then this thread is not for
you. My chavrusa (Steve Karp) and I have been stuck on this section for
quite a while, and we'd love some help.

The gemara at the bottom of 11b concludes that part of Balshatzar's mistake
was that he counted certain years as full years, but actually they were
"m'kutaos" - cut-off years. This is supported by a braisa at the top of
12a, which says that "one more year" was needed for Balshatzar's
calculation.

The second Rashi on 12a ("Od Shana Achas l'Bavel") explains the calculation
in light of this braisa. 45 years of Nevuchadnetzar's reign, minus one year
because Yehoyakim didn't go into galus until Nevuchadnetzar's second year,
plus 23 years of Evil Merodach, and 3 years of Balshatzar, totals 70 years.
But the braisa says that "one more year" was needed, because the above
periods totaled only 69 nears, not 70. One year of Daryavesh Madaa
completes the seventy.

This Rashi does *not* explain where the error was. This information *is*
given in the first Rashi on the daf ("Tanya Nami Hachi"), which explains
that a year got "swallowed" between the reigns of Nevuchadnetzar and Evil
Merodach. Or, as my chavrusa and I prefer to phrase it, Nevuchadnetzar's
last year *overlapped* Evil Merodach's first year. Thus, although a simple
calculation of 45+23 yields 68, in actuality only 67 years elapsed for the
two reigns. (Deducting Nevuchadnetzar's first year, and adding 4 for
Balshatzar and Daryavesh gives us exactly 70.)

Here's the part that has been driving my chavrusa and me crazy:

Rashi seems to accept the idea that Nevuchadnetzar reigned for 45 years. We believe he only reigned for 44. Proof appears below.

The gemara on 11b *seems* to accept that he reigned for 45 years. But
actually, that was not the gemara's view; it was only the gemara's
explanation of Balshatzar's calculation of the 70 years. By the time we get
to 12a, Balshatzar's view has been thoroughly discredited. Yet Rashi still
accepts this detail.

Let's take a look at the source of these "45 years". It is about halfway
down on 11b. "U'Nevuchadnetzar, minalan d'arba'in v'chamesh shnin malach?"
Literally, "From where do we know that Nevuchadnetzar was king for 45
years?" (But my chavrusa and I prefer to translate it, in context, "Why
does Balshatzar think that...") The gemara answers:

"The exile of Yehoyachin occurred in the 7th year of Nevuchadnetzar's
conquest of Yehoyakim, which was the 8th year of Nevuchadnetzar['s
reign]... and in the 37th year of Yehoyachin's exile, Evil Merodach [became
king]... Eight plus thirty-seven makes the 45 of Nevuchadnetzar."

But that math is faulty.

If Yehoyachin was exiled in the 8th year of Nevuchadnetzar's reign,
then the 2nd year of Y's exile was the 9th year of N's reign.
And the 3rd year of Y's exile was the 10th year of N's reign.
The 4th year of Y's exile was the 11th year of N's reign.
The 5th year of Y's exile was the 12th year of N's reign.
[insert about 30 years here]
The 35th year of Y's exile was the 42nd year of N's reign.
The 36th year of Y's exile was the 43rd year of N's reign.
The 37th year of Y's exile was the 44th year of N's reign.

So: If Evil Merodach became king in the 37th year of Yehoyachin's exile, that was the 44th year of Nevuchadnetzar, *not* the 45th.

The key to understanding this is that the first year of Yehoyachin's exile
was the eighth year of Nevuchadnetzar. The only way to get to the number 45
is by considering the first year of Yehoyachin's exile to be *after* the
eighth year of Nevuchadnetzar. But it wasn't. Yehoyachin's exile did not
begin after the 8th year; it began *during* the eighth year.

My chavrusa and I spent much time trying to figure out where our error was,
but then we found an Acharon who said the same thing as us. Most larger
gemaras include the "Hagahos v'Chidushim al Maseches Megillah" of Rav
Shmuel Shtrashun of Vilna in the back. He is quoted as "Rashash" in
ArtScroll on this daf (11b, notes 17 and 38), and perhaps not
coincidentally he has a direct descendant who lives in our community and is
a friend of ours.

Rashash does not use the number "44" explicitly, but his meaning is quite
clear. He writes: "Bavel will lose yet another year below, because also
when we counted above that '8 plus 37 makes 45', the 8th year of
Nevuchadnetzar is the very same as the first (year) of Yoyachin's exile."

Unfortunately, Rashash does not explore the ramifications of this
calculation. Any calculations of the 70 years which are based on
Nevuchadnetzar reigning for 45 years are mistaken, according to Rashash.
Yet Rashi *does* seem to hold by the 45 years.

My chavrusa and I would be greatly appreciative if anyone can offer any
explanations or chronologies which can reconcile Rashi and Rashash, which
can show how the Gemara's ultimate explanation of the 70 years can fit with
this 44-year idea. Or show that Rashash is mistaken.

Thanks.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Refinance Rates at 2.8%
$160,000 Mortgage $434/mo. No Hidden Points/Fees. 3.1% apr Get Quote!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4d69ccaf281e44969cast03vuc



Go to top.

Message: 2
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 09:37:12 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] kal vechomer


<<I am actually happier with the possibility that QvC isn't standard logic.
It is listed among middos shehatorah nidreshes bahen, and rules of
logic that were well known in Chazal's day -- such as Aristotle's study
of syllogisms -- are not. The question of why QvC is derashah and not
sevara has bothered me.

And if so, then asking what justifies QvC is like asking what justifies
kelal uperat -- the Author told us the system works that way. It's not
a priori logic, it's a posited rule of the system.>>

However, the gemara does learn halachot from logic. The most famous being
not killing someone to save one's life because who knows that your blood
is redder than him.

On the second question does the gemara learn anywhere the 13 rules of R.
Yishmael
(or other opinions) or is this all halacha le-moshe mi-sinai (machloket in
that?)

kol tuv


-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110227/72549711/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 3
From: "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalo...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 08:33:16 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Odd bar-mitzvah custom in Selish ca. 1923


This came up a few years ago when I was talking to my grandfather z"l
about his childhood in Selish (AKA Seylesh, now Vynohradiv, Ukraine).
He was an orphan -- his father died in WWI -- and therefore had his
bar-mitzvah at age 12. He apparently was given to believe this was the
rule for yesomim.

I have a *theory* about the possible source for such a "rule", but does
anyone here have actual knowledge of why such practice existed?  (I'm
aware there's no actual halachik basis, of course.)

--Joel



Go to top.

Message: 4
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:42:52 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Odd bar-mitzvah custom in Selish ca. 1923


On 27/02/2011 8:33 AM, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
> This came up a few years ago when I was talking to my grandfather z"l
> about his childhood in Selish (AKA Seylesh, now Vynohradiv, Ukraine).
> He was an orphan -- his father died in WWI -- and therefore had his
> bar-mitzvah at age 12. He apparently was given to believe this was the
> rule for yesomim.
>
> I have a *theory* about the possible source for such a "rule", but does
> anyone here have actual knowledge of why such practice existed?  (I'm
> aware there's no actual halachik basis, of course.)

There exists a minhag that a yosom starts putting on tefillin a full year
before his bar mitzvah, rather than merely a few weeks or months.  But
to consider him bar mitzvah from 12 is surely wrong, and I can't believe
there was ever such a minhag anywhere.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher



Go to top.

Message: 5
From: "Poppers, Michael" <MPopp...@kayescholer.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:08:18 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] t'na'im (was "Noda b'Yehudah - How And When To Take


In Avodah V28n28, RZS wrote:
> But perhaps that t'nai wasn't common in the NbY's day and place <
I never heard of "t'na'im" until I began attending weddings outside the
aegis of KAJ/"Breuer's."  Can anyone point to (or write up) a history of
the concept?  Thanks. 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager


Go to top.

Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:29:13 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] The Tube of an Egg


I got up to the mishnah "lo yiqov adam shefoferes shel /btzh/".

Most people have the nusach that this last word is with a tzeirei --
"beitzah". The mental image being poking a hole in an eggshell filled
with oil, so that it drips into the neir on Shabbos.

The Maharil gives the beis a chiriq -- "bitzah", meaning a breed of swamp
reed. Don't snip off the closed tip of the reed, making a tube that one
fills with oil. It better fits the word "shefoferes", as a hollow reed
is more like a pipe than an eggshell with a hole on the bottom. (Nor is
an eggshell much like a cow horn, another sense of the word "shefoferes".)

There is an online siddur (available in plain TXT and in PDF) prepared
by R' Rallis Weisenthall with help from KAJ and from Machon Moreshes
Ashkenaz, "Siddur Bnei Ashkenaz" (lezeikher the Bad Homburg Kehillah --
1335-1942). It's public domain and at
<http://opensiddur.org/2010/11/siddur-b
nei-ashkenaz-a-german-rite-siddur-prepared-by-r-rallis-wiesenthal/>
(or <http://bit.ly/siddurBA>).

Checking Siddur Bnei Ashkenaz, I see they have "beitzah", with a tzeirei.
Often the siddur comments when the nusach differs from the Maharil's,
but not here.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter



Go to top.

Message: 7
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:43:29 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Tube of an Egg


On 28/02/2011 9:29 AM, Micha Berger wrote:

> Most people have the nusach that this last word is with a tzeirei --
> "beitzah". The mental image being poking a hole in an eggshell filled
> with oil, so that it drips into the neir on Shabbos.
>
> The Maharil gives the beis a chiriq -- "bitzah", meaning a breed of swamp
> reed.

The Kaufmann manuscript has "beitzah":  http://tinyurl.com/6btxm79


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher



Go to top.

Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:48:47 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Tube of an Egg


On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:43:29AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> The Maharil gives the beis a chiriq -- "bitzah", meaning a breed of swamp
>> reed.

> The Kaufmann manuscript has "beitzah":  http://tinyurl.com/6btxm79

I can't speak to that. I'm just reporting the Maharil's position. R' Aqiva
Eiger cites the end of the end of the Maharil, in the Liqutim. Trying
to find it in <http://hebrewbooks.org/11762> hurt my eyes, so I don't have
a sharable copy, but on the Bar Ilan web site edition I found it in liqut
#57. Here's the text:
    Shefoferes shel bitzah:
    Amar shehu qaneh agam.
    "Bitzah" peirush brukhah shegedilin bo qanim.
RAE quotes that in full and adds a reference to Iyov 8:11, "haiv'eh gome
belo vitzhah."

The Rambam and the Bartenura define "shefoferes shel beitzah" as an
eggshell. The Bartenura limits it to the inflexible part of the egg-shell
("haqlipah haqsheh ha'elyonah"), without the inner membrane. Rambam says
just "qelipas habeitzah", although the Bach cites the Rambam giving the
Bartenura's lashon.

Rashi also had no problem with the shefoferes shel beitzah; he uses
the idiom in Shemors 16:14, describing an experiment to show that dew
rises. (Really, that evoporating dew has enough lift to lift an eggshell,
if the experiment works.)

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l



Go to top.

Message: 9
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 11:01:56 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] What Characterizes a Human Being as Eved HaShem?


The following if from RSRH's commentary on Shemos 39: 43

Moshe saw the entire work and lo! they had 
accomplished it; as God had commanded, so had 
they done; and Moshe blessed them.

Second, ka'asher tziva HaShem kain asu , ?as God had commanded, so had they
done.? Their zeal and enthusiasm had been subordinated completely ?
both communally and individually ? to the Divine command. There
had been no attempt on the part of any craftsman to bring his own
ideas and his own individuality to bear upon the work by making additions
or omissions. Rather, for each and every one of the craftsmen,
this was his greatest reward: to carry out God?s command and intention
with scrupulous care and precision.

This joy of duty eagerly fulfilled, this freedom in obedience and
obedience in freedom, is experienced precisely when one subordinates
himself entirely to God?s Will, which brings a sense of self-fulfillment
and unsurpassed joy. This is the distinguishing characteristic of the
highest moral perfection in the deeds of the Jewish person. This is what
characterizes a human being as Eved HaShem.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110228/4fd937d7/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 10
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:25:49 -0800
Subject:
[Avodah] chessed to the enemy


http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2011/02/interesting-psak-chessed-to.
html

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110228/471d0d27/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 11
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:40:14 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Dixie Yid: The Warden, the Jester, and the Lawyer


"Dixie Yid" <http://dixieyid.blogspot.com> recently blogged the following
<http://dixieyid.blogspot.com/2011/02/warden-jester-and-lawyer-ch
izuk-from.html>.

He writes that he got the piece from his friend, R' Marc Rossen. RMR doesn't
take credit for being the originator either.

The quote claims to be "Transcribed by Rav Nachum Meir Karelitz Chut
Hashani Hilchos Shabbas", but that's flawed. RNMK was the CI's
brother. The Chut haShani was written by R' Shemaryahu Yosef Nissim ben
Nachum Meir Karelitz, the current av beis din in Bnei Braq, who is
usually called "R' Nissim Karelitz" (e.g.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissim_Karelitz>). And, Hil Shabbos has at
least three volumes, as volume 3 is on HebrewBooks.org. It does not have
this vort on the cited pg, so I assume it's from a different volume. If
someone can fix the mar'eh maqom, I would appreciate it. Last, it wasn't
likely to have been transcribed. These are probably notes, at best a
translation from the original Yiddish.

In any case, don't get lost in my pedantry. Here's the text.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


SLOBODKA'S VISION: STRIVING TO BE HUMAN
Insights from the Alter of Slobodka
Transcribed by Rav Nachum Meir Karelitz
Chut Hashani Hilchos Shabbas Page 31

People think that service of God (being religious) is limited to specific
ritual deeds, at specific times and in specific places like mitzvoth,
Torah or times for prayer. When a person finds himself outside of
these boundaries he feels himself empty and distant from serving God
and good deeds. This creates a situation that when people go to work
and involve themselves in the ways of the world their hearts are filled
with despair and their minds are disconnected from learning Torah and
Divine service. They say: "since our lives are entangled in ephemeral
business concerns and trivial pursuits even if we find a few moments
in the day for Torah and service what have I accomplished... I am lost,
certainly I am lost."

However, pinch yourself (wake up), since God's essence and glory fill
the whole world and since there is no place empty of His glory all the
deeds of man, in all places he exists, in all the times he experiences
are connected to God's glory. If reality is connected and supported by
God and all expressions come from God's decrees how is it possible that
there is a place or time in which we can't serve God?

In truth we find this vision in the Talmud Taanis 22a:

    R. Beroka Hoza'ah used to frequent the market at Be Lapat where Elijah
    often appeared to him. Once he asked [Elijah], is there anyone in this
    market who is "a ben olam haba"? He replied, No. Meanwhile Elijah
    caught sight of a man wearing black shoes and who had no thread of
    blue on the corners of his garment and Elijah exclaimed, This man
    is a "ben olam haba" has a share in the world to come. R. Beroka
    ran after him and asked him, What is your occupation? And the man
    replied: Go away and come back tomorrow. Next day he asked him again,
    What is your occupation? And he replied: I am a warden and I keep
    the men and women separate and I place my bed between them so that
    they may not come to sin; when I see a Jewish girl upon whom the
    non Jews cast their eyes I risk my life and save her. Once there was
    amongst us a betrothed girl upon whom the non Jews cast their eyes. I
    therefore took lees of [red] wine and put them in her skirt and I
    told them that she was unclean. [R. Beroka further] asked the man,
    Why have you no fringes and why do you wear black shoes? He replied:
    That the non Jews amongst whom I move may not know that I am a Jew,
    so that when a harsh decree is made [against Jews] I inform the rabbis
    and they pray [to God] and the decree is annulled. He further asked
    him, When I asked you, What is your occupation, why did you say to
    me, Go away now and come back tomorrow? He answered, They had just
    issued a harsh decree and I said I would first go and acquaint the
    rabbis of it so that they might pray to God.

        When [they were conversing] two [men] passed by and [Elijah]
        remarked, These two are also "binai olam haba.". R. Beroka then
        approached and asked them, What is your occupation? They replied,
        We are jesters, when we see men depressed we cheer them up;
        furthermore when we see two people quarrelling we strive to make
        peace between them.

Please come let's understand this Talmudic insight. Who in the world
should feel more distant and empty from serving God than these people? A
warden of prisoners -- he must feel he's as distant from religious society
as if he was sold as a slave to an idol worshiper. Or jesters who fill
their lives with jokes and deeds of little import. Nevertheless these
jesters with their levity and the warden achieved the worthy title of
"men of the world to come". Their professions were service to God and
fulfilled His desires. In truth if there exists a profession in the
world since it was created with God's will it must be used as a tool
to accomplish God's will. These people were worthy to perform their
professions with proper intention and as expressions fitting to a path
of completion to acquire their spiritual world. If people don't uplift
themselves to be involved in their professions with a shelamus and
understanding that for these professions the world was created they can
lose their merit that these professions are crucial to the world and
transform their professions into missions of little import since they
are not being done with the goal of fulfilling God's will...

These insights are not only relevant to professions but even more so
to the essence of the life of each person and his mission to live as
a human being. Only when people live in harmony with God's will and
their actions and deeds are appropriate to their spiritual potential
and abilities are they called "humans" and only then are their lives
true lives.... In truth one moment of true living as a human being makes
it worthwhile for him to have been created. "More beautiful is a moment
of repentance and good deeds than the entire world to come" (Avos)...



Go to top.

Message: 12
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:48:01 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] tekhelet is midnight blue


On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:10:16PM +0200, R Eli Turkel wrote to Areivim:
: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/28/world/middleeast/28blue.html

Sorta...

We know with more certainty than we know what tekheiles is that argaman
is a murex-based dye as is Tyrian Purple (hainu hakh, but different uses
implied). Which means that if you find a sample of dye, how do you know
the intended use was tekheiles? In fact, this patch has a purplish hue,
not matching the indigo color of kaleh ilan (the indigo plant, a member
of the tea family).

Murex dye is naturally purple. It turns blue by exposure to sunlight. I
would think that one could make a basically blue dye but has a pronounced
purple tinge by fixing the dye before all the purple is broken down.

I can't find R' Dr Koren's source for assuming this sample is tekheiles
in particular.

The other thing is that the darkness of the color isn't a only a function
of which dye is used, but the saturation of the dye. Color can be broken
down into hue (where on the spectrum it is), saturation (the intensity
of the color) and value (dark vs light). Of the three, using a specific
dye only specifies hue, and causes some relationship between saturation
and value. E.g. if you use very very little dye on a white string,
you would get a pale blue -- even though you're using the same dye.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya



Go to top.

Message: 13
From: "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalo...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 19:54:28 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Odd bar-mitzvah custom in Selish ca. 1923


On 02/28/2011 03:42 AM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 27/02/2011 8:33 AM, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
>> This came up a few years ago when I was talking to my grandfather z"l
>> about his childhood in Selish (AKA Seylesh, now Vynohradiv, Ukraine).
>> He was an orphan -- his father died in WWI -- and therefore had his
>> bar-mitzvah at age 12. He apparently was given to believe this was the
>> rule for yesomim.
<<snip>>
> 
> There exists a minhag that a yosom starts putting on tefillin a full year
> before his bar mitzvah, rather than merely a few weeks or months.  But
> to consider him bar mitzvah from 12 is surely wrong, and I can't believe
> there was ever such a minhag anywhere.

I had not heard of such a minhag, but that is interesting.  Do you know
of a reason for the minhag?

My grandfather's memory was that he was told, "a yossom has his bar
mitzvah at age 12".  This could just mean that he was to put on tefillin
(per the minhag Zev mentioned).  He passed away a few months back so I
cannot ask a more specific question.

--Chesky



Go to top.

Message: 14
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 10:07:49 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] davening on a plane


We have discussed before davening in a minyan on a plane.
I just wished to bring several sources

1. RMF: IM OC:4-20  - preferabky to stand but if if it causes a disturbance
to sit

2. RSZA - Halicot Shlomo p95
One should  daven Shemonei Esrei sitting and not standing in the aisles
since
it disturbs others. He was unhappy about minyanim during the flight

The longest discussion is in a letter from R. Wosner to ElAl.
One should avoid large groups and preferably daven in small groups near
where one
is sitting as long as everyone is properly dressed. The best is daven at
one'e
seat and not in the aisle. If this is not possible then one should daven
shemonei esre sitting.
If the sign to fasten one's seat belt lights up one should immediately sit
down
and continue the shemonei esrei sitting. If one was in a group one should
immediately
return to ones seat and fasten the seat belt without any waiting even though
he is in the middle of shemonei esre

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110301/295d1d6b/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 15
From: Ilana Elzufon <ilanaso...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 14:50:02 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] tekhelet is midnight blue


Not clear to me what the chidush is in this article. The item they found is
not tzitzit. We already know that trunculus murex was used to produce dye,
based on archaeological evidence of dye factories with murex shells.

By the way, if you look up at the top of the sky, even at midday on a sunny
day, it is a relatively dark blue and not dissimilar to the colour of ptil
tekhelet tizitzit. Pale "sky blue" is more what you see looking straight
ahead, at the sky near the horizon.

- Ilana
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20110301/49a1a406/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 28, Issue 29
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


< Previous Next >