Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 93

Sun, 04 Apr 2010

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:03:05 +0000
Re: [Avodah] Moshe's name in the haggadah

RAF (iirc):
: I would like to suggest another distinction, based on the experience
: of reading the Haggadah and derashot: we don't recite partial verses
: *in a liturgical context*, i.e., qeriat haTorah, and according
: to some / many, tefillah, too. And perhaps an etna'hta or equivalent is
: kosher for tefillah (such as in Vayvarekh David, when we segue from
: Divrei haYamim to Ne'hemiah), but not qeriat haTorah, which is even
: stricter. Eitehr way, I suggest that in an exegetical context (such as
: the haggadah), or in a literary context (i.e., when using Scriptural
: expressions out of context), there is no problem.

I guess the issue is defining CONTEXT namely of
"Kol pasuq d'lo pasaq Moshe Rabbeinu, anan lo pasqinan"

EG we often quote simply "v'ahvta l'rei'acha kamocha"
Which may be problematic - Unless the above rule is limited to certain
specific contexts.

Currently, I'm not sure what those contexts are.

[Email #2, replying to my cut-n-paste from Kollel Iyun haDaf. -micha]

> 4. During Shacharis, when we return the Torah after Keri'as ha'Torah,
>    the Chazan says, "Yehalelu Es Shem Hashem Ki Nisgav Shemo Levado,"
>    the first half of Tehilim 148:13, and then we recite after him,
>    "Hodo Al Eretz v'Shamayim," the second half of that verse. How can
>    we recite an incomplete verse??

We discussed this in that earlier go around

In Ashkenaz, many piyyutim etc. Are said "co-operatively" between hazzan
and tzibbur. I would assume that shomei'a k'oneh could/would solve any
issue of incompleteness - so long as the passuq gets completed among
the participants

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

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Message: 2
From: Meir Shinnar <chide...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:21:31 -0400
[Avodah] Piyyut question (vayehi bachatzi halaila)

Question about the piyyut vayehi bachatzi halaila (in the haggada)
It is supposedly by Yanai, and appears in a krova by him.  However, it
also appears in the middle of the krova for shabbat hagadol by rav
yosef tov elem.  Any history/discussion of how/why it appears there?

Meir Shinnar

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Message: 3
From: Eliyahu Grossman <Eliy...@KosherJudaism.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 18:17:13 +0300
Re: [Avodah] No Moshiach

>From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
>To: cantorwolb...@cox.net
>Cc: avodah <avo...@aishdas.org>
>Subject: [Avodah] No Moshiach
>><Hillel said: There shall be no Messiah for Israel because they have
already enjoyed him in the days of Chizkiyahu. 
>>Sandhedrin 99a
>>[Rashi does say: But the Almighty will himself redeem israel and reign
over them].
>>How could he make such a radical and astonishing statement?
>>Or is there something else that we are missing?>>
>RYBS stresses the Rshi that R. Hillel did accept Yemot Hamashiach and Olam
>He denied a personal Mosiach and said that G-d himself would save us.

From my point of view, some of Sanhedrein 99a is a running commentary on
rebuking Christianity. 

R. Abbahu (who seems to have quite a number of such interactions) responds
to a Christian, saying that the Moshiach won't come until the Christians are
covered in darkness. (While "min" is not always a Christian, if you see R.
Abbahu, you can usually count on it!)

A bit after that we have R. Hillel's statement is saying that the Moshiach
came during the 1st temple, (so we can therefore infer that anyone who came
later and claimed to be so was a liar).

Then we have the response by R. Yosef.

Interestingly enough, R. Yosef rebukes R. Hillel and then goes on to quote
the very pusek that Christians use to declare that their guy fulfilled a
Messianic prophecy!

Now THAT should certainly catch one's attention!

I have seen in many places where this type of thing happens. There are 2
methods concerning how to handle non-Jewish interpretation of Jewish
thought: The first school is to transform any interpretation that has any
Christological connection into something else (Rashi, who is not alone in
this, does this in a few places, and other mepharshim take him to task for
it). For example, taking something messianic and making it non-messianic, or
taking something messianic and doing a Rabbi Abbahu on it!

The other school of thought is to say "To heck with what they think. The
Tanach is ours! We shall continue to believe as we do without fear of what
they think" and then davka use a pusuk that the Christians hold dear!

Two ways of dealing with the problem.

In my opinion, THAT was what Rabbi Yosef was doing with Rabbi Hillel, saying
"May G-d forgive him" for trying to change Jewish mesorah to purposely
derail Christian inroads - that Fear of G-d should always be before fear of

Eliyahu Grossman 

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Message: 4
From: Harry Maryles <hmary...@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:11:44 -0700 (PDT)
[Avodah] The 5th Kashe: Leshana haba be'ara deYisroel

--- On Thu, 4/1/10, Yosef Skolnick <yskoln...@gmail.com> wrote:

Would you mind pointing out to me where we invite people to eat from the
korbon pesach? ?The word 'ViYiPhsach' may be taken as "come and make a
passover meal". ?I say this because with all the problems of saying that it
is referring to korbon pesach (written in aramaic, now we are slaves etc) I
would rather translate that word slightly differently than have to deal
with all the other issues.?

I suggested that this is a special galus version of the hagaddah where we
start off the seder by saying "Kids, please realize that we are not where
we want to be. ?We are currently under other nations rule, but next year we
will be free and in israel to be able to make the korbon pesach. ?This year
lets at lease invite people and do the mitzvos that we still can.."
(I addressed this issues on my blog last year. See the latter portion that deals with eating the Korban Pesach with a Chabura.)
The Seder begins with the cryptic phrase: Kol Dichfin Yesei V?Yeichal; Kol
Ditzrich Yesei V?Yifsach. All who are hungry let them come and eat; all who
are in need, let them come and celebrate Pesach. What is the connection of
this to the Hagadah? The Gemarah in Taanis (20b) tells us that the Amora
Rav Huna used to invite people to his meals this way regularly not only on
Pesach. What is it about this phrase that connects it to Pesach Seder?

Rav Soloveitchik provides us with an answer (as redacted by Rabbi Michel Shurkin in Harrirei Kedem - Volume Two).

This is an expression of Cherus the status as a free people that we are
required to feel. Inviting people to join in a meal helps establish that.
Only a free man can invite others to join him for a meal. A slave cannot do
that. He does not ?own? a meal that he can invite anyone to. There is a
Halachic principle of Ma SheKoneh Eved, Konah Rabo. What ever a slave takes
possession of - automatically belongs to the master.

The Vilna Gaon adds that there is an element of Tzedaka involved here. That
of Moes Chitin a Halacha mentioned in Talmud Yerushalmi. By inviting the
?those in need? to a meal one fulfils this Mitzvah.

With respect to the second portion of that phrase, there is a Mitzvah to
count others into a single Korban Pesach. This is called a Chabura. The
Rambam tells us tht even though one may shecht and eat the Korban Pesach
alone - one should avoid opt for shechting and eating it with a group of
neighbors or friends.

This is what the second part of the phrase makes reference to. It does not
apply to the p[oor the way the first part of the invitation does. It
applies to everyone as a reference to the preferable method of eating the
Korban Pesach in a Chabura.

Rav Solovetchik explains that fourth question of the Mah Nishtana is better
understood this way. The word Mesubin, which refers to reclining is used in
the context of a Chabura. That is the way that word is used in a Braisa in
Meseches Brachos (46b). There it states that one should not sit (Yaseiv) in
a Chaburah of Amei Ha?aretz. So here too it is used in that way: Mesubin in
a Chabura.

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

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Message: 5
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 23:57:26 EDT
Re: [Avodah] Selling whiskey/bourbon


From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
>>As noted baal hamaor DOES  allow eating to be m'qayeim tashbeesu so it's
no slam dunk.

CGS noted  this is ONLY aliba d'r. Shimon and we pasqen aliba d'r.  Yehudah

I have already noted that we do NOT pasqen according  to the baal hamaor


Don't we do this when erev Pesach falls on Shabbos?

--Toby  Katz


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Message: 6
From: Richard Wolpoe <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:28:35 -0400
[Avodah] R Yosef Caro's Methodology

Background From the Yahrzeit list

Sunday, 13 Nissan
> Rav Yosef Karo, Beis Yosef, Shulchan Aruch, Kesef Mishneh,and Magid
> Meisharim, (1488-1575). His first major work, the Beis Yosef is a
> comprehensive commentary on the Tur; it took 20 years to write. In it, he
> gathered the opinions and decisions of all the major authorities up until
> his time and cross-referenced them. *He ruled between differing views on
> the basis of a consensus between the three preeminent halachic authorities,
> the Rif, the Rambam, and the Rosh. *The work was completed in 1542, but he
> continued to refine it for the next 12 years, and published a second
> edition.
> After he had completed the Beis Yosef, Rav Caro made a summary of his
> rulings in the form of an index without reference to sources and titled it
> Shulchan Aruch ("Laid Table"). It was completed in 1555 in Israel; it was
> first published in Venice in 1565. Eventually, the Rama's gloss (called
> HaMapa -- "The Tablecloth") was published together with the Shulchan Aruch
> in Cracow in 1578,  and together they became the universally recognized Code
> of Jewish Law.
> The Rambam had published his Mishna Torah without references for his
> rulings. The Maggid Mishna, a commentary on Mishneh Torah written by Rabbi
> Vidal di Tolouse, had referenced six of the fourteen sections of the work,
> and Rav Caro set out to complete the references, while at the same time
> explaining the Rambam's view and defending it from the Raavad. The Kesef
> Mishneh, as it was called, was published in Venice between the years
> 1574-76.

Is there any evidence that RY Caro overruled his consensus based upon a
DIRECT READ from the Talmud. IOW did he ever rule that the proper read of
the Talmud Trumped the consensu of his Posqim?

Note we DO have evidence that he overrules his own consensus.  EG he Rules 3
Matzos over 2 matzos despite the rulings of the Rif and the Rambam, but NOT
because it is the simple read in the Talmud. Aderabbah, the GRA posits that
the Rif and Rambam HAVE the simple read. But RY Caro defers to a braoder
consensus instead of his default narrow consensus.

Gun Moed
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 7
From: Harry Maryles <hmary...@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] WDGW

(I?have been asked to re-direct this post to Avodah from Areivim. It is my
response to whether a Bas Kol has any Shaichus to?"lo bashamayim hi." My
answer is - of course it does.?See below - HM)
--- On Sun, 3/28/10, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

T6...@aol.com wrote:

> (PS I agree with you in rejecting RZS's statement that "ein mashgichin bevas kol" has nothing to do with "lo bashamayim hi.")

See Be'er Hagulah.? To the best of my recollection, what I wrote is there.
The Gemarah in Bava Metzia (59a) is pretty clear. It involves a question of
Tumah with respect to a certain oven - the Tanur Shel Achnoi. There is a
dispute between R' Yehoshua and R' Eliezer as to whether that oven was
Tahor or Tameh. R' Yehoshua Paskined that it was Tahor and he represented
the majority opinion. 
R' Eliezer said it was Tameh. He was so sure he was right that he held his
ground against the majority. He called for a Bas Kol - a direct
communication from Heaven and got one.

The Bas kol said he was right! God agreed with him. 
But R' Yehoshua stood his ground too. He stood up and said, Ein Mashgichin
B?Bas Kol.' Lo BaShamyim He.' We have received the Torah from Heaven and it
is now on earth. We have been given the rules of Psak. ?Acharei Rabbim
L?Hatos. We follow the majority when there is a dispute. R' Eliezer was
then put into Cherem after that. 

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

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Message: 8
From: Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:21:14 -0400
[Avodah] Education of a Rov

A Unique Perspective: Essays of Rav Dr. Joseph 
Breuer, ZT"L, 1914 - 1973 has just been published 
by Feldheim. (See http://tinyurl.com/y86fwfq )

"This comprehensive volume contains 136 essays by 
Rav Dr. Joseph Breuer zt'l, Rosh Yeshiva in 
Frankfurt and Rav of Khal Adath Jeshurun in New 
York, presented in chronological order to give 
the reader a sense of the history of the times. 
The essays deal with all aspects of Jewish 
living: from the everyday challenges of leading a 
Torah-true life in the modern world to the 
emotional moments of the Yomim Nora'im and Yomim 
Tovim; from the world of the Holocaust to the 
rise of a Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael; from the 
learning program of the Frankfurt Yeshiva to the 
education of modern-day yeshiva students; from 
the fledgling beginnings of K'hal Adath Jeshurun 
to its becoming the model Kehilla known the world 
over. Rav Breuer's essays reflect the teachings 
and Torah im Derech Eretz hashkafah of his grandfather, Rav S. R. Hirsch."

I strongly recommend purchasing this important sefer.

One essay is titled "The Frankfurt Yeshiva" and 
appeared in 1920. In this essay Rav Breuer 
describes the qualifications that a Rav should 
have.  (I have put certain sentences that struck me in bold.) He writes

There is probably no other vocation whose successful practice
requires so varied and many-faceted an education as the rabbinical
calling. A rabbi must be the teacher of his congregants. He must
have a talent for reaching and influencing the minds and hearts of
others. He also ought to be a good speaker, which can be a very
demanding quality. The sermons of a rabbi from the pulpit are
expected to be inspiring; teachings in the classroom lively and to
the point; social conversation friendly; after-dinner speeches humorous;
speeches at wedding ceremonies solemn; eulogies moving.
In case he has the ability and desire to be a chazzan for Ne?ilah, he
must make certain not to disappoint the congregants with a presentation
that offends the listening ear. And so he might also be a
cantor. He must be able to communicate with the authorities and to
preside at official meetings; this would require certain diplomatic
and organizing abilities. It goes without saying that a rabbi ought
to be versatile when it comes to literary abilities. A rabbi must be
ready to answer any religious doubts of his congregants. He must
be well versed in Jewish history. It might be helpful for a better
understanding of the Hebrew language to have some knowledge of
ancient languages and of the science of archaeology. He must be a
philosopher and cognizant of modern thought ? and such a man
of a thousand trades ought, in addition, also to be a Talmud Chocham.

We have such a high regard for the position of a rabbi that we
feel certain that he will want to have as broad an outlook as
possible. The rabbi is not only, to use a pejorative phrase, ?an
inspector of ritual slaughter?; he is not only a Morah Horah for kosher and
treifa. In fact, as guardian of Jewish religious law, every phase of
life requires his psak din. His interpretations and instructions are to
be applied far beyond the mere so-called ?rituals? of Jewish life, for
they extend to the broad reaches of the all-encompassing Jewish
religious law, which regulates every aspect of man?s life. It is
wrong to say that Jewish religion is only a matter of feeling [and
not observance], and it is equally wrong to say that thoughts and
attitudes are personal matters of the individual [inconsequential to
observance]. Innumerable pages of the Torah appeal to the hearts
and minds of our people [in calling for Torah observance]. He who
tries to influence the minds of individuals in a spirit contrary to that
of the Torah is as much an Apikoras as one who treats one of our
?rituals? with contempt. If, then, the rabbi is expected to imbue his
congregants with the proper knowledge and proper observance of
Jewish law, he must be able to grapple with the specific practical
problems and intellectual trends of his particular time. It becomes
clear that the candidate for the rabbinate must acquire a wide area
of knowledge in order to be a Morah Horah for the active life of his

Half-knowledge in a rabbi is unacceptable ? it borders on
blasphemy. The study program in the Yeshiva is geared to avoid
this, for its central aim is to make of the rabbi a genuine Ben Torah. No
Yeshiva sees its program as one in which Geonim and Gedolim are
systematically produced. Rather, the Yeshiva provides the opportunity
for the qualified individual student to gradually develop
into a Gaon or Godol. And the Yeshiva, the Talmudic training school?
in contrast to other places of study with multi-faceted programs?
is the only guarantor for such development.

A powerful speaker, a brilliant author, a profound thinker?all
very impressive. But this powerful speaker, brilliant writer, profound
thinker must also be a truly eminent Talmud Chocham, for otherwise
his rabbinical qualities will just be those of a lifeless puppet. 
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 17:28:19 -0400
Re: [Avodah] The 5th Kashe: Leshana haba be'ara deYisroel

On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 11:11:44AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: Rav Solovetchik explains that fourth question of the Mah Nishtana is
: better understood this way. The word Mesubin, which refers to reclining
: is used in the context of a Chabura. That is the way that word is used
: in a Braisa in Meseches Brachos (46b). There it states that one should
: not sit (Yaseiv) in a Chaburah of Amei Ha???aretz. So here too it is
: used in that way: Mesubin in a Chabura.

Isn't "mesubin" a replacement for asking about the meat being specitically
tzeli? If it's about the qorban anyway, what's the point of changing
from the previous list of questions?


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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 23:06:47 -0400
[Avodah] Zerizus in the Haggadah

Okay, so why is our ancestor to the chakham "kehilkhos hapesach"? And
second, why "ein maftirin achar hapesach afiqoman" as opposed to any
law? If it's because this is the last law of the seder, why not "ad ein

So, here's my thought, circa 2nd seder:

We are mechuyavim to keep the taste of the afiqoman after the se'udah.
So, teach the chakham "kehilkhos hapesach" -- in a similar way to this
halakhah of pesach. Whatever it is you answer him, he already has a
sophisticated sense of hilkhos pesach, if not every single din. However,
make sure he is left with a taste of what you taught lingering in his
mouth. Don't just teach facts, do so in a way that he is left with an



Micha Berger             Today is the 4th day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Chesed: When is Chesed an
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           imposition on others?

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Message: 11
From: Harry Maryles <hmary...@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:24:59 -0700 (PDT)
Re: [Avodah] The 5th Kashe: Leshana haba be'ara deYisroel

--- On Fri, 4/2/10, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 11:11:44AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: Rav Solovetchik explains that fourth question of the Mah Nishtana is
: better understood this way. The word Mesubin, which refers to reclining
: is used in the context of a Chabura. That is the way that word is used
: in a Braisa in Meseches Brachos (46b). There it states that one should
: not sit (Yaseiv) in a Chaburah of Amei Ha???aretz. So here too it is
: used in that way: Mesubin in a Chabura.

Isn't "mesubin" a replacement for asking about the meat being specitically
tzeli? If it's about the qorban anyway, what's the point of changing
from the previous list of questions?
IIRC - the 4th question (Mesubin) is a replacement for the question about
eating Basar Tzli. Eating in a reclining position was the usual pactice all
year round. And eating the meat of the Korban Pesach on Peasch was the
practice (Chiuv)?on Pesach. When the the BM was Charev there was no Basar
Tzli on Pesach. The question became obsolete. 
OTOH the minhag of always reclining while eating was becomning less common
at that time. So the question of Basar Tzli?was replaced with one about
eating in a reclining position. RYBS points out that the word Mesubin can
however refer to eating the Korban Pesach B'Chabura.?He shows that the word
Mesubin is used elsewhere in that context.

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

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Message: 12
From: Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 12:26:01 -0400
[Avodah] TIDE and the Lithuania Yeshivas

The following is from page 128 of Hermann Schwab's book The History 
of Orthodox Jewry in Germany. This translation of the original German 
book appeared in 1950. Hermann Schwab was an uncle of Rav Shimon Schwab.

The process of spiritual healing which Hirsch set going amongst 
German Jewry might be described as a renewal of the 'Naase venishma' 
position at Sinai -'all that the Lord hath spoken we will do' - first 
the deed and then profound study. In the course of several 
generations this spiritual life would rise up anew.

And that, indeed, is what actually happened. At about the period we 
have now reached in our narrative, a movement began to make itself 
felt within German Orthodoxy which sprang up from the very devotion 
to Judaism the " homecomers " had so ardently longed to see there: 
the urge of the young men to learn at the Yeshivas of the East. First 
singly, but later in ever increasing numbers, they left the temperate 
atmosphere of their homes to settle down in completely new 
surroundings. Rarely has the process of transplantation been 
accomplished so rapidly and with such success. The young men from 
Frankfort and Berlin, from Hamburg and Leipzig easily settled down in 
their new environment. They studied the Talmud. The Houses of 
Learning at Slobodka and Telsh, at Mir and Baranovich became dear to 
them. States could rise and vanish outside in the world-they heard 
only the voice of the Torah and they spent year upon year content to 
do so. The picture of home became blurred. In comparing and weighing 
up the past and present, the scale holding their childhood's 
inheritance became lighter. Some began to doubt its value, others 
declared that it was not genuine and tried to forget it; a few grew 
hostile to it. Who can judge which path leads nearer to a life 
suffused with Torah in all its aspects-religious, social, human. 
Hirsch's teachings and example had illumined the childhood of these 
new Talmud scholars. In questioning or rejecting Hirsch's 
interpretation of "Yafe Talmud Torah im derekh eretz," they forgot 
that for the best part of a century this interpretation had served as 
a guide to thousands and had saved three generations for Judaism. [53]

[53] About twenty years ago, the author paid a visit to an important 
personality in Lodz and was surprised to hear that the little son of 
his host was called "Samson     Raphael ". "No wonder you are 
surprised," said Mr. A.  G. Fridenson. who wore a "Kaftan" and 
Khassidic silk cap. "During the child's brisrrrilo I was asked 
whether there were no great men in Poland from whom to choose a name, 
to which I replied that I could only regret that there had been no 
Samson Raphael Hirsch in Poland fifty years previously and that I 
wished to honour his memory in my son".
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