Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 49

Sun, 14 Feb 2010

• 1. Re: Habituation (T6...@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Kol Isha - HETER (T6...@aol.com)
• 3. Das Teireh (was: Habituation) (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Chezkas Kohanim (Micha Berger)
• 5. rivash and kabalah (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: S'udas Purim in the Morning (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: rivash and kabalah (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 8. Re: Geirut for marriage (Chana)
• 9. Women: Can women be in positions of prominence/authority? (jew@when.com)
• 10. Re: Women: Can women be in positions of prominence/authority? (Micha Berger)
• 11. "It is an Aveira to Get Drunk on Purim" (Reb Shmuel Kaminetsky, Shlit"a) - Rabbi Yakov Horowitz (Yitzchok Levine)
• 12. Rivash (Eli Turkel)
• 13. The Origins of Hamentashen in Jewish Literature: A Historical-Culinary Survey (Yitzchok Levine)
• 14. No Right of Pardon in Halacha (Yitzchok Levine)
• 15. Re: Mikvah for Geirus/Nidah (Arie Folger)

 

From: "Chana" _Ch...@Kolsassoon.org.uk_ (mailto:Ch...@Kolsassoon.org.uk) 


>So  I'm not sure why Rabbi Kaminetsky thinks it is obvious that  the
>non-scholar will answer that a non-Jew is preferable. It appears to  me 
that
>no, the non-scholar will answer that the Jewish woman who  violates niddah
>is preferable.

>So I'm confused. Why does Rabbi  Kaminetsky believe (wrongly, IMHO) that 
the
>non-scholar will answer that  a non-Jew is preferable? [--RMM]

The point is though, that RYK is not  talking about a non scholar, or even,
IMHO a beginning or inexperienced  scholar.  He is talking about a full
fledged scholar.  

....That said, as I have said when this question has come up  previously, I 
have
a certain difficulty with RYK's example, because, quite  simply, it requires
a judging of the teshuva unlikelihood of the couple in  question.  
 

....But where one senses that there is no real knowledge of the make-up  of 
even
some of the key trees in the wood, conclusions about the nature of  the wood
as a whole does come across as somewhat premature.  Perhaps  more normally
somebody attempting to be a genuine scholar puts their ideas of  the nature
of the wood on hold while they learn about each and every tree,  and what 
RTK
is, IMHO doing, is reminding somebody at the end of that process  that they
then need to stand back and look at the wood as well, but, I  suspect he
might say, only  then.


Regards

Chana

 
 
>>>>>>
I was very flattered that R'n CL recognized my preference for looking at  
the wood and not just a tree here and there -- until I saw that pronoun  
"he."  "He might say....?"  Then I realized that RTK, at the end  there, was a 
typo for RYK -- R' Yakov Kaminetsky.  He most likely would,  indeed, say that 
at the end of the process one must look at the wood and not  just [some of] 
the trees.
 
Here we might almost segue into a discussion of that perennial, so  
misunderstood subject:  what is da'as Torah?
 
And here we might well find two examples of what da'as Torah would say  
about the specific issues we've been discussing lately.
 
1. re intermarriage -- for the masses of non-observant Jews -- what's  
better, marrying in (but not keeping taharas hamishpacha) or marrying out?   
Da'as Torah would say it is better for the individual and for Klal Yisrael if  
non-frum Jews marry Jews, marry in.
 
2. re hair covering for married women.  Da'as Torah would say it is  
required for married women and not required for single women, no matter how many  
interesting and learned articles you may read about, um, splitting hairs.
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

--------------------
 
 


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From: Michael Makovi <mikewindd...@gmail.com>
> Where's the  qol ishah in your example [of Egypt and Umm Kalthoum]?
> Because they knew  where the songs
> were from when they heard a male chazan sing  them?
>
> R' Micha Berger



>> No. What I meant was, the rabbi knew EXACTLY where these tunes  came
from, and far from criticizing listening to Umm Kalthoum, he  instead
allowed her tunes into the synagogue!! What this means is, the  rabbi
implicitly granted his heter to listen to her. If the rabbi thought  it
was prohibited to listen to her, then he wouldn't let her tunes be
used  in the shul. <<
 
 
 

Michael Makovi

 
 
>>>>>
Umm Kalthoum was a very popular female Egyptian singer.   People  listened 
to her on the radio.  Very few ever saw her in  concert.   Her radio 
broadcasts were probably pre-recorded or they may  have been live, but in any case 
there are certainly poskim who permit a woman's  voice if recorded and/or if 
broadcast over the radio, where one cannot see the  singer.  Some even 
permit watching a singer on TV or in a movie, and then  there are even some who 
permit a live show, if the woman's voice cannot be heard  naturally but must 
be "articially" reproduced and amplified via a microphone in  order to be 
heard.  Even in this order of increasing leniency, you do not  find any who 
simply permit kol isha, with no further qualifications.
 
The leap from the fact that this singer's tunes were sung in shul  to the 
assumption that the rabbanim of Egypt OBVIOUSLY permitted kol ishah is  just 
such an extravagant leap that it boggles the mind.
 
In other posts RMM has repeatedly asserted that R' Weinberg unequivocally  
permitted kol ishah.  I do not believe this is true.  Did he permit  women 
to sing solo in front of men?   I think he permitted women to  sing in mixed 
groups, such as oneg Shabbos  youth groups -- not as a  performance, not in 
a choir, not for the pleasure of an "audience" but in a  natural setting 
where blended voices did not readily permit one voice to be  picked out from 
the others.   I don't think this is such a radical  innovation as some seem to 
think and I don't think there is any basis for RMM's  repeated assertion 
that R' Weinberg held that there is no issur of kol ishah  anymore, period.
 
 
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

--------------------
 



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On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 02:08:51AM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: Here we might almost segue into a discussion of that perennial, so  
: misunderstood subject:  what is da'as Torah?

Actually, it doesn't.

Our conversation is about whether the process of pesaq can be
formalized, and therefore studied out of books alone, or whether one
needs experience with a rebbe to get a feel for how it's done --
including things a book can't really capture.

RYK basically said that learning shas and poseqim isn't enough to become
a poseiq.

The perennial subject, which I would call by the Litvisher Yiddish "Das
Teireh" so as to distinguish it from historical usage, is not limited
to pesaq.

The issues of intermarriage vs niddah, or hair covering, or qol ishah,
are all matters of pesaq. The need for a general feel for how halakhah
works is felt by the poseiq getting the question, even if it's an LOR
and not a gadol hador.

Das Teireh differs in two ways:
1- It focuses on getting advice, not pesaq. The question needn't revolve
   around the halachic or hashkafic aspects of the situation.
2- It isn't sho'eil and poseiq, it applies to "the gedolim".

If you take what RYKamenecki was talking about, and assert that the same
feel that one acquires for Torah if acquired in sufficient quantities
can help one be more accurate in other topics, THEN you have Das Teireh.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 11:59:17PM -0500, j...@when.com wrote:
: Regardless; if I was a chalal or if I was safek cohen.... who has
: always duchened, then how could the Rabbis use the fact that kohanim
: duchen to prove that they are not safek kohanim or chalalim!?

Doesn't this reverse cause and effect? We allow kohanim to duchen
because we don't posit a safeiq unless we have reason to. That's what
chazaqah means -- we presume that this case follows the rule of thumb.
(Technically that's what the Sheiv Shemaatsa would call a chazaqah
disvara, in distinction to a chazaqah demei'iqara.)

...
: I am interested to know what other Rabbis have to say. I have read
: that this is a common technique that Rabbis will use.

I think it is, but I fail to see your problem with it.

: Though I do not quite understand the last part of your statement and it's relevance. 

You mean this?
:> The Rav in question did not assume every kohein is a safeiq. Rather, he
:> tried to find grounds for creating a specific sefeiq in your case. Both
:> in the kohein's geneology, and in the wife's story about college life.":

If the event didn't happen, despite the wife's recollections otherwise,
then there would be no problem even for a kohein. I understood you
saying that was the LOR's sefeiq sefeiqa:

1- He found a rei'usa in the chazaqa of the husban's kehunah
2- He question whether, even if he were a kohein, if there was really a
   problem being married to this woman.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.
: 
: 
: I come across articles all the time quoting the Rambam saying "In our
: times, all kohanim have a chazakah"; as if, since it came from the
: Rambam, the chazakah is good for hundreds of years regardless of other
: variables- when the Rivash says that all kohanim are safek kohanim only
: 300 years later. 
: 
: 
: 
:  -Josh S 
: 
: 

: _______________________________________________
: Avodah mailing list
: Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
: http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

The Rivash was a student of the Ran who was not a fan of kabbalah


Encyclopedia
Isaac ben Sheshet Perfet (1326 ? 1408) (Hebrew: ???? ?? ???) was a
Spanish Talmudic authority, also know by his acronym, Rivash (???"?).
He was born at Valencia and settled early in life at Barcelona where
he studied under Perez ha-Kohen, under Hasdai ben Judah, and
especially under R. Nissim ben Reuben Nissim of Gerona
 (RaN), for whom he professed throughout his life the greatest veneration..

, (The Rivash), 1326?1408. Although as is evident from his responsa on
the topic (157) the Rivash was skeptical of certain interpretations of
Kabbalah popular in his time, it is equally evident that overall he
did accept Kabbalah as received Jewish wisdom, and attempted to defend
it from attackers. To this end he cited and rejected a certain
philosopher who claimed that Kabbalah was "worse than Christianity",
as it made God into 10, not just into three. Most followers of
Kabbalah have never followed this interpretation of Kabbalah, on the
grounds that the concept of the Christian Trinity posits that there
are three persons existing within the Godhead, one of whom became a
human being. In contrast, the mainstream understanding of the
Kabbalistic Sefirot holds that they have no mind or intelligence;
further, they are not addressed in prayer and they cannot become a
human being. They are conduits for interaction, not persons or beings.
Nonetheless, many important poskim, such as Maimonidies in his work
Mishneh Torah Mishneh Torah The Mishneh Torah , subtitled Sefer Yad
ha-Chazaka , is a code of Jewish religious law by one of the important
Jewish authority Maimonides...


As to Aristotle I dont think anyone really takes seriously that he
converted or learned from Jeremiah.
Note Rambam when praising Aristotle does not make any such claims

-- 
Eli Turkel

j...@when.com wrote:
>  Personally, I think having a 
> meal later is more chashuv in general, I don't know if halacha agrees 
> with me.

At what time of day do you suppose Esther's mishta'ot were held?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

RET:
> In contrast, the mainstream understanding of the Kabbalistic Sefirot
> holds that they have no mind or intelligence; further, they are not
> addressed in prayer and they cannot become a human being. They are
> conduits for interaction, not persons or beings

One Kabbalah teacher cautioned students to read the beginning of the
Moreh N'vuchim in order to avoid seeing any anthropomorphisms as literal.
IOW only when a student realizes these are conceptual and not literal,
may one safely study Kabbalah.

I'm no expert on 10 S'phiros, but in modern terms they simply strike
me as 10 interfaces - Interfaces by which Hashem interacts with the
material world.

Remember, it's a concept not a physicality.

GS
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

RMB writes:

> I understood it on very different terms.
> 
> But we debated this in
> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=G#GEIRUT

We did indeed, which is why I am surprised that you are still saying:

> A convert who isn't meqabel ol mitzvos isn't a ger. But we're not
> psychic, so we have to rely on watching behavior, listening to what the
> person says, and relying on chazaqos that the qabbalah is real.
> 
> When the person has an alternate motive, it becomes far more difficult
> to rely on the chazaqah. And so, as the Rambam writes (Issurei Bi'ah
> 13:14):
>     ... ve'afilu noda shbishvil davar hu misgayeir
>     ho'il unal vetaval
>     yatza mikelal goyim
>     vechosheshin lo
>     ad sheyiba'eir tzidquso.

The reason why I am surprised is that you still appear to be poskening from
the Ramban when:

a) from Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah siman 268 Si'if 3 it appears very clear
that he poskens like Tosphos and the Rosh and not the Rambam; and

b) the Bach (Yoreh Deah 268, s. v. vechal inyanav, end) understands this
particular Rambam (it is 13:17 btw) as meaning that the Rambam holds that a
conversion is valid even if "no kabalat mitzvot took place at all." (the
language is "d'kasher af al pi she lo l'shem kabbalat mitzvoth kol ikar"),
this being in macholus to Tosphos and the Rosh.

Ie at least the Bach understands the Rambam to have these chashashos because
of his understanding that no formal kabala need be made.  So you are arguing
with the Bach if you insist that this chashash would come up anywhere else
(ie when indeed a kabala was made before a beis din of three), and since the
Shulchan Aruch poskens like tosphos, l'chatchila one would, to follow the
Shulchan Aruch, need a formal kabala before a beis din of three.

It would seem to be only *if* you had no kabala before beis din, then
(maybe) you might have chashashos based on this Rambam that maybe the person
was a ger anyway - but only if you hold that when the Shulchan Aruch poskens
like Tosphos and the Rosh, he is only doing so l'chatchila, and not bideved.

> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha

Shabbat Shalom

Chana

 Megilla 14 b says that prominence is not befitting for a woman, and goes
 onto to use the example of Devorah, the woman daayan, and another woman
 navi, to show how women in these positions end up becoming geivadik- for
 women are more prone to geiva than men are. The gemarah says because of
 this, Devorah's name was changed to "bee" and the other woman navi's name
 was changed to "weasel". 

Of course, there is a difference regarding whether a woman is merely
discouraged from being put in such a position and whether they are
halachically prohibited from doing so. I have heard that a ger is
technically prohibited from such positions of serara (dominance), while
some of them have nevertheless became chief Rabbis. 

-Josh S 


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On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 02:40:58PM -0500, j...@when.com wrote:
: Of course, there is a difference regarding whether a woman is merely
: discouraged from being put in such a position and whether they are
: halachically prohibited from doing so. I have heard that a ger is
: technically prohibited from such positions of serara (dominance), while
: some of them have nevertheless became chief Rabbis.

Shemaya veAvtalyon were both geirim. Yet, as one of the zugos, they
were in a leadership position. The question is how they could serve
in Sanhedrin. One suggestion is that even though they ran the Sanhedrin
as nasi and av beis din, neither actually voted and counted toward the
70. I don't know what they would have done had they needed a tie-breaker
vote. Maybe they had 71 voting members, in addition to Shemaya veAvtalyon.

Dayanus goes beyond serara, as it requires producing rulings that aren't
dismissed by people's prejudice against the dayan. R' Aqiva being a BT
got him passed over when they deposed Rabban Gamliel, and I think this
is a formalization of the same rule. And in particular, women can't be
dayanos anyway (CM 7:4), nor eidos... I'm just mentioning it because
you spoke of geirim who became chief rabbis.


The question of whether women assuming positions of serarah in genral is
discussed at length by the Rambam (very much not), RMF (who disallowed
women as shul president), and numerous others.

(RYBS's objection to women as shul president is that he didn't feel that
a woman's place was making announcements in shul. Simply that it defies
the intentional "men's space" feeling that a shul is supposed to have.
Not about serarah in general, and therefore he allowed women to assume
other positions on a shul board..)

OTOH, the Raavad is choleiq with the Rambam, and says that while a woman
can't be annointed queen, it is possible for halakhah to produce a queen
via inheritance.

There is also the question of forms of leadership whose job includes
making judgments on inditviduals. See the Rama CM 37:22, where he includes
this in the ban of having a dayenet.

RAYK held it was assur for women to vote. (Maamarei haRe'ayah pp
189-194). He formally declared in print:
    Resolved: that the item concerning the participation of women in
    the elections, as adopted by the provisional committee, is contrary
    to Mosaic law and Jewish law and contrary to the national spirit in
    general, and until this innovation is abolished, no eligible Jewish
    man shall participate in the constituent assembly
His arguments do not involve the fact that the gov't was Jewish in
particular. One quote, "Even if those people were correct who maintain
that the idea of what is termed equal rights for women and their
participation in the public sphere according to modern ideas is proper
and acceptable, nevertheless it is in accordance with our spirit, for it
is ugly and unacceptable."

Rumor has it that Nechama Lebowitz (who would have objected to my use of
the list's usual titling all women "Rebbetzin") followed this pesaq.

Then there's the question of Devorah. Precedent, a conditional precedent
-- it was okay because the masses voluntarily accepted her leadership
(a shofeit only leads the subset of the nation who follow them), an
"eis laasos Lashem"...?

Search the list archives.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org        he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org   Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507      a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter

http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/ArticleDetails.cfm?Book_ID=1266&
;ThisGroup_ID=238&Type=Article&SID=231


"It is an Aveira to Get Drunk on Purim" (Reb Shmuel Kaminetsky, Shlit"a)
by 
<h
ttp://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/Items.cfm?SearchType=Article&;ID=Au
thor;280;Rabbi%20Yakov%20Horowitz>Rabbi 
Yakov Horowitz

2/12/10
This was a direct quote from Rabbi Shmuel 
Kaminetsky Shlit?a who took precious time from 
his busy schedule and shared his da?as Torah with 
our listeners on Thursday night during the 
Project YES conference call titled, ?Purim 
Parenting: Keeping Our Children Safe and Sober.?


I asked the Rosh Yeshiva to address this matter 
because many people who heard about our Purim 
program had asked me to clarify the words of our 
chazal (sages) ?Chayav einish l?besumei be?puria 
ad deloi yoda bein arur Haman l?baruch Mordechai? 
which loosely translated says, that one is 
obligated to drink [on Purim] until he cannot 
discern between Haman and Mordechai.


?Chas v?shalom (Heaven forbid) that our Torah 
would consider getting drunk to be a mitzvah!? 
said Reb Shmuel. He explained that the word 
l?besumei is derived from the root word which 
means to sniff something ? and said that this 
means that one should have only ?a whiff? of 
drinking (wine only; he was clear to state).


The Rosh Yeshiva also shed light on the words ?ad 
deloi yoda bein arur Haman l?baruch Mordechai? 
and said that when one sings verses of a song 
when he is in a heightened state of simcha (joy) 
he occasionally will sing the verses in incorrect 
order ? meaning that he will sing the verse of 
Arur Haman in the place of the verse of Baruch 
Mordechai. It is inconceivable, he stated, that 
this is to be taken to condone drunkenness ? 
which is in direct contrast to the teachings of our Torah.


There were many other important take-away 
messages gleaned from the words of Reb Shmuel and 
from those of our two other guests, Dr. Benzion 
Twerski and Professor Lazer Rosman, and I plan on 
writing them in detail next week. But I feel an 
obligation to disseminate the words of Reb Shmuel 
Shlit?a today so parents and educators can 
discuss them with their children over Shabbos.



This is an important discussion, one that will 
help us enjoy Purim in a safe and enjoyable manner.

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<<As for the Rivash, quoting Wikipedia, which is in turn heavily based on
the Jewish Encyclopaedia, is worthless.  The JE was written by Reformers
and Maskilim, with the specific intention of denigrating Torah and its
believers, and especially Kabala and Chassidus, which the maskilim saw
as their chief enemy.>>

I dont know about the Rivash but the Ran was not a fan of kabbalah and
the Rivash was
a student so it is reasonable.
I dont think anyone seriously takes the story of Aristotle convertng.
Certainly Rambam
in praising Aristotle doesnt bring it.
There are also others legends that Aristotle leaned by Jeremiah etc.

-- 
Eli Turkel

The Origins of Hamentashen in Jewish Literature:
A Historical-Culinary Survey
By Eliezer Brodt

Please see 
http://seforim.traditiono
nline.org/index.cfm/2007/2/28/Eliezer-Brodt--The-Origins-of-Hamentashen-in-
Jewish-Literature 
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RSRH writes in his commentary on Shemos 21

14 But if one deliberately plots against another, 
to kill him with premeditation, then you must 
take him away [even] from My altar
that he may die.

The whole idea of the right of pardon is absent in the code of law
of the Jewish state. Justice and judgment are God?s, not man?s. When
the precisely defined Law of God ? which leaves no room for human
arbitrariness ? ordains death for a criminal, the execution of the sentence
is not a harsh act that can be commuted in consideration of the
circumstances, but is itself a most considerate atonement ? for the
community, for the land, for the criminal; it is an atonement, just as
an offering upon the altar is an atonement. 
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RDR:I was hesitant to post about this, because it seems to be a practical
question, but if we're talking theory why should she need to toveil for
taharas hamishpacha? Non Jews aren't normally assurah mishum nidda ... and
at the time she becomes Jewish she's not in a state of nidda ...

R'n ISober: You are assuming this is her first tevilah l'shem geirus -
nowadays it is
quite common for people to convert multiple times as they become frummer and
the beit din that did the original O conversion is called into question for
some reason...

Well, in that case, we have another problem. If she is Jewish, then
she should do her tevilat niddah at night, except for extenuating
circumstances, mipnei serakh beitah. And if she is perhaps not Jewish
and is really converting, she needs to tovel by day, when Beit Din is
in operation.

So, if we have a giyur le'humra, she would either dip at the
inappropriate time for one or for the other.

Good week & good month,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Is the New Israel Fund Indirectly Responsible for the Goldstone
Blood Libel? (en & de)
* Is Mu?ammar Al-Qadhafi Jewish
* After the Tefillin Terror Scare
* Der schwierige Nachlass
* Was ist Bitach?n (Zuversicht)?


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