Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 232

Wed, 18 Nov 2009

• 1. Re: Vegetarians (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 2. Re: Bereshit 23: 6-16 (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Bereshit 23: 6-16 (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Bereshit 23: 6-16 (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: yishmael v. the mitzri??? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: yishmael v. the mitzri??? (David Riceman)
• 7. Re: yishmael v. the mitzri??? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Yom Tov Sheni for Olim LeReget to the Beit Mikdash (Heather Luntz)
• 9. Re: yishmael v. the mitzri??? (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: Nagilah V'nism'chah Vo (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 11. Re: Yom Tov Sheni for Olim LeReget to the Beit Mikdash (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 12. Apropos for Rosh Chodesh (Richard Wolberg)
• 13. Source request (Noah Witty)
• 14. halachic attitude to the convicted (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 15. ikkarim: mashiach (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 16. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Samuel Svarc)
• 17. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Micha Berger)
• 18. Was Esav a Rasha in the womb? (Marty Bluke)
• 19. Re: halachic attitude to the convicted (Daniel Eidensohn)

Shayna Korb
> I don't think the story is about the technical definition of tzar baalei
> chaim, but rather our compassion towards animals even while doing things
> that we are allowed to do.

See Tomer D'vora ch. 3 near the end.

"Kein yihyeh rachamei ho'odom al kol maasav yisbarach". He then brings
the maaseh of Rabbeinu Haqodesh.
...
V'al derech zeh lo yevazzeh shum nimza min hanimtza"im...

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

T6...@aol.com wrote:
> If there is any spot in E'Y that absolutely totally and 
> forever BELONGS TO US it is Me'aras Hamachpela, the resting place of our 
> Fathers and Mothers.  May G-d curse the nations who try to take it from
> us, the bloody thieves.

Actually Chazal tell us there are three locations to which the nations
of the world can't possibly contest our title, because we paid cash for
them: Me'aras Hamachpela, Kever Yosef, and Har Habayis.  About the rest
of EY the nations can say "listim atem", but not about these three sites.
It's ironic, therefore, that today those are the three most contentious
sites, that the nations most strenuously insist are not ours.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Using the same word repeatedly through a story, and especially using it
in more than one sense, is common in Tanach.  Consider, for instance,
last week's haftarah, which starts out telling us that the King did not
"know" Avishag, and then continues to the story of Adoniyahu's attempted
coup, with the repeated refrain that the King "did not know".  This can't
be an accident.  See also "vayihyu shneihem arumim...vehanachash haya arum".

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Rn Toby T6...@aol.com
> A big part of it is Ephron making a big deal out of his supposed
> generosity by talking "in the ears" of his clansmen and townspeople -- it
> highlights his hypocrisy.? He really has no intention of giving Me'aras
> Hamachpela to Avraham as a gift -- on the contrary, he is greedy and
> wants top dollar -- but he wants to appear like a paragon of generosity
> in front of his audience.

This is the traditional read based upon Hazal.

Years ago I saw a more "modern" read
As follows
The question is what is the game being played here?
+ Why did Avraham deal in Public and not just with Ephron Pivately
+ Why did he gladly overpay?
+ Why the "dance" between free and over-the-top price?

Here is a revisionist understanding, perhaps based upon archaeology. [I
have since forgotten the Parshah list that gave this p'shat[

Given: Hittites NEVER sold land to aliens [sound familiar? :-)]

So When Avraham first seem to request burial rights, the Hittites
responded "go ahead! For YOU avraham we make an exception! Go bury your
wife Sarah for free! The qever is on us!"

Then Avraham counter offered. "No I want an 'achuzas qever' with a fully
landed deed."
[IOW he want to start "JNF" and purchase land mamash not just get acess
to a qever in Hittite terriotory]

Then the Hittites said:
"If you want to BUY land mamash, you are violating our laws so you must
pay FULL value plus!"

Why was Avraham GLAD to overpay? Because this was the only way to effect
this exceptional bevavior without future "Ir'urim!"

Furthermore, it explains why a town meeting was needed. Avraham needed a
variance, a private purchase from Ephron would NOT have been recognized -
and so in order to have a deed w/o dispute
Avraham needed:
A. A Town Meeting
B. A variance
C. To pay more than full-value

And had Avraham NOT overpaid, the Hittites might have been inundated
with other such requests! And so by pricing the land so high, the
Hittites assured that there would be no market for Hittite land -
[except possibly for exceptional cases and extenuating circumstances.]

Thus, the dance was necessary.

The beauty here is that this over-the-top price ensured that this is
our land for eternity and IMHO we Jews shoudn't cede an inch of that
specific territory.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 12:38:46PM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
: Rashi says "Ra'ah ki ein ish atid latzeit mimenu sheyitgayer".  
: Whoever-it-was-who-started-this-thread understands, quite correctly in 
: my view, that this is in addition to being guilty of a capital crime.  
: According to you what is Rashi saying? How does this add to Moshe's 
: knowledge that the mitzri has committed a heinous crime?

Two things: 1- He was capable of comitting a capital crime; 2- there was
nothing else in him worth saving, no potential geirim in who he was
then.

RDR, the way you're understanding things, what do you do with my
balebatishe question: Since the Mitzri was about to die, there obviously
were no future offspring of any worth coming from him. So all Moshe
would see is the results of the decision he's a bout to make. And then
everything ends. If the asid here doesn't refer to ro'eh es hanolad,
what does it mean? And if it does refer to that which is capable of
unfolding from what he is now, then how isn't it part of baasher hu
sham?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A life of reaction is a life of slavery,
mi...@aishdas.org        intellectually and spiritually. One must
http://www.aishdas.org   fight for a life of action, not reaction.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            -Rita Mae Brown

Micha Berger wrote:
> what do you do with my
> balebatishe question: Since the Mitzri was about to die, there obviously
> were no future offspring of any worth coming from him.
He already had children; see Rashi  Emor 24:10 s.v. ben ish mitzri.

David Riceman

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 04:55:13PM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
: Micha Berger wrote:
: >what do you do with my
: >balebatishe question: Since the Mitzri was about to die, there obviously
: >were no future offspring of any worth coming from him.

: He already had children; see Rashi  Emor 24:10 s.v. ben ish mitzri.

I fail to see the relevence.

1- Our maamar chazal says "*asid* latzeis mimanu".
2- A child already born isn't motivation to save someone to allow his
birth.
3- You see the boy ended up among BY, and it still didn't save the
Mitzri. Okay, the guy wasn't a stellar member, but all the chazal says
is "sheyisgayeir".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

RET writes:

> BTW is the shitah of RT allowing women to say a beracha on mitzvat aseh
> she-hazman gerama connected with teh RT on minhag?

No, it is related to an understanding of the meaning of "reshut" as in
"nashim somichot reshut".  Tosphos (and we) posken like Rabbi Yose and Rabbi
Shimon who learn out from daber l'benei yisroel that benei yisroel somchim
(as a chiyuv) benot yisroel somichot reshut (see Rosh Hashana 33a and
Tosphot there).  The best way I can understand this is that they are
understanding reshut as in effect turning a mitzvah that is for a man is a
chiyuv into, for a woman, a kind of mitzvah kayemet - ie, she doesn't have
to do it, a bit like a man doesn't have to go out and buy a four cornered
garment, but that if she does do it, it is a real genuine mitzvah.  [This
understanding appears to be more clearly held by the Ra'avid and possibly by
Rashi, who seem to hold that the smicha that the women were doing that was a
reshut, was a full fledged smicha, involving leaning with all their strength
on the animal.  It is a bit harder to fully understand this in Tosphot, who
hold that what the women were doing were floating their hands on the korban,
thus not violating the d'orita prohibition of working with kodshim, but
rather were (or would have been absent this limud) only violating the
rabbinic prohibition of looking like one was working with kodshim (see
Chullin 85a d'h nashim somchot reshut).  But even so, Tosphot holds that the
strength of the "reshut" permission is enough to set aside what would
otherwise be rabbinic prohibitions - as indeed is pretty universally held,
given that everybody I know will send somebody to go blow a shofar for a
woman who cannot make it to the regular shofar blowing on Rosh Hashana,
despite that otherwise violating the rabbinic prohibition of blowing the
shofar on Rosh Hashana without need.  One then can perhaps argue in Tosfot
that when they say that women say "vitzivanu" it is meant indeed - that
women are commanded that if they want to they can do the mitzvah - ie a kind
of mitzvah kayemet].

> Eli Turkel

Regards

Chana

Micha Berger wrote:
> 1- Our maamar chazal says "*asid* latzeis mimanu".
>   
It's ambiguous; it can mean a yet unborn descendant.
> 2- A child already born isn't motivation to save someone to allow his
> birth.
>   
Where does "to allow his birth" come in?  The argument would be that he 
can't deserve to die if one of his future descendants would be 
remarkably good; some of that goodness must be due to his influence.
> 3- You see the boy ended up among BY, and it still didn't save the
> Mitzri. Okay, the guy wasn't a stellar member, but all the chazal says
> is "sheyisgayeir".
>   
The Mizrahi asks that question, and, consequently, prefers a variant 
reading in the midrash ("tzaddik" instead of "sheytgayer").

David Riceman

R' Akiva Blum answered my question:
> Psikta deRav Kehane (22:2): Nogila venismecha bo. Amar Rav Avin, ve'ein onu ...

Thank you so much! And such a quick response!

Plus, given that I don't have easy access to a Psikta deRav Kehane, I thank
you for both translating and transliterating that quote. (The Hebrew was
included too, but it shows up as question marks in my browser. If anyone
knows of a browser where it shows as Hebrew, I'd like to know, because many
posters seem to have no problem with Hebrew posting.)

For the benefit of others of the chevra who are interested in the question
and the answer, I'd like to point out that a Medrash extremely similar to
the one quoted by RAB can be found in the Torah Temimah on Shir Hashirim
(it's in the back of Vayikra) on the pasuk cited there, namely 1:4. Or just
look for Note #66 there.

Akiva Miller

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Chana Heat...@kolsassoon.org.uk
> One then can perhaps argue in Tosfot that when they say that women say
> "vitzivanu" it is meant indeed - that women are commanded that if they
> want to they can do the mitzvah - ie a kind of mitzvah kayemet].

See Mishnah Sh'qalim
1:5

There are 3 categories re: Sh'qalim

The Obligatory
[EG Jewish adult males]
The Rejected
[EG Kussim etc.]
And the Voluntary [EG Nashim avodim, ketanim]

Question for contemplation: May a woman or child offer only a
quarter-sheqel in lieu of a half-sheqel?

Let's go to 4 Minim
Since a woman is not obligated therefore -Q: May she take 3 kosher minim
and substitute a lemon for an Esrog?

Answer:
of course not!

By obligating herself, a woman is not creating an obligation to DO,
but to conform to the HOW whilst doing.

Similar to sh'chita and arba kanfos. A Jew is permitted to kill an
animal w/o shechita, but when performing sh'chita a Jew must conform to
Hilchos Sh'chita.

AISI, it's this submission to the rules that encompasses "tzivanu"
implying the HOW, as opposed to implying a necessity to perform.

EG Therefore a woman may not hear a cow's horn on RH since it fails to
effect any mitzvah therefore it violates muktzeh, etc.

And AFAICT When a woman does s'micha on a Qorban, she must also follow
those rules, even thought its only r'shus

So for ashkenazim
Reshus implies no obligation, voluntary

tzivanu implies complying to the applicable Halachos, [which for women
may be a voluntary complicity]

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

The following article documents that it has been proven there is an increase in crime when there is a full moon.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1444800/pdf/bmjcred0
0533-0087.pdfy

Interestingly, Rosh Chodesh is a holiday at the opposite side of the full moon.
However, Pesach and Succos occur on a full moon so we sublimate the full moon tendencies into holiness and prayer.
A guten chodesh.
ri

List members and lurkers:

I recall reading/learning that Rav Kook ztz"l stated that "Aggadita is 
the halakha of machshava."  Can anyone source this?

If you don't want to post on-list, please contact me off-list.

Thanks in advance.
Noach Witty

http://yeranenyaakov.blogspot.com/2009/11/rubashkin-trial-is
-example-of-eisav.html

should the general rule be that if someone , is jailed , for whatever 
reason,  we should  be praying  for  his release?
is there any crime where that is NOT  true?


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http://shiratdevorah.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-is-belief-in-m
oshiach-one-of-13.html

on why  not believing  in mashiach makes one a deficient  jew 


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On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:35 AM,  <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:
>
> http://yeranenyaakov.blogspot.com/2009/11/rubashki
> n-trial-is-example-of-eisav.html
>
> should the general rule be that if someone , is jailed , for whatever
> reason, ?we should ?be praying ?for ?his release?
> is there any crime where that is NOT ?true?

Sure. Any person that halacha feels should be imprisoned.

KT,
MSS

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:16pm EDT, R Samuel Svarc wrote:
: On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:35 AM,  <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:
:> should the general rule be that if someone, is jailed, for whatever
:> reason, we should be praying for his release?
:> is there any crime where that is NOT true?

: Sure. Any person that halacha feels should be imprisoned.

Does that include people incarcerated under secular law? The existence
and enforcement of civil law is one of the 7 mitzvos benei Noach. So
what if they prohibit something we don't, and set the punishment to
be imprisonment?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Rashi comments that when Rivka passed a Beis Medrash Yaakov tried to
get out and when she passed a house of Avoda Zara Esav tried to get
out.

That obvious question is was Esav a Rasha already in the womb? What
choice did he have there? Did he even have a Yetzer Hara before he was
born? How could he become a Rasha in the womb? The same goes for
Yaakov. Chazal state that a person's yetzer tov doesn't enter them
until the age of 13, if so, what drove Yaakov to the Beis Medrash?

The Maharal gives a very perplexing and difficult answer. He says that
Esav was not propelled by the Yetzer Hara to go to the house of Avoda
Zara rather that was simply his nature. The same with Yaakov and the
Beis Medrash. Esav's innate nature was drawn to tumah and Yaakov's was
drawn to kedusha.

This Maharal seems to contradict a fundamental principle of Judaism
that every person has free will and can choose to be a Tzadik or a
Rasha. If Esav's innate nature in the womb was to worship Avoda Zara
how can he blamed for his actions, likewise if Yaakov's innate nature
was for kedusha why should he be rewarded for that? See the Rambam in
Hilchos Teshuva the beginning of Perek 5 where the Rambam states
clearly and unequivocally that there is no predisposition,  every
person has choice what to be.

*Steipler Rav (Within the Domain of Gedolei Torah Vol 2 page 557-560): 
*The rav of Komemiyus, Rav Binyamin Mendelson approached Rav Shlomo 
Lorenz concerning someone who had committed a crime in the past. Then he 
had been sentenced to a number of years of jail -- but had been placed 
on probation and wasn't imprisoned.  However the person eventually 
committed the crime again and now was being tried a second time. Rav 
Mendelson said that he knew this person and felt he deserved mercy - 
especially for his wife and children. Therefore he said there was an 
obligation to try to keep him out of jail - not only for the sake of his 
family - but because it was obvious that being in jail with hardened 
criminals would not serve to rehabilitate him. Therefore Rav Mendelson 
asked me to testify as a character witness at the trial to try and stop 
the jail sentence.

Rav Lorenz told him that while normally he would readily agree to 
whatever he asked. However in this case he knew that his testifying in 
court to aid a criminal would become public knowledge. This would cause 
a chilul HaShem because it would create the impression that the 
representative of the Torah world not only identified with the criminal 
but also offered him assistance. Therefore he told Rav Mendelson that he 
wanted to consult with the Steipler Rav before he did anything. Rav 
Mendelson agreed but requested that the Vishnitzer Rebbe also be consulted.

When Rav Lorenz told the story to the Steipler Rav, the Steipler 
screamed, "A Jew who sins and repeats that sin, it is better that he be 
punished in this world and not -- G-d forbid -- in the World to Come." 
He explained, "The punishment in this world is minor compared to what 
happens in the World to Come. Furthermore if you succeed in stopping the 
jail sentence he will continue to repeatedly commit this crime. It is 
better that he receive his punishment and perhaps learn 
self-restraint...In addition if I give you permission and you testify 
for his benefit it is obvious that every newspaper and all the public 
media will publicize the matter and it will also be a chilul HaShem when 
he sins again..."

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