Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 210

Tue, 27 Oct 2009

• 1. simchat tora (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 2. Re: daas tora interview (Harry Maryles)
• 3. Re: Telling the Truth About Great Men (SBA)
• 4. kosher spirits (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 5. children at a wedding (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: Sukkah on Shabbos (David Riceman)
• 7. Re: shlichei tzibbur, davening speed, and halacha (Yaakov Ellis)
• 8. Re: Telling the Truth About Great Men (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: shlichei tzibbur, davening speed, and halacha (Gershon Dubin)
• 10. Re: shlichei tzibbur, davening speed, and halacha (Rich, Joel)
• 11. soferet (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 12. mei marom (Eli Turkel)
• 13. Re: Telling the Truth About Great Men (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. Re: shlichei tzibbur, davening speed, and halacha (Gershon Dubin)
• 15. Re: shlichei tzibbur, davening speed, and halacha (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 16. Re: Sukkah on Shabbos (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/sukot/paren.pdf

lists here a number customs  and  sources, not  all of  which we 
previously noted 

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--- On Sat, 10/24/09, Saul Mashbaum <saul.mashb...@gmail.com> wrote:



RSZNewman:

http://seforim.blogspot.com/2009/10/interview-with-professor-lawren
ce.html?

interview ?w ?prof ?kaplan on daas tora ?issues




Our own RTKatz is mentioned by RDLK in the course of the interview.
---------------------------------------------
?
This is an important nsubject and was the subject of?of my?blogpost on?Friday. Professor Kaplan has joined the conversation there.
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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The following is from RSRH's commentary on Bereishis 12: 10 - 13
After pointing out that the RAMBAN concludes "Our father Avraham
inadvertently committed a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a
stumbling block
of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the Land,
about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another
sin he committed." Rav Hirsh writes:

The Torah does not seek to portray our great men
as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: Here you
have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form! It does
not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which
we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we
must refrain from doing. 
>>

IMVHO, the Malbim's excellent explanation of these events make a lot of
sense even bederech pshat, thus allowing us to revert to the recognition
that Avraham Avinu was indeed an unconditional - perfect - tzaddik.

SBA

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-DrinkingResponsibly.htm
the star-k's delineation of why  certain spirits  have  kashrus isssues

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A relative of mine is getting married for a second time after a divorce.
One rabbi advised the grown children not to attend the chupah cere,ony but only
come to the dinner afterwards

Is this custom mentioned by poskim?

-- 
Eli Turkel

[In case people were wondering, I was away from home for the weekend,
and my hosts did not have internet access. With this post, I just cleared
out the queue. -micha]

Chana Luntz wrote:
>  The reason I am saying this is that, all the poskim seem to say very clearly
> that the d'orisa obligation is yeshivu k'ain tadiru - you shall dwell in the
> sukkah the same way that you dwell in your house.  That would seem to
> suggest that if it is a form of yeshivu that is not k'ain tadiru, then it
> would not be a d'orisa - but then, what is it, nothing?
> <snip> Some other people who went's solution was to bring a pop
> up sukkah - and when we passed it, we saw a man, who clearly had a large
> family, sitting in this tiny sukkah with a son on each knee, and about four
> or five other sons standing wedged against him while eating their lunch,
> while the wife and daughters milled about a few metres away.
> <snip>  But you
> cannot tell me that what this man at Legoland was doing was yeshivu kein
> tadiru - NOBODY, but nobody eats his lunch the way he was eating it, and
> even less so the way his sons were eating it.

Hazal set minimum shiurim for sukka which are well below what I imagine
housing was like even in those days -- can you imagine living in a 7 tefah
by 7 tefah house? I suspect "teishvu k'ein taduru" has to be understood
in the subjunctive: live as you would live if this were your house.
This explains lots of peculiar details in halacha -- dinim associated with
rain, for example. I just acquired a copy of Damesek Eliezer last week,
so I'll point you to 640:4:11 (the very last comment, on the Rama's remark
"v'ein hamitztaer patur ... ").

There are, furthermore, other kiyumim which one does in a sukka --
l'ma'an yed'u doroseichem (see OH 625:1), for example.

>  presumably the simple answer to
> what to do when one went to Legoland would be simply to picnic.  But Rav
> Moshe, inter alia, is dead against this, and says that that ptur is only for
> a tzorech like business.

I haven't looked at the tshuva you allude to, but I wonder about this.
Hazal compare someone eating outside to a dog; but certainly no one I
know has a visceral response to someone eating an ice cream cone while
strolling, or to someone eating at a picnic. So I wonder whether the
halacha was codified when people ate meals only in their homes except
in extreme situations.

David Riceman

I dont have any advice on how to overcome the challenge of saying the
tefillah faster than you are capable of doing, but this does remind me of
something that I witnessed first-hand related to this issue: One of the
years when I was in yeshiva in the Old City, Rav Neventzal was in avelut for
one of his parents. He ended up being shaliach tzibbur most days at the 7am
minyan at the Ramban shul. Ordinarily, he davened an extremely long
shemoneh-esrei (there were standing instructions not to wait for him to
begin the chazarah). However, when he was shaliach tzibbur, he was always
among the first people finished and the tzibbur never had to wait for him (I
remember that our Rosh Yeshivah pointed this out to us to show us how
important it is not to be matriach the tzibbur).

Yaakov Ellis
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 Rav Hirsh writes:

The Torah does not seek to portray our great men as perfectly ideal
figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: Here you have the ideal; in
this man the Divine assumes human form! It does not set before us the life
of any one person as the model from which we might learn what is good and
right, what we must do and what we must refrain from doing. 
>>

IMVHO, the Malbim's excellent explanation of these events make a lot of
sense even bederech pshat, thus allowing us to revert to the recognition
that Avraham Avinu was indeed an unconditional - perfect - tzaddik.

SBA

_______________________________________________


Which came first the chicken or the egg?  (i.e. how do great men <and
all of us> come to a general hashkafic approach and then marginalize or
reinterpret the counter data points?)

KT
Joel Rich
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<<Ordinarily, he davened an extremely long shemoneh-esrei (there were
standing instructions not to wait for him to begin the chazarah). However,
when he was shaliach tzibbur, he was always among the first people finished
and the tzibbur never had to wait for him (I remember that our Rosh
Yeshivah pointed this out to us to show us how important it is not to be
matriach the tzibbur).>> My first experience davening regularly in a
non-Yeshiva minyan was at a Young Israel in my old neighborhood where Rav
Asher Zimmerman z"l was rav and happened to be in aveilus when I first
started davening there. He did not in fact take as long as he usually did
(the tzibur also did not, at his request, wait for him) but he took very
long, (which was a great way for me to transition to this "style" of
davening).  He was wont to say, and it is verifiably true, that the
difference between davening slowly (IOW "like a mentch") and the speedy
Gonzalez method, is 5 minutes on the clock for Shacharis. 
  Much less for mincha and maariv. Devarim ha'omdim berumo shel olom uvnei
  adam mezalzelim bahem. I remember speaking to the gabbai at the local
  minyan factory on 17 Tamuz the year I was in aveilus.  He came over to me
  and said "none of this slow stuff for maariv today, the olom is fasting
  and has no patience" I answered that "we said selichos, anenu, avinu
  malkenu, fasted, etc. etc. through the day so that at the end of the day
  we could daven ma'ariv in 7 minutes?" He was "bal korcho oneh amen" and
  (I didn't hear) nary a word of complaint about the extra few minutes. The
  Mishna Berura (124:13) says that we wait for the rav to finish shemoneh
  esrei because he's the only one who's davening properly, so if the rav is
  not there we should still wait for people who daven slowly (within
  reason) (whatever that means) (YMMV). Gershongershon.du...@juno.com
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 And, when one is a shaliach tzibbur how do you negotiate these two
 competing halachic imperatives, particularly if you have a chiyuv to
 function as a shaliach tzibbur?

Avram Sacks
---------------------------------------


KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

http://www.jweekly.com/
article/full/40184/quill-and-scrollfemale-torah-scribe-at-work-in-groundbre
aking-cjm-exhibit/%22

in past  , when i have inquired about  the chezkas kashrus  in non-O 
situated  torahs, it was felt not to be a problem.  also, i found no one 
commenting  on the  practice of sofrim writing torahs  for non-O use.
this  takes it one step further, the provenance of the sofer. there are 
more non-O sofrim out there, and  women as well.....


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Yitzchok Adlerstein wrote:
> I've been trying to introduce a friend of mine to Mei Marom. Someone
> recently presented him with a few of the sefarim, and he came back to
> me scratching his head. He found himself in perek 10 of Urie Veyishi,
> and takes the mechaber to mean, in the words of my friend, that even
> after "Tshuvah Me'Ahavah, a person still needs to be purged of his
> sins in Gehenom.  The Baal Teshuavh will enjoy the pain however,
> because of the realization of the ultimate benefit."

In the story with R, Chananiah ben Tradyon his executor who helped
him and then leaped into the fire was "muzman" to the next world.
RYBS insists that in fact he received the same olam habah as R. Chananiah
ben Tradyon.
Doesnt sound like he went to hell.

-- 
Eli Turkel

SBA:
> IMVHO, the Malbim's excellent explanation of these events make a lot of
> sense even bederech pshat, thus allowing us to revert to the recognition
> that Avraham Avinu was indeed an unconditional - perfect - tzaddik.

Corollary:
Making YOU - and every other imperfect being - worse by comparison!

Why is it important to make these kinds of rationalizations? Of What
benefit is it?

Doesn't HKBH have more Hessed when HE praises an imperfect Human as a
tzaddik rather than limiting His selections to perfectos?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

<<AIUI per R'HS - the amud belongs to the tzibbur, if 51% don't like the way (e.g. speed) you daven, find another tzibbur or don't take the amud.>>
The Mishna Berura's formulation appears to be that it is not majority rules, but right makes might.  Even if it's 0.5% of the tzibur.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

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Avram Sacks
> So, what does one do as a shaliach tzibbur? On one hand, there is a
> halachic requirement whether one is a shaliach tzibbur or not, to say
> every word of tefillah, and not just scan it with your eyes.

Lav davka every word

AISI a shatz [bishas had'chak] may skip some lines in psukei dezimra or
in v'hu rachum as needed

OTOH I wouldn't recommend this between bor'chu and hazoras hashatz

But if all this is too onerous, I would recommend to simply daven mincha
and ma'ariv and take over at 2nd Ashrei in shacharis.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

R D Reisman:
> I haven't looked at the tshuva you allude to, but I wonder about this.
> azal compare someone eating outside to a dog; but certainly no one I
> now has a visceral response to someone eating an ice cream cone while
> trolling, or to someone eating at a picnic. So I wonder whether the
> alacha was codified when people ate meals only in their homes except
> n extreme situations.

?Hazal compare someone eating outside to a dog;?

IIRC hazal protested eating in a SHUQ [but lav davka all outdoors]

EG See SA Orach Hayyim 193:3 about eating on a camel whilst traveling.

The issue aiui was eating in the public market place, not about eating
inthe great outdoors. Thus a picnic table should be fine

[NB: I'm not specifically addressing how this etiquette works ha'idna;
rather the p'shat in Hazal?

Tangentially:
I would also suspect that sipping water or a soft drink would also be
OK even in the Shuq.

Raya:
I sometimes give a shiur in the beis knesses where a big sign says no
food or drink allowed. So I asked my LOR if water was OK and he said OK.
Shma mina: that sipping water whilst public speaking does not constitute
zilzul beis knessess

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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