Volume 26: Number 63
Tue, 7 Apr 2009
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:47:28 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] returning merchandise
I don't know the din..
I would call the original camera provider.
Certainly they should eat any cost to return it
If it's a cheap camera they might be mocheil.
If not they were victims of the USPS and should probably get their extra =
merchandise back
But that is just svara
Zissen P
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:19:04=20
To: avodah<avo...@aishdas.org>; Elimelech =
Kornfeld<ekorn...@netvision.co.il>
Subject: [Avodah] returning merchandise
I bought a camera from a major distributor in the US. The camera didn't =
arrive.
When I complained they sent a replacement. Several months later the
original camera was delivered by the US post office (yeah USPostal =
service).
Is there a chiyuv to return the second (actually the original) camera
kol tuv
--=20
Eli Turkel
_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:34:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Women at Funerals
Joseph C. Kaplan wrote:
> I understand that and I also like to think that, when instituted, the=20
> minhagim were beneficial to the people at that time. But if the way =
we=20
> deal with emotional experiences is different today, and if we are=20
> dealing with minhag and not halacha, might it therefore not be more=20
> sensitive, and thus more beneficial to the mourners, to have a more=20
> flexible approach in this area? And, I note, that in asking for=20
> flexibility, I am not seeking to abrogate the minhag. But if a =
chevrah=20
> or rabbi sees that the mourner is being adversely affected by the=20
> minhag, might that not be a time to err on the side of flexibility and =
> sensitivity?
Not if it's a sakanah. You don't compromise on safety rules just to
make someone feel good.
--=20
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people?s money
- Margaret Thatcher
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: harveyben...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:43:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Avodah] returning merchandise
R. Turkel wrote:=20
I bought a camera from a major distributor in the US. The camera didn't =
arrive.
When I complained they sent a replacement. Several months later the
original camera was delivered by the US post office (yeah USPostal =
service).
Is there a chiyuv to return the second (actually the original) camera.
HB: 1. Wouldn't this fall under the category of hashave es aveida? 2. Do =
corporations and or Eino Yehudim fall under the obligation of Hashave et =
Aveida??HB
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Message: 4
From: Chaim G Steinmetz <cgsteinm...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:03:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts
A quick correction:
I had written "The reasoning attributed below to the Baal Hatanya in his
tshuva (not
his Shulchan Aruch like has been mistakenly attributed) is not based on
the thickness of the matzos, but on the quickness of the kneading
process, which was a recent developement, ayin shom."
I MEANT to write "The reason of the baal Hatanya in his tshuva ... is =
not
based on
the thickness of the matzos (as attributed below), but rather on the
quickness of the kneading
process, which was a recent developement, ayin shom."
Sorry for any confusion.
CGS
____________________________________________________________
Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo search =
features.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTEuJCCU9inn3VuNQfv
uNLjg=
kDhrpl8btv31AdJyY84MfbW3eKSGw4/
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Message: 5
From: Chaim G Steinmetz <cgsteinm...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 22:08:14 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Gebrochts
menucha <m...@inter.net.il wrote
=20
a truly idiotic svara for gebrochts is brought- and refuted- in the=20
Shaarei Teshuva OC460, a woman who saw her neighbor making matza=20
meal pancakes (sufganin) and thought that it was ok to make regular
flour=20
pancakes on pesach.and did so....
menucha
---------------
Is it more "idiotic" than what was posted today by someone on Areivim
that "If one is looking for chumrot I have a better idea. I just read
that RSZA
didnt use potato flour because it is too similar to wheat flour. "?
In fact, such a chumrah is already brought from the Rishonim as a =
chumrah
of "Balei Nefesh" (the Raavyoh), for the identical reason.
CGS
____________________________________________________________
Enhance the beauty of your landscaping with a stunning fountain! Click =
here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTNwLizNx3XykdeeaQ5
SZSBO=
CADRWmzgiG8p8RVAOiyoOMjC7EFB64/
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Message: 6
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:53:34 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Bris milah or Bircas Hachama which comes first?
R"n Toby Katz suggested:
> Thus, perhaps the reasoning is that the obligation of birkas
> hachama actually arrived earlier than the obligation to do
> the bris, and therefore takes precedence.
I doubt it. Birkas hachama can't possibly be before sunrise, yet I'm =
pretty sure that bris begins (at least b'dieved) at alos hashachar.
But I was thinking of similar logic: The zman for Birkas Hachama ENDS =
before that of the bris. And considering the possibility of clouds, the =
practicality of it may make it even more urgent.
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Find the right teaching school to meet your educational needs. Click to =
learn more.=20
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsKRHrVrlKpHf1bWkDK
IzVf0=
TmBsGntrdS2y8N9ZTLHmk8zKU1rIJ6/
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Message: 7
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:46:51 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] birchat hailanot
????? ?????? (???"? ??"? ???????? ???????? ???? ??) ???,??? ???? ????
??????? ???? ????, ???? ???? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????
????. ??? ??? ?????"? (??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????????) ???????? ??
???? ??? ???? (?? ??.) ??? ?????: ????? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ????
????? ??? ?? ???????, ?? ???. ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????, ?????? ????
???? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???????, ???? ??? ???
????? ????? ???? ????, ??? ?????? ?????, ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????
????.
Hoping the Hebrew comes out from the ROY halachot.
In summary Sefer HaEshkol says that saying birchat HaIlanoy in Nissan
is just an example as does Ritva (RH 11a). Hence, many poskim say to
say the beracha in each place according to the local blossoming of the
trees that there is nothing special about Nissan
except that is when trees usually blossom in EY
--=20
Eli Turkel
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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:53:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] birchat hailanot
Eli Turkel wrote:
> In summary Sefer HaEshkol says that saying birchat HaIlanoy in Nissan
> is just an example as does Ritva (RH 11a). Hence, many poskim say to
> say the beracha in each place according to the local blossoming of the
> trees that there is nothing special about Nissan
> except that is when trees usually blossom in EY
Nu, and other poskim say that "yemei Nisan" is davka. And since safek
brachot lehakel, the normal rule is that their view prevails. At any
rate I have never heard of anyone in Australia saying the bracha.
--=20
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people?s money
- Margaret Thatcher
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Message: 9
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:01:52 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] birchat hailanot
>
>> In summary Sefer HaEshkol says that saying birchat HaIlanoy in Nissan
>> is just an example as does Ritva (RH 11a). Hence, many poskim say to
>> say the beracha in each place according to the local blossoming of =
the
>> trees that there is nothing special about Nissan
>> except that is when trees usually blossom in EY
>
> Nu, and other poskim say that "yemei Nisan" is davka. ?And since safek
> brachot lehakel, the normal rule is that their view prevails. ? At any
> rate I have never heard of anyone in Australia saying the bracha.
I dont know who the other poskim are. In any case ROY paskens to say it =
any
month and doesnt use the rule of safek berachot lehakel.
>
Eli Turkel
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Message: 10
From: Harvey Benton <harveyben...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:43:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Avodah] Rain as a siman Klalah?
Does anyone have any Mekoros as 2 rain being a possible Siman Klala on =
birchas Hachama as it says re rain in the sukka??
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Message: 11
From: Shayna Korb <shayna.k...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:09:26 -0700
Subject: [Avodah] hachnasat sefer Torah during the Omer
Hey all,
Can anyone provide me with sources regarding halachot of having a
hachnasas sefer Torah during sefira?
I hope your Pesach cleaning is liberating in its own way.
Kol tuv,
Shayna Korb
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Message: 12
From: Michael Kopinsky <mkopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 04:41:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] running a seder
On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Heard an interesting shiur today. Rabbi (from Shilo) claimed
>
> 1. There is no mitzva of simcha to eat the night of the seder only
> the next morning. So he eats only matzah maror etc. and a main
> dish of soup
> giving more time for maggid
>
Forget about simcha - what about cheirus? Is this how a free man eats?
Matzah maror and soup?
While the dilemma of trying to balance everything on the night of the =
seder
is indeed a difficult one, I don't see this as being a solution.
KT,
Michael
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Message: 13
From: Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:28:29 -0700
Subject: Re: [Avodah] returning merchandise
HB: 1. Wouldn't this fall under the category of hashave es aveida? 2. Do
corporations and or Eino Yehudim fall under the obligation of Hashave et
Aveida??HB
Liron:
Wouldn't you say that the fact that the corporation sent another camera
means that if there is a mitzva of Hashavat Aveida, that they had yiush?
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Message: 14
From: Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:32:32 -0700
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rain as a siman Klalah?
>
> Does anyone have any Mekoros as 2 rain being a possible Siman Klala on
> birchas Hachama as it says re rain in the sukka??
Liron:
It is my understanding that there are Rishonim who hold that you can say =
the
bracha for Birchat Hachama without even seeing the sun. While we don't
pasken like that today, it seems to me that there can't be a mesorah for =
it
being a siman klalah if that psak could exist.
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Message: 15
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:15:24 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] birchat hachama
R' Eli Turkel replied to me:
>> The "return to location" I agree, but I'm not sure how you know that
>> they took it as an astronomical event. Again, looking at the beraisa,
>> that "location" is defined by the rule of Shabetai, which is =
decidedly
>> NOT an astronomical event.
> I dont think we are disagreeing. By an astromical event I mean the
> length of the (mean) solar year...
We don't disagree on the above, it's on the next paragraph:
> My point was that early generations seem to have accepted that a
> return to location is happening even though they knew that Shmuel was
> not correct. In fact Rambam indicates that the shittah of Shmuel is =
not
> correct but still paskens the 28 years.
The Rambam:
- didn't believe the sun was created on a Wed (he holds the 6 "days"
were causal stages, not points in time; Moreh 2:30, c.f. Abarbanel
opening to Bereishis, 9th question)
- held that creation was in Tishrei
- knew that compared to his own estimate for the tequfah (Qiddush
haChodesh 13:11) in his day they were marking a date that was 10 days
off (as RET writes)
- didn't have much use for the hour of Shabetai
and yet, as RET notes, still stood by Abayei's once every 28 years. So
why would you think he took it astronomically? Because they don't make
a point of saying "this isn't astronomical"? I'm arguing that until
the industrial age, or perhaps as far back a Galileo, no one would
have bothered. We can't judge from science, since the distinction was
unimportant until the emergence of scientific method, the separation
of science from natural philosophy and alchemy, and the huge success
science and technology have had in the past couple of centuries.
Given that there was no way the Rambam could possibly have related it to
an astronomical event, how can you take his silence to mean he did?
RZS quoted the same idea of mine and asked:
> I take the gemara's calling that hour "Saturn" to be no more =
significant
> than any contemporary reference to Saturday. The gemara is using it =
(in
> this instance) as no more than the name of that hour. It's what the
> hour was known as in the local culture.
Abayei's words are:
kol 28 shanin vehadar machzor
venafelah tequfas Nisan
beShabatai
be'urta detelas naghi arba
The hour is commonly known in the gemara as sheqi'ah. So, I translated
Abayei as:
kol 28 shanin vehadar machzor
venafelah tequfas Nisan beShabatai -- the state of the sun
be'urta detelas naghi arba -- being the time
This is why I earlier referred to Shabatai as part of the location of
the sun, not a point in the week.
I can see RZS is reading it as:
kol 28 shanin vehadar machzor
venafelah tequfas Nisan -- state of the sun
beShabatai be'urta detelas naghi arba -- the time
which is retrospect seems no less valid, although why then doesn't he
just say "sheqi'ah"?
The bottom line would remain that Abayei dragged in the astrology system
when the usual terminology is more straightforward. So in either case,
added to the above about the Rambam, I really think it's hard to argue
that Abayei or the rishonim who were analyzing him were thinking about
what we who keep these categories more distinct would call astronomy.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--=20
Micha Berger It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 16
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:38:20 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] running a seder
RETurkel wrote in the name of a rabbi from Shilo:
> 3. The main part of the seder is questions and answers for the =
children
> and not the recitation of the hagadah. In fact arami oved avi is the
> centerpiece.
If the main part is the questions and answers, wouldn't the centerpiece
be Mah Nishtanah and the answers to that question? That gets us to the
machloqes Rav and Shemu'el as to whether the maschilim begenus umsaymim
beshevach is "avadim hayinu" (Shemu'el) or "bit-chilah ovedei AZ" (Rav).
And according to Rabban Gamliel, the centerpiece would be a third piece
of Maggid.
But none of these members of Chazal place Vidui Bikurim as the ikkar
mitzvah.
Vidui bikurim is placed on a pedestal by a bit of Brisker Torah which
explains that vidui bikurim is used because onlike seifer shemos, it
requires using both miqra and TSBP (Sifri) to tell the story. I forgot
the significance of using the two together in particular. Perhaps a =
talmid
of RYBS, RAS (you still around RHM?) or another Brisker can chime in.
I'm attaching the seider of the seder, as seen IMHO. I think the only
controversial point is that it requires moving Ha Lachma Anya from the
beginning of Magid to being the explanation of Yachatz. That allows (1)
a grouping of the 15 steps of the seder based on when we refill the =
kosos,
and (2) opening Maggid with questions, not a declaration.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Most of us have many divrei Torah on various points in the seder, but
since the very name of the meal, "seder", points us to pay attention
to its order, I thought I would layout the overall structure, as I see
it. We can divide the seder into four parts if we pay attention to when
we fill and drink each cup of wine.
I - First Cup (primarily reenacting the initial servitude)
1 - Kadeish
2 - Urchatz
3 - Karpas
4 - Yachatz
This proposed structure places Ha Lachma Anya as part of Yachatz. We
break the matzah, and discuss the "bread of suffering". The cup is
refilled after it, before Mah Nishtanah.
II Second Cup (retelling the story of redemption)
5 - Maggid
There are three opinions amongst tana'im about what is required for
Maggid. Rav and Shemu'el both say that Maggid should begin with
describing the suffering, and end on a happier note. The difference
between them is that Rav says that this is on a spiritual level,
starting with Bitechilah ovdei avodah zarah - in the beginning, our
ancestors were idolators. Shemu'el says it on a physical level.
Avadaim hayinu - we were slaves, but now we are free. Rabban =
Gamliel
doesn't operate within that model at all. Instead, he requires that
Maggid must discuss the three mitzvos of the evening: Pesach, =
Matzah,
and Marror. We include all three haggados in our seder.
a - Introduction
This includes Mah Nishtanah, and Avadim Hayinu (Shemu'el's
haggadah). The introduction ends by noting that this mitzvah is
retelling the story of the Exodus, beyond the usual requirement
to remember it "kol yimei chayecha - all the days of your life".
Rav Chaim Brisker asks how the mitzvah of retelling the story at the
seder differs from the daily requirement to it. The next three =
sections
provide elements that he considers unique to the mitzvah of the =
night.
b - The obligation to tell the story to others in Q&A format: This
includes the four sons through Yachol meiRosh Chodesh.
c - The chain of events: Rav's haggadah - the spiritual redemption
from "Bitechilah", through the plagues, crossing the Red See, and
the miracles in the desert.
d - Reasons for the mitzvos of the night: R' Gamli'el's haggadah
Then, after fulfilling the specific retelling of the evening as per =
Rav
Chaim, we conclude with
e - Expressions of praise - the first part of Hallel
III Third cup (we just retold the story verbally, here we reenact it)
6 - Rachtzah
7 - Motzi
8 - Matzah
9 - Maror
10 - Koreich
11 - Shulchan Oreich
12 - Tzafun
13 - Bareich
IV Fourth cup (now that we were redeemed, we are in a position to praise
Hashem)
14 - Hallel
15 - Nirtzah
There were 15 semicircular steps up to the last courtyard before the
Temple. The levi'im would stand on them and sing. When ascending them
for certain ceremonies, they would pause at each step and sing the 15
chapters of Tehillim that begin Shir haMaalos (a song of ascents) or =
Shir
laMa'alos. 15 then is a number by which we sing G-d's praises, and speak
of his loftiness. For this reason there are 15 things that Hashem did =
for
us in the Exodus which we count out in Dayeinu - any one alone would
justify the seder night. And there are therefore 15 steps in the seder.
Go to top.
Message: 17
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:52:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] flat earth
I'm not picking on RET< really I'm not. But here's a reply to another of
his posts. I guess we just tend to share common interests:
>> It's not all revisionism, though. It is pretty clear that at least =
some
>> of Hazal did know that the earth was a globe:
>> =
http://fkmaniac.blogspot.com/2009/03/chazal-earth-is-made-like-ball.html
> Yes some but not all chazal. I have a book that claims that in general
> the scientific knowledge of Rav Yochanan was greater than Shmuel in
> spite of Shmuel's statement. Hence, it would not be surprising that it
> is the Yerushalmi that got it right.
It's not surprising because Aristotle got it right. The Romans were back
and forth on it, but the idea was "out there" back in Anshei Kenesses
haGedolah's days.
The Romans were less sure. Way back I argued that the opinions we find
in Chazal simply evolve over time roughly in parallel with the debates
of the non-Jewish scientists of their period. Generally tending toward
the conservative side. I can't find that post in the archives, so I'm
just going to copy-n-paste the less complete version I sent scjm in =
2001.
In the days of Alexander (Tamid 31b), we believed that the world was =
flat.
That rules out the Ptolmeic universe. R' Eliezer and R' Yehushua (1st
cent CE) both describe the flood (R"H 11b) as falling through the heaven
onto the earth. This is the same era in which we have the opinion that
the sun goes behind the sky at night (Pisachim 94b), and that the world
floats on the tehom, or is held above it by pillars (Chagigah 12b). The
sky is a lid that touches, or almost touches, the earth at its edges
(Chagiga 15a). All in all, a flat earth, no orbits.
R Yehudah haNasi (Pisachim 94b; 2nd cent CE) championed the Jewish sages
over the non-Jewish sages that the "galgal" (R' Avraham b' HaRambam, the
Aruch: the sphere) is fixed, and the "mazalos" (R' Avraham b' HaRambam:
contellations) move. His proof: We never see the Wagon (the Big Dipper)
in the south or Scorpio in the north. So, by the end of the tannaim,
we certainly believed that the stars were embedded in a solid sphere.
Ptolmey published the same idea in Almagest, mid-2nd cent CE, a couple
of decades before.
R' Chiya, although a talmid of Rebbe's, didn't understand that when the
non-Jews said the sun went under the earth, it was in an orbit. The
b'raisa supports that idea because "pools are warm at night". So, he
thought that the sun were closer to the pools when it was under the
earth, and not that it was going in a full circle staying a constant
(or near constant) distance. But at this time, Ptolmy's Almagest hadn't
become universally accepted by the non-Jewish world yet either.
And, of course, we know how Rishonim consistantly understood the sun
standing still for Yehoshua. Ptolmeic. Once again, like the conservative
side of scientific thought of their contemporaries.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--=20
Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 18
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toram...@bezeqint.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:13:02 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] driving/taxi on chol hamoed
> Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 09:46:03 +0300
> From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
> I have a cousin who is restrained to a wheel chair and is very =
immobile.
> His son-in-law in Yerushalayim refuses to take a taxi to Netanya on =
chol
> hamoed unless they find a "poor" taxi driver.
> Does anyone know about teshuvot on using taxis (Jewish) on chol hamoed
> including bikur cholim and kibud av mitzvot
>
> --=20
> Eli Turkel
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
This is one case where the question provides the answer - there is no =
such=20
thing as a rich taxi driver.
Especially in Israel.
As to poor taxi drivers - just ask any taxi company rep. about how many =
taxi=20
drivers take on more than one shift a day to make ends meet.
Actually, you can get in a cab and ask the driver about his finances...
So the issue isn't finding a poor taxi driver. He can do that by calling =
any=20
taxi stand and asking for a Jewish driver.
Shoshana L. Boublil
Go to top.
Message: 19
From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 13:23:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts
Chaim G Steinmetz wrote:
> I just read
> that RSZA
> didnt use potato flour because it is too similar to wheat flour. "?
>
> In fact, such a chumrah is already brought from the Rishonim as a =
chumrah
> of "Balei Nefesh" (the Raavyoh), for the identical =
reason.___________________________________________________________
> =20
The Raavyah (d. 1225) predated the introduction of potatoes to the=20
Eastern hemisphere (16th century).
David Riceman
Go to top.
Message: 20
From: "Joseph C. Kaplan" <jkap...@tenzerlunin.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:58:25 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Fw: Returning Merchandise
Sorry; I accidently sent this to Areivim instead of Avodah.
Joseph
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Joseph C. Kaplan=20
To: Eli Turkel=20
Cc: Areivim=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:56 PM
Subject: Returning Merchandise
RET asks:
"I bought a camera from a major distributor in the US. The camera didn't =
arrive.
When I complained they sent a replacement. Several months later the
original camera was delivered by the US post office (yeah USPostal =
service).
Is there a chiyuv to return the second (actually the original) camera."
I don't know the answer but let me tell a true story. The principal of =
a MO high school was interviewing rebbeim. One of the questions in the =
interview was what would the rebbe do if a student asked the following =
question: I went to a store and the salesgirl, who was not Jewish (and =
the store is owned by non-Jews as well) gave me significantly too much =
change. What should I do?
A number of the rebbeim being interviewed took this as an opportunity to =
show their Torah knowledge and discussed with great erudition gezel =
akum. The one who got the job, however answered: send the money back =
to the store owner with a cover letter explaining what happened and say =
that you are a high school student in a Jewish school and you were =
taught that returning the overpayment is the right and moral thing to =
do.
Joseph Kaplan
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<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Today's Topics:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> 1. Re: returning merchandise =
(rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 2. Re: Women at Funerals (Zev =
Sero)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 3. returning merchandise =
(harveyben...@yahoo.com)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 4. Re: Gebrochts (Chaim G =
Steinmetz)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 5. Gebrochts (Chaim G Steinmetz)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 6. Re: Bris milah or Bircas Hachama =
which comes first?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> =
(kennethgmil...@juno.com)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 7. birchat hailanot (Eli Turkel)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 8. Re: birchat hailanot (Zev =
Sero)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 9. Re: birchat hailanot (Eli =
Turkel)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 10. Rain as a siman Klalah? (Harvey =
Benton)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 11. hachnasat sefer Torah during the Omer =
(Shayna Korb)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 12. Re: running a seder (Michael =
Kopinsky)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 13. Re: returning merchandise (Liron =
Kopinsky)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 14. Re: Rain as a siman Klalah? (Liron =
Kopinsky)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 15. Re: birchat hachama (Micha Berger)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 16. Re: running a seder (Micha Berger)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 17. Re: flat earth (Micha Berger)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 18. Re: driving/taxi on chol hamoed (Shoshana =
L. Boublil)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 19. Re: Gebrochts (David Riceman)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 20. Fw: Returning Merchandise (Joseph C. =
Kaplan)</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 1</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:47:28 +0000</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] returning merchandise</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: "A High-Level Torah Discussion Group" =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><62286822-1239054610-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net=
-18447313...@bxe1155.bisx.prod.on.blackberry></FONT>
<BR> =20
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't know the din..</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I would call the original camera provider.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Certainly they should eat any cost to return it</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If it's a cheap camera they might be mocheil.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If not they were victims of the USPS and should =
probably get their extra merchandise back</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>But that is just svara</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Zissen P</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>RRW</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:19:04 </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avodah<avo...@aishdas.org>; Elimelech =
Kornfeld<ekorn...@netvision.co.il></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] returning merchandise</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I bought a camera from a major distributor in the US. =
The camera didn't arrive.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>When I complained they sent a replacement. Several =
months later the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>original camera was delivered by the US post office =
(yeah USPostal service).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is there a chiyuv to return the second (actually the =
original) camera</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>kol tuv</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Eli Turkel</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>_______________________________________________</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Avodah mailing list</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Avo...@lists.aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://lis
ts.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org">http://=
lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:34:19 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Women at Funerals</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: "Joseph C. Kaplan" =
<jkap...@tenzerlunin.com>, A =
High-Level Torah</FONT>
<BR> <FONT SIZE=3D2>Discussion =
Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: Kenneth Miller =
<kennethgmil...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: <49DA674B.3050...@sero.name></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dwindows-1252; =
format=3Dflowed</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Joseph C. Kaplan wrote:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I understand that and I also like to think that, =
when instituted, the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> minhagim were beneficial to the people at that =
time. But if the way we </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> deal with emotional experiences is different =
today, and if we are </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> dealing with minhag and not halacha, might it =
therefore not be more </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> sensitive, and thus more beneficial to the =
mourners, to have a more </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> flexible approach in this area? And, I =
note, that in asking for </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> flexibility, I am not seeking to abrogate the =
minhag. But if a chevrah </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> or rabbi sees that the mourner is being =
adversely affected by the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> minhag, might that not be a time to err on the =
side of flexibility and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> sensitivity?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Not if it's a sakanah. You don't compromise on =
safety rules just to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>make someone feel good.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Zev =
Sero &nb=
sp; The trouble =
with socialism is that you</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>z...@sero.name &nb=
sp; eventually run out of =
other people?s money</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; - Margaret Thatcher</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 3</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:43:41 -0700 (PDT)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: harveyben...@yahoo.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] returning merchandise</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>, =
ekorn...@netvision.co.il,</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>elitur...@gmail.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<200601.58361...@web51703.mail.re2.yahoo.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3D"us-ascii"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>R. Turkel wrote: </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I bought a camera from a major distributor in the US. =
The camera didn't arrive.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>When I complained they sent a replacement. Several =
months later the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>original camera was delivered by the US post office =
(yeah USPostal service).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is there a chiyuv to return the second (actually the =
original) camera.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>HB: 1. Wouldn't this fall under the category of =
hashave es aveida? 2. Do corporations and or Eino Yehudim fall under the =
obligation of Hashave et Aveida??HB</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-------------- next part --------------</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 4</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:03:16 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Chaim G Steinmetz =
<cgsteinm...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090406.210316.17068.4.cgsteinm...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> A quick correction:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I had written "The reasoning attributed below to =
the Baal Hatanya in his</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>tshuva (not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>his Shulchan Aruch like has been mistakenly =
attributed) is not based on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the thickness of the matzos, but on the quickness of =
the kneading</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>process, which was a recent developement, ayin =
shom."</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I MEANT to write "The reason of the baal Hatanya =
in his tshuva ... is not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>based on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the thickness of the matzos (as attributed below), =
but rather on the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>quickness of the kneading</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>process, which was a recent developement, ayin =
shom."</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sorry for any confusion.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>CGS</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>____________________________________________________________</FO=
NT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Click here to find the perfect picture with our =
powerful photo search features.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTEuJCCU9inn3VuN=
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/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTEuJCCU9inn3VuNQfvuNLjgkDhrpl8btv31AdJyY84MfbW3eKSGw4/<=
/A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 5</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 22:08:14 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Chaim G Steinmetz =
<cgsteinm...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] Gebrochts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090406.220814.17068.5.cgsteinm...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> menucha <m...@inter.net.il wrote</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> a truly idiotic svara for gebrochts is brought- =
and refuted- in the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Shaarei Teshuva OC460, a woman who saw her =
neighbor making matza </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> meal pancakes (sufganin) and thought that =
it was ok to make regular</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>flour </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> pancakes on pesach.and did so....</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> menucha</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>---------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is it more "idiotic" than what was posted =
today by someone on Areivim</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>that "If one is looking for chumrot I have a =
better idea. I just read</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>that RSZA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>didnt use potato flour because it is too similar to =
wheat flour. "?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In fact, such a chumrah is already brought from the =
Rishonim as a chumrah</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of "Balei Nefesh" (the Raavyoh), for the =
identical reason.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>CGS</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>____________________________________________________________</FO=
NT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Enhance the beauty of your landscaping with a =
stunning fountain! Click here!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTNwLizNx3Xykdee=
aQ5SZSBOCADRWmzgiG8p8RVAOiyoOMjC7EFB64/">http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com=
/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTNwLizNx3XykdeeaQ5SZSBOCADRWmzgiG8p8RVAOiyoOMjC7EFB64/<=
/A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 6</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:53:34 GMT</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" =
<kennethgmil...@juno.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Bris milah or Bircas Hachama =
which comes first?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090407.065334.1376...@webmail10.vgs.untd.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>R"n Toby Katz suggested:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Thus, perhaps the reasoning is that the =
obligation of birkas</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> hachama actually arrived earlier than the =
obligation to do</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the bris, and therefore takes precedence.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I doubt it. Birkas hachama can't possibly be before =
sunrise, yet I'm pretty sure that bris begins (at least b'dieved) at =
alos hashachar.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>But I was thinking of similar logic: The zman for =
Birkas Hachama ENDS before that of the bris. And considering the =
possibility of clouds, the practicality of it may make it even more =
urgent.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Akiva Miller</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>____________________________________________________________</FO=
NT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Find the right teaching school to meet your =
educational needs. Click to learn more. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsKRHrVrlKpHf1bW=
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/A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 7</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:46:51 +0300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] birchat hailanot</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: avodah <avo...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: SBA <s...@sba2.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><471ff3f40904062246s12156575vefa541bf6347e...@mail.gmail.com&=
gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>????? ?????? (???"? ??"? ???????? ???????? =
???? ??) ???,??? ???? ????</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>??????? ???? ????, ???? ???? ???? ????, ??? ???? =
????? ???? ??? ?????</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>????. ??? ??? ?????"? (??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? =
????????) ???????? ??</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>???? ??? ???? (?? ??.) ??? ?????: ????? ???? ??? =
????, ??? ?? ????</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>????? ??? ?? ???????, ?? ???. ??? ???? ??? ?????? =
????, ?????? ????</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>???? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? =
???????, ???? ??? ???</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>????? ????? ???? ????, ??? ?????? ?????, ????? ???? =
??? ??? ?????</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>????.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hoping the Hebrew comes out from the ROY =
halachot.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>In summary Sefer HaEshkol says that saying birchat =
HaIlanoy in Nissan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>is just an example as does Ritva (RH 11a). Hence, =
many poskim say to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>say the beracha in each place according to the local =
blossoming of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>trees that there is nothing special about =
Nissan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>except that is when trees usually blossom in =
EY</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Eli Turkel</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 8</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:53:07 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] birchat hailanot</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: avodah <avo...@aishdas.org>, SBA =
<s...@sba2.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: <49DAEA43.4070...@sero.name></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; =
format=3Dflowed</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Eli Turkel wrote:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> In summary Sefer HaEshkol says that saying =
birchat HaIlanoy in Nissan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> is just an example as does Ritva (RH 11a). =
Hence, many poskim say to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> say the beracha in each place according to the =
local blossoming of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> trees that there is nothing special about =
Nissan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> except that is when trees usually blossom in =
EY</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Nu, and other poskim say that "yemei Nisan" =
is davka. And since safek</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>brachot lehakel, the normal rule is that their view =
prevails. At any</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>rate I have never heard of anyone in Australia saying =
the bracha.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Zev =
Sero &nb=
sp; The trouble =
with socialism is that you</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>z...@sero.name &nb=
sp; eventually run out of =
other people?s money</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; - Margaret Thatcher</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 9</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:01:52 +0300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] birchat hailanot</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: avodah <avo...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><471ff3f40904062301v789b5020l47528491a3f62...@mail.gmail.com&=
gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> In summary Sefer HaEshkol says that saying =
birchat HaIlanoy in Nissan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> is just an example as does Ritva (RH 11a). =
Hence, many poskim say to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> say the beracha in each place according to =
the local blossoming of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> trees that there is nothing special about =
Nissan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> except that is when trees usually blossom in =
EY</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Nu, and other poskim say that "yemei =
Nisan" is davka. ?And since safek</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> brachot lehakel, the normal rule is that their =
view prevails. ? At any</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> rate I have never heard of anyone in Australia =
saying the bracha.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I dont know who the other poskim are. In any case ROY =
paskens to say it any</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>month and doesnt use the rule of safek berachot =
lehakel.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Eli Turkel</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 10</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:43:35 -0700 (PDT)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Harvey Benton =
<harveyben...@yahoo.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] Rain as a siman Klalah?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: "a...@asktheRabbi.org" =
<a...@asktheRabbi.org>,</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>"harveyben...@yahoo.com" =
<harveyben...@yahoo.com>,</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>"avo...@lists.aishdas.org" =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<308210.68218...@web51711.mail.re2.yahoo.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Does anyone have any Mekoros as 2 rain being a =
possible Siman Klala on birchas Hachama as it says re rain in the =
sukka??</FONT></P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 11</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:09:26 -0700</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Shayna Korb =
<shayna.k...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] hachnasat sefer Torah during the =
Omer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><d809af730904061809n6b1ccb6bm82716eda547ad...@mail.gmail.com&=
gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hey all,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Can anyone provide me with sources regarding halachot =
of having a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>hachnasas sefer Torah during sefira?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I hope your Pesach cleaning is liberating in its own =
way.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Kol tuv,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Shayna Korb</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 12</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 04:41:16 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Michael Kopinsky =
<mkopin...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] running a seder</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><c1b3e2ee0904070141q558633e4p66d1aaffbd376...@mail.gmail.com&=
gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3D"iso-8859-1"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Eli Turkel =
<elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Heard an interesting shiur today. Rabbi (from =
Shilo) claimed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 1. There is no mitzva of simcha to eat the night =
of the seder only</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the next morning. So he eats only matzah maror =
etc. and a main</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> dish of soup</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> giving more time for maggid</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Forget about simcha - what about cheirus? Is this how =
a free man eats?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Matzah maror and soup?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>While the dilemma of trying to balance everything on =
the night of the seder</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>is indeed a difficult one, I don't see this as being =
a solution.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>KT,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Michael</FONT>
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</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 13</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:28:29 -0700</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Liron Kopinsky =
<liron.kopin...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] returning merchandise</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: harveyben...@yahoo.com, A =
High-Level Torah Discussion Group</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><c92fa0bb0904070828r45a4a06cw70cadee620c8c...@mail.gmail.com&=
gt;</FONT>
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</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>HB: 1. Wouldn't this fall under the category of =
hashave es aveida? 2. Do</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>corporations and or Eino Yehudim fall under the =
obligation of Hashave et</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Aveida??HB</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Liron:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Wouldn't you say that the fact that the corporation =
sent another camera</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>means that if there is a mitzva of Hashavat Aveida, =
that they had yiush?</FONT>
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</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 14</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:32:32 -0700</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Liron Kopinsky =
<liron.kopin...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rain as a siman Klalah?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID:</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2><c92fa0bb0904070832h5e2abdfcx23b601747fc1c...@mail.gmail.com&=
gt;</FONT>
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charset=3D"iso-8859-1"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Does anyone have any Mekoros as 2 rain being a =
possible Siman Klala on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> birchas Hachama as it says re rain in the =
sukka??</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Liron:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>It is my understanding that there are Rishonim who =
hold that you can say the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>bracha for Birchat Hachama without even seeing the =
sun. While we don't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>pasken like that today, it seems to me that there =
can't be a mesorah for it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>being a siman klalah if that psak could exist.</FONT>
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</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 15</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:15:24 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] birchat hachama</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090407171524.GA21...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>R' Eli Turkel replied to me:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> The "return to location" I agree, =
but I'm not sure how you know that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> they took it as an astronomical event. =
Again, looking at the beraisa,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> that "location" is defined by the =
rule of Shabetai, which is decidedly</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> NOT an astronomical event.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I dont think we are disagreeing. By an astromical =
event I mean the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> length of the (mean) solar year...</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We don't disagree on the above, it's on the next =
paragraph:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> My point was that early generations seem to have =
accepted that a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> return to location is happening even though they =
knew that Shmuel was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> not correct. In fact Rambam indicates that the =
shittah of Shmuel is not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> correct but still paskens the 28 years.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The Rambam:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>- didn't believe the sun was created on a Wed (he =
holds the 6 "days"</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> were causal stages, not points in time; Moreh =
2:30, c.f. Abarbanel</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> opening to Bereishis, 9th question)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>- held that creation was in Tishrei</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>- knew that compared to his own estimate for the =
tequfah (Qiddush</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> haChodesh 13:11) in his day they were marking =
a date that was 10 days</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> off (as RET writes)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>- didn't have much use for the hour of =
Shabetai</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>and yet, as RET notes, still stood by Abayei's once =
every 28 years. So</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>why would you think he took it astronomically? =
Because they don't make</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>a point of saying "this isn't =
astronomical"? I'm arguing that until</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the industrial age, or perhaps as far back a Galileo, =
no one would</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>have bothered. We can't judge from science, since the =
distinction was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>unimportant until the emergence of scientific method, =
the separation</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of science from natural philosophy and alchemy, and =
the huge success</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>science and technology have had in the past couple of =
centuries.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Given that there was no way the Rambam could possibly =
have related it to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>an astronomical event, how can you take his silence =
to mean he did?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>RZS quoted the same idea of mine and asked:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I take the gemara's calling that hour =
"Saturn" to be no more significant</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> than any contemporary reference to =
Saturday. The gemara is using it (in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> this instance) as no more than the name of that =
hour. It's what the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> hour was known as in the local culture.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Abayei's words are:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> kol 28 shanin vehadar =
machzor</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> venafelah tequfas Nisan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> beShabatai</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> be'urta detelas naghi arba</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The hour is commonly known in the gemara as sheqi'ah. =
So, I translated</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Abayei as:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> kol 28 shanin vehadar =
machzor</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> venafelah tequfas Nisan beShabatai =
-- the state of the sun</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> be'urta detelas naghi arba -- =
being the time</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>This is why I earlier referred to Shabatai as part of =
the location of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the sun, not a point in the week.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I can see RZS is reading it as:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> kol 28 shanin vehadar =
machzor</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> venafelah tequfas Nisan -- state =
of the sun</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> beShabatai be'urta detelas naghi =
arba -- the time</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>which is retrospect seems no less valid, although why =
then doesn't he</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>just say "sheqi'ah"?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The bottom line would remain that Abayei dragged in =
the astrology system</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>when the usual terminology is more straightforward. =
So in either case,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>added to the above about the Rambam, I really think =
it's hard to argue</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>that Abayei or the rishonim who were analyzing him =
were thinking about</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>what we who keep these categories more distinct would =
call astronomy.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Tir'u baTov!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-Micha</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Micha =
Berger &=
nbsp; It's nice to be smart,</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>mi...@aishdas.org but =
it's smarter to be nice.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.aishdas.org">http://www.aishdas.org<;/A>&n
bsp; &nb=
sp; &nbs=
p; - R' Lazer Brody</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax: (270) 514-1507</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 16</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:38:20 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] running a seder</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090407183820.GA10...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>RETurkel wrote in the name of a rabbi from =
Shilo:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 3. The main part of the seder is questions and =
answers for the children</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> and not the recitation of the hagadah. In fact =
arami oved avi is the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> centerpiece.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If the main part is the questions and answers, =
wouldn't the centerpiece</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>be Mah Nishtanah and the answers to that question? =
That gets us to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>machloqes Rav and Shemu'el as to whether the =
maschilim begenus umsaymim</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>beshevach is "avadim hayinu" (Shemu'el) or =
"bit-chilah ovedei AZ" (Rav).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>And according to Rabban Gamliel, the centerpiece =
would be a third piece</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of Maggid.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>But none of these members of Chazal place Vidui =
Bikurim as the ikkar</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>mitzvah.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Vidui bikurim is placed on a pedestal by a bit of =
Brisker Torah which</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>explains that vidui bikurim is used because onlike =
seifer shemos, it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>requires using both miqra and TSBP (Sifri) to tell =
the story. I forgot</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the significance of using the two together in =
particular. Perhaps a talmid</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of RYBS, RAS (you still around RHM?) or another =
Brisker can chime in.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'm attaching the seider of the seder, as seen IMHO. I =
think the only</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>controversial point is that it requires moving Ha =
Lachma Anya from the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>beginning of Magid to being the explanation of =
Yachatz. That allows (1)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>a grouping of the 15 steps of the seder based on when =
we refill the kosos,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and (2) opening Maggid with questions, not a =
declaration.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Tir'u baTov!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-Micha</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Most of us have many divrei Torah on various points in =
the seder, but</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>since the very name of the meal, "seder", =
points us to pay attention</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to its order, I thought I would layout the overall =
structure, as I see</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>it. We can divide the seder into four parts if we pay =
attention to when</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>we fill and drink each cup of wine.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I - First Cup (primarily reenacting the initial =
servitude)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 1 - Kadeish</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 2 - Urchatz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 3 - Karpas</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 4 - Yachatz</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This proposed structure places Ha Lachma Anya as part =
of Yachatz. We</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>break the matzah, and discuss the "bread of =
suffering". The cup is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>refilled after it, before Mah Nishtanah.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>II Second Cup (retelling the story of =
redemption)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 5 - Maggid</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> There are three opinions amongst =
tana'im about what is required for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Maggid. Rav and Shemu'el both say =
that Maggid should begin with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> describing the suffering, and end =
on a happier note. The difference</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> between them is that Rav says that =
this is on a spiritual level,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> starting with Bitechilah ovdei =
avodah zarah - in the beginning, our</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> ancestors were idolators. Shemu'el =
says it on a physical level.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Avadaim hayinu - we were =
slaves, but now we are free. Rabban Gamliel</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> doesn't operate within that model =
at all. Instead, he requires that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Maggid must discuss the three =
mitzvos of the evening: Pesach, Matzah,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> and Marror. We include all three =
haggados in our seder.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> a - Introduction</FONT>
<BR> <FONT SIZE=3D2>This =
includes Mah Nishtanah, and Avadim Hayinu (Shemu'el's</FONT>
<BR> <FONT SIZE=3D2>haggadah). =
The introduction ends by noting that this mitzvah is</FONT>
<BR> <FONT SIZE=3D2>retelling =
the story of the Exodus, beyond the usual requirement</FONT>
<BR> <FONT SIZE=3D2>to =
remember it "kol yimei chayecha - all the days of your =
life".</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> Rav Chaim Brisker asks how the =
mitzvah of retelling the story at the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> seder differs from the daily =
requirement to it. The next three sections</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> provide elements that he considers =
unique to the mitzvah of the night.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> b - The obligation to tell the =
story to others in Q&A format: This</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> includes the four sons through =
Yachol meiRosh Chodesh.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> c - The chain of events: Rav's =
haggadah - the spiritual redemption</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> from "Bitechilah", =
through the plagues, crossing the Red See, and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> the miracles in the desert.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> d - Reasons for the mitzvos of the =
night: R' Gamli'el's haggadah</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2> Then, after fulfilling the specific =
retelling of the evening as per Rav</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Chaim, we conclude with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> e - Expressions of praise - =
the first part of Hallel</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>III Third cup (we just retold the story verbally, here =
we reenact it)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 6 - Rachtzah</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 7 - Motzi</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 8 - Matzah</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 9 - Maror</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 10 - Koreich</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 11 - Shulchan Oreich</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 12 - Tzafun</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 13 - Bareich</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>IV Fourth cup (now that we were redeemed, we are in a =
position to praise</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> Hashem)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 14 - Hallel</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> 15 - Nirtzah</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>There were 15 semicircular steps up to the last =
courtyard before the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Temple. The levi'im would stand on them and sing. =
When ascending them</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>for certain ceremonies, they would pause at each step =
and sing the 15</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>chapters of Tehillim that begin Shir haMaalos (a song =
of ascents) or Shir</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>laMa'alos. 15 then is a number by which we sing G-d's =
praises, and speak</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of his loftiness. For this reason there are 15 things =
that Hashem did for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>us in the Exodus which we count out in Dayeinu - any =
one alone would</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>justify the seder night. And there are therefore 15 =
steps in the seder.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 17</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:52:57 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] flat earth</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<20090407185257.GA27...@aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'm not picking on RET< really I'm not. But here's =
a reply to another of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>his posts. I guess we just tend to share common =
interests:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> It's not all revisionism, though. It is =
pretty clear that at least some</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> of Hazal did know that the earth was a =
globe:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>> <A =
HREF=3D"http://fkmaniac.blogspot.com/2009/03/chazal-earth-is-made-like-ba=
ll.html">http://fkmaniac.blogspot.com/2009/03/chazal-earth-is-made-like-b=
all.html</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Yes some but not all chazal. I have a book that =
claims that in general</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the scientific knowledge of Rav Yochanan was =
greater than Shmuel in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> spite of Shmuel's statement. Hence, it would not =
be surprising that it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> is the Yerushalmi that got it right.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It's not surprising because Aristotle got it right. =
The Romans were back</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and forth on it, but the idea was "out =
there" back in Anshei Kenesses</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>haGedolah's days.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The Romans were less sure. Way back I argued that the =
opinions we find</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>in Chazal simply evolve over time roughly in parallel =
with the debates</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of the non-Jewish scientists of their period. =
Generally tending toward</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the conservative side. I can't find that post in the =
archives, so I'm</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>just going to copy-n-paste the less complete version =
I sent scjm in 2001.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In the days of Alexander (Tamid 31b), we believed that =
the world was flat.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>That rules out the Ptolmeic universe. R' Eliezer and =
R' Yehushua (1st</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>cent CE) both describe the flood (R"H 11b) as =
falling through the heaven</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>onto the earth. This is the same era in which we have =
the opinion that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the sun goes behind the sky at night (Pisachim 94b), =
and that the world</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>floats on the tehom, or is held above it by pillars =
(Chagigah 12b). The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>sky is a lid that touches, or almost touches, the =
earth at its edges</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>(Chagiga 15a). All in all, a flat earth, no =
orbits.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>R Yehudah haNasi (Pisachim 94b; 2nd cent CE) =
championed the Jewish sages</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>over the non-Jewish sages that the "galgal" =
(R' Avraham b' HaRambam, the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Aruch: the sphere) is fixed, and the =
"mazalos" (R' Avraham b' HaRambam:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>contellations) move. His proof: We never see the =
Wagon (the Big Dipper)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>in the south or Scorpio in the north. So, by the end =
of the tannaim,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>we certainly believed that the stars were embedded in =
a solid sphere.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ptolmey published the same idea in Almagest, mid-2nd =
cent CE, a couple</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of decades before.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>R' Chiya, although a talmid of Rebbe's, didn't =
understand that when the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>non-Jews said the sun went under the earth, it was in =
an orbit. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>b'raisa supports that idea because "pools are =
warm at night". So, he</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>thought that the sun were closer to the pools when it =
was under the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>earth, and not that it was going in a full circle =
staying a constant</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>(or near constant) distance. But at this time, =
Ptolmy's Almagest hadn't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>become universally accepted by the non-Jewish world =
yet either.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>And, of course, we know how Rishonim consistantly =
understood the sun</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>standing still for Yehoshua. Ptolmeic. Once again, =
like the conservative</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>side of scientific thought of their =
contemporaries.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Tir'u baTov!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-Micha</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Micha =
Berger &=
nbsp; Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>mi...@aishdas.org =
your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.aishdas.org">http://www.aishdas.org<;/A>&n
bsp; =
and it flies away.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax: (270) =
514-1507  =
; =
- Rav Yisrael Salanter</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 18</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:13:02 +0300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" =
<toram...@bezeqint.net></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] driving/taxi on chol =
hamoed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>, =
<elitur...@gmail.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<2A850DD9401B46D4B4FA49F5A3DD737E@VIDEO></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed; =
charset=3D"ISO-8859-1";</FONT>
<BR> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>reply-type=3Doriginal</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 09:46:03 +0300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> From: Eli Turkel =
<elitur...@gmail.com></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I have a cousin who is restrained to a wheel =
chair and is very immobile.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> His son-in-law in Yerushalayim refuses to take a =
taxi to Netanya on chol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> hamoed unless they find a "poor" taxi =
driver.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Does anyone know about teshuvot on using taxis =
(Jewish) on chol hamoed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> including bikur cholim and kibud av =
mitzvot</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> -- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Eli Turkel</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This is one case where the question provides the =
answer - there is no such </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>thing as a rich taxi driver.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Especially in Israel.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>As to poor taxi drivers - just ask any taxi company =
rep. about how many taxi </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>drivers take on more than one shift a day to make =
ends meet.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Actually, you can get in a cab and ask the driver =
about his finances...</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>So the issue isn't finding a poor taxi driver. He can =
do that by calling any </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>taxi stand and asking for a Jewish driver.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Shoshana L. Boublil</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 19</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 13:23:51 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gebrochts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group =
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: <49DB8C27.3070...@att.net></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; =
format=3Dflowed</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Chaim G Steinmetz wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I just read</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> that RSZA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> didnt use potato flour because it is too similar =
to wheat flour. "?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> In fact, such a chumrah is already brought from =
the Rishonim as a chumrah</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> of "Balei Nefesh" (the Raavyoh), for =
the identical =
reason.___________________________________________________________</FONT>=
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>The Raavyah (d. 1225) predated the introduction of =
potatoes to the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Eastern hemisphere (16th century).</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>David Riceman</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message: 20</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:58:25 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: "Joseph C. Kaplan" =
<jkap...@tenzerlunin.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [Avodah] Fw: Returning Merchandise</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: <avo...@lists.aishdas.org></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Message-ID: =
<EB4E755A703A47BBA9CE84A34F72C0E1@JKAPLAN></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Content-Type: text/plain; =
charset=3D"windows-1252"</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sorry; I accidently sent this to Areivim instead of =
Avodah.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Joseph</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Joseph C. Kaplan </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Eli Turkel </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: Areivim </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:56 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Returning Merchandise</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>RET asks:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>"I bought a camera from a major distributor in =
the US. The camera didn't arrive.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>When I complained they sent a replacement. Several =
months later the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>original camera was delivered by the US post office =
(yeah USPostal service).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is there a chiyuv to return the second (actually the =
original) camera."</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't know the answer but let me tell a true =
story. The principal of a MO high school was interviewing =
rebbeim. One of the questions in the interview was what would the =
rebbe do if a student asked the following question: I went to a =
store and the salesgirl, who was not Jewish (and the store is owned by =
non-Jews as well) gave me significantly too much change. What =
should I do?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>A number of the rebbeim being interviewed took this as =
an opportunity to show their Torah knowledge and discussed with great =
erudition gezel akum. The one who got the job, however =
answered: send the money back to the store owner with a cover =
letter explaining what happened and say that you are a high school =
student in a Jewish school and you were taught that returning the =
overpayment is the right and moral thing to do.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Joseph Kaplan</FONT>
</P>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>End of Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 63</FONT>
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