Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 242

Fri, 04 Jul 2008

• 1. the cohen gadol and marriage to a pubescent girl (Minden)
• 2. Re: T'uM (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Zekhiras Yetzi'as Mitzrayim in Yemos haMashiach (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Love of the Imahos (T613K@aol.com)
• 5. Re: Halachic Texts: More Background (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 6. standing for a Rebbe in a virtual class (Saul Guberman)
• 7. Re: the cohen gadol and marriage to a pubescent girl (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 8. Re: Did Tziporah say Lashon Hara? (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 9. K.P. vs P.A. (Cantor Wolberg)
• 10. Re: the cohen gadol and marriage to a pubescent girl (T613K@aol.com)
• 11. Re: V'ahavta l'rayecha kamocha (T613K@aol.com)
• 12. Re: the cohen gadol and marriage to a pubescent girl (T613K@aol.com)

RZS wrote:
> It's quite clear that through most of history, including Roman and
> Medieval times, it was about 12-13, both for Jews and others.  It's
> very unlikely that it was ever as high as 17 for any large population,
> over any long time frame; that figure was probably taken from an
> atypical sample.

Well possible; I'm afraid my knowledge is from secondary sources like Wikipedia only.

Lipman Phillip Minden

-- 
http://lipmans.blogspot.com

Rich, Joel wrote:
> Question: If halacha is the "ratzon hashem" is there an "inyan" of
> agreeing to use  torah law rather than secular law for such issues?

I'm not sure your premise is correct. But if it is, then there might
be such an "inyan", but it would have to be explicitly agreed between
the parties.   Even if there were no such "inyan", if the parties to
a transaction agree to use ChM rather than Minhag Hatagarim for some
specific transaction, then that will be binding.  But here there was
no such agreement.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 12:53:52PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : >Are you sure that "*nobody*" disputes it?
> 
> : The mishna presents it as an undisputed statement; if you think there's
> : some machlokes about it, it's up to you to name the person who disputes
> : it.
> 
> The mishnah doesn't discuss it.

Um, yes, it does.  It says, explicitly, "Mazkirin yetziat mitzrayim
baleylot".  And nobody says otherwise.  Therefore the fact that we
say it doesn't show that we hold like Ben Zoma, and therefore the
normal rules would indicate that in fact we hold like the Chachamim,
that we will say y"m biymot hamashiach.

 
> And as already noted by RDECohen, both sides of the machloqes
> presume that it's perfectly possible that ZYM wouldn't continue after
> mashiach. Otherwise, why would the Chakhamim waste a derashah to exclude
> a non-possibility which is kefirah?

Because there's an explicit pasuk that would seem to suggest otherwise?


> The gemara presents the beraisa as a continuation of the previous sugya,
> yes.

Which beraisa?


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

 
 
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>
>>I never really  thought about this before, but if it is our understanding
that each man only  had one "zivug rishon",  polygamy implies some women
will end up in this  Leah role; "destined" to be second fiddle?  And when
the gemara says  that before birth the bat kol says bat ploni lploni,
does that include those  who are destined not to be a "true zivug"?<<

KT
Joel  Rich




>>>>
I don't know if there's any source that discusses this  but I have always 
assumed that when the bas kol says "Bas Ploni lePloni" that  each Ploni gets only 
one designated Bas Ploni.  As for the possibility  of a woman ending up with 
a husband who is someone other than her  designated Ploni -- we know that that 
is possible from the very fact that Leah  was designated for Esav but ended 
up with Yakov.   
 
Each of the Avos had one "main" wife or real wife.  For Avraham it was  
obviously Sarah.  For Yakov, it was Rochel.  Dovid Hamelech had many  wives but it 
seems that his "true" designated zivug was Batsheva -- who was  already 
married to someone else when Dovid met her, so it seems she initially  married a man 
who was not her "true" zivug.
 
Luckily for us (or not) we can't hear the bas kol so we just have to muddle  
through, making the best choices we can with the information we have.  I  read 
recently that each person marries the best-looking and smartest person who  
will marry him[her], and thus most marriages end up being between two people of 
 roughly equal looks and intelligence.  The same article (in Time) also said  
that most people make their choice within the available pool at the time, and 
 don't spent their whole  life looking to see if there's someone else  around 
the bend who is just a little bit better looking and just a little bit  
smarter (and will still accept them), because if they did do that, they either  
would never get married at all or their marriages would be highly unstable and  
impermanent. 


--Toby Katz
=============

President Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead  with the 
deployment of Cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly ?  after 
getting himself a bigger stick.  --Mark Steyn




**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for 
fuel-efficient used cars.      (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
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R' Micha Berger wrote:
> The Gra doesn't ignore prominent poseqim. He ignores the
> kehillah's precedent as to which prominent poseiq to
> follow. It's an anti-mimetic thing, and probably a product
> of the collapse of the ghetto's culture during his times.

R' Joel Rich asked:
> Interesting assertion - has anyone written on this?

For the benefit of new subscribers, I would like to suggest that anyone
unfamiliar with the word "mimetic" should go out of their way to read
"Rupture And Reconstruction: The Transformation Of Contemporary Orthodoxy"
by R' Haym Soloveitchik, originally published in Tradition, Vol. 28, No. 4
(Summer 1994), and now available online at http://www.lookstein.or
g/links/orthodoxy.htm

I find it to be an excellent history of the transformation of halachic
Judaism from being based on what we learned from out ancestors, to one
based on what we learn from printed texts. The word "ghetto" appears in
that article exactly once, and I think it might be debatable whether or not
he supports RMB's post. Tze ul'mad.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Click for the best auto accessories at great prices.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc
/Ioyw6i3neQakhtAkFPPjpqX0YhucISDYjx79hDEfSn1blKz4B2ituC/

R. Chaim Brovender 6 minutes on You tube.
http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2008/07/standing-up-for-your-virtual-
rebbe.html

On all the interactive shuirim that I have attended the Rebbe was already
there when I logged on.  If there is no camera at my end does it matter?
Rabbi Brovender has a story about that.
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On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 07:03:16 EDT
T613K@aol.com wrote:

...

> What about the rest of us?  Are we obligated to adjust our mental  furniture 
> so that marriage between a child and a middle-aged man no longer seems  
> distasteful?  I don't know.  It really is a good question.  I  must admit that I 
> have never found the picture of three-year-old Rivkah marrying  40-year-old 
> Yitzchak to be exactly romantically satisfying, either.  Even  allowing for the 
> fact that the marriage was not consummated until she matured,  it's not so 

It is certainly not a fact; Rashi (Breishis 25:20, apparently citing
Pirke D'R. Eliezer) implies that he consummated the marriage
immediately, and see Mizrahi and Sifsei Hachamim there, where the point
is virtually explicit.

> appealing.  When I found out that the Rashbam says Rivkah was  14, not 3, when she 
> got married -- I did feel better.

It is not surprising that Rashbam explains the chronology differently
from the Aggadic version, but note that Tosfos (Yevamos 64a s.v.
V'Leilef) suggest in one interpretation that the Bavli itself contains
an opinion that Rivkah was older than three.

> --Toby Katz

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 23:31:08 -0400
"Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[The context is the Rambam's rules about suitability for prophecy.

> But Hashem STILL is not bound by any such rules.[Even though people like to
> play those games] I know numerous people in my life who  have claimed Divine
> commands to do things.  One told me he moved and took his current job on 2
> separate Divinie "commands" and that he was assured of a third.

I have argued that Rambam strongly implies that God *cannot*
confer prophecy on the unsuitable individual.

See my "On Divine Omnipotence and its Limitations", Hakirah Volume 2,
available from: http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%202%20Grossman.pdf  See page
160 (page 10 in the PDF) and on.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

R' Micha wrote:
Similarly, tum'ah may be only defined in relation to a baseline. If the
whole tzibur is tamei, it's like sea level shifted.

I don't see the analogy because tum'ah is caused by contact with
the dead. So the fact that it is disregarded because of the tzibbur,
doesn't change its complexion.

The examples you give have to do with relative things. Tumah is tumah
and can be overlooked for the greater good, but I don't see how that is
the same as voltage, mountain height or polar ice caps.

Tell me what I'm missing.

K.T.
ri
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From: Ben Waxman _ben1456@zahav.net.il_ (mailto:ben1456@zahav.net.il) 

>>Maybe  a woman isn't married against her will but a girl can be. Her father 
can  marry her off (doreitta) or her brother and/or mother (d'rabbanan). In 
the  latter case she can get out of it without a get, but married she most  
certainly is. And this was done in Jewish communities all around the  world.<<

>>>>>
I had forgotten this.  It's  strange that the halacha that a woman's consent 
must be obtained before marriage  is derived from Rivka -- "Nish'al es pi 
hana'arah" -- and she was only three  years old at the time!  (at least according 
to  Rashi)




--Toby Katz
=============


President  Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead with the 
deployment of Cruise  and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly ? after 
getting himself a  bigger stick.  --Mark Steyn




**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for 
fuel-efficient used cars.      (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
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From: Cantor Wolberg _cantorwolberg@cox.net_ (mailto:cantorwolberg@cox.net) 

>>IMHO to label something someone says as kefirah is  disrespectful at  
best and is a violation of v'ahavta l'rayecha  komocho.<<




>>>>>
Yes, but there is no mitzva of "vehavta lerei'acha  kamocha" towards a kofer. 
 
 
It's a Catch-22, isn't it?  Don't call him a kofer if he's rei'echa  but 
don't consider him rei'echa if he's a kofer!  
 
Or maybe someone is not a kofer in general but one of his opinions is  
kefirah -- you still have the same situation, namely, if it's kefirah, then  vehavta 
lerei'acha doesn't apply to his kefirah.


--Toby Katz
=============

President Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead  with the 
deployment of Cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly ?  after 
getting himself a bigger stick.  --Mark Steyn




**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for 
fuel-efficient used cars.      (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
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From: Minden <phminden@arcor.de>
>>Menarche, which dropped  from about 17 years to less than 12 during the 
last 150 years. (  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty#Historical_shift ) It's 
difficult to  extrapolate to the time of the gemore, though - it depends on a 
list of factors  such as ethnic genetics, nutrition and the like.<<
 

Lipman Phillip Minden

>>>>>
AFAIK the  average age of menarche has always been about age 12.   It is 
delayed  in those places and times where malnutrition is widespread.  The 
wikipedia  article doesn't really tell you much because it mentions only a few 
countries  and starts counting from 1840, beginning of Industrial Revolution, when 
poverty  and malnutrition initially worsened. 





--Toby Katz
=============

President  Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead with the 
deployment of Cruise  and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly ? after 
getting himself a  bigger stick.  --Mark Steyn




**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for 
fuel-efficient used cars.      (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
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