Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 196

Mon, 26 May 2008

• 1. Re: irrational anti-Semites? Redux (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Re: Kashrut of treif venue's coffee (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Re: omer - Rihal (Michael Makovi)
• 4. Rosh Hashanah 32b There's Hope For Everyone (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Re: Dancing on Shabbos - Redux (T613K@aol.com)
• 6. Re: ta'am of eating matza (saul mashbaum)
• 7. Re: Dancing on Shabbos - Redux (Michael Makovi)
• 8. There Are Four Sons Within Each of Us... (Cantor Wolberg)
• 9. Re: Dancing on Shabbos - Redux (Richard Wolpoe)
• 10. Re: ta'am of eating matza (Richard Wolpoe)

On Tue, Jan 1, 2008 at 11:15 AM, <T613K@aol.com> wrote:

>  From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il>
> >>.....both the Jews and the Hyksos
> were alien forces whose increasing numbers and influence were a threat
> from within the Egyptian society. At the same time there were Hyksos and
> their allies who lived outside of Egypt. Therefore there was a second
> danger if they would overcome the control the Egyptians had over them
> and escape to join the outside enemy. Thus there is nothing irrational
> about the fear. There was an internal threat in numbers and an external
> threat which their escape would exacerbate. There is also no need for
> psycho-historical analysis.<<
>
>  >>>>>
> very good answer, makes sense
>
> although it seems to me that what you have written /is/ "psycho-historical
> analysis"!
>
> **
> *--Toby Katz
> =============*
>

Is this Hyksos model TIDE - iow that R. Hirsch would have accepted - or TuM
or ...?
-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Richard Wolpoe <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
wrote:

> All kidding aside
> She'eilah:
> I on the highway and I need to use the facilities, may I enter McDonald'
> and use their men's room or is this mar'is ayyin
>
> similarly:
> I am on the strets of NYC and I and I need to use the facilities, may I
> enter a bar and use their men's room or is this mar'is ayyin? may I order a
> coca-cola in order to be ocnisdered a ptraon of this bar?
>
> KT
> RRW
>
>
> On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Michael Makovi <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> >From Areivim of the same title
>>
>>
>> Transcript of a talk given by my rabbi at Machon Meir, and apparently,
>> at Nishmat too:
>> http://www.nish
>> mat.net/article.php?id=4&;amp;heading=0<http://www.nish
>> mat.net/article.php?id=4&;heading=0>
>>
> --
> Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
> RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
> see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/




-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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>> It may be old news to many but I just learned about the opinion of
>> R.Yehuda Halevi on the date pf shavuot.
>> He holds that from the Torah there is no fixed date for bringing the
>> Omer it depends on the harvest season. Shavuot starts on the 50th
>> day afterwards (ie count 49 days).
>> It was onlt chazal that set it to be brought on the 16th of Nissan and
>> so Shavuot is on the 5/6/7 of Sivan and with the calendar on the 6th.
>>
>> This answers many questions
>> ...
>> R Eli Turkel

> The Kuzari says one other thing: Since the Torah set no exact date,
> and it was only Chazal who hard-set it to count from the second day of
> Pesach, the Kuzari says that the drash by the Tzadukim really has
> nothing inherently wrong with it; in theory, the Tzadukim were as
> correct as Chazal, and there was nothing wrong with the former. The
> only thing the Tzadukim did wrong was go against a decision that had
> already been codified by Chazal.
>
> Even if the Kuzari's theory that the Omer has no d'oraita-date, is
> incorrect, we can still drink to the hava amina:
> ...
>
> Mikha'el Makovi

This is all in Kuzari 3:41.

I'll note that R' Turkel's inferences, as well as mine, are nowhere in
the Kuzari. All the Kuzari says is that the Torah left the date of the
Omer to the discretion of the sages, and R' Turkel derived what he did
about relationship between Pesach and Shavuot, and I derived what I
did about drashot of Tzadukim. But neither of our inferences are found
in the Kuzari itself, so don't look too hard.

Mikha'el Makovi

The umpires have the authority to call it and thier p'sak STANDS. it
does NOT mean they are infallible...

So, I have an interesting questioning regarding the above mashul.
With modern technology being what it is (as well as what it  
potentially can be),
if there was invented a type of machine that could infallibly call a  
ball or a strike
and obviate the need for an umpire, would anyone be against that?

I anticipate the argument against doing away with human intervention,  
but isn't the ultimate goal                                                                                                             
for "truth." This machine would not be like a baas kol;  it would be  
to baseball what forensic science
has been to uncovering crimes that could never be solved prior to  
modern miraculous technology.

Would anyone be against a GPS because triple A doesn't have to be  
contacted to make a travel map?

K.T.
ri
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From: "Richard Wolpoe" _rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com_ 
(mailto:rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com) 


>>Both from the wording of the Rema and from RMF in the  aforementioned IM
[which no one has seemed to consult --smile--] It LOOKS  like the heter here
is in the realm of: "Well frum people do it so it MSUT be  ok."  To me that
is a flimsy post facto rationale that has a very  slippery slope and is
easily exploited.<<




>>>>>
I know nothing about the halachic literature on  this subject (except what 
I've read on Avodah) but maybe someone can tell me if  this makes sense:  maybe 
there's a heter to dance on Shabbos precisely  because you are dancing with 
other people, but not to dance by yourself (if  you'd even want to). I'm 
thinking of the halacha -- please correct me if I've  gotten this wrong -- that you 
can't read by candlelight if you're by yourself,  because you might adjust the 
wick, but you can read by candlelight if other  people are around, because 
they'll stop if you start to move the candle.  
 
So maybe if you're dancing with other people, there's no danger that  you'll 
use musical instruments? (And BTW isn't the issur of using musical  
instruments based on the fear that you'll tune or fix the instruments?  So  not dancing 
puts that issur at two removes -- you /might/ use an instrument and  then you 
/might/ tune it.  If you're with other people, there are three  removes:  you 
might tune an instrument only because you might pick it up  only because all 
the other people in the room might not notice you picking  up the guitar in 
time to stop you.)
 




--Toby  Katz
=============





**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with 
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&;?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
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I wrote
>The lechem hapanim was baked in a mold, and could be bent/folded.
RRWolpoe responded: 
>> The Lechem Hapanim seems to have been quite firm and not soft or pliable at all. 
See MT T'midim v'Musafim 5:9, based on Menachot 56 . The Lechem Hapanim
were baked 10 t'fachim long, and thus  extended two t'fachim on each side
beyond the 6 t'fachim wide shulchan. Theye folded (kofel) up to fit on the
shulchan. 
Saul Mashbaum
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> I know nothing about the halachic literature on this subject (except what
> I've read on Avodah)
>
> R' Toby Katz

Ditto for me. But I'll respond with AFAIK anyway:

> maybe there's a heter to dance on Shabbos precisely because you are dancing
> with other people, but not to dance by yourself
>
> So maybe if you're dancing with other people, there's no danger that you'll use musical
> instruments?
>
> R' TK

But I think that people would dance in such a festive spirit so as to
make musical instruments a concern, davka as a group. An individual by
himself wasn't considered likely to start playing festive music.

> (And BTW isn't the issur of using musical
> instruments based on the fear that you'll tune or fix the instruments?
>
> R' TK

My understanding is that the concern is you'll build a new musical
instrument from scratch l'gamre, on the spot, as people apparently
were capable of back in the day.

> So not dancing puts that issur at two removes -- you /might/ use an instrument
> and then you /might/ tune it.
> R' TK

If I am correct above, then there is only one step: you /might/ build
a new instrument l'gamre, and since this is only one safek and not a
safek safeka, it is within the bounds of a gezera.

And being with others doesn't make it less likely to happen; on the
contrary, it is what enables it to happen in the first place!  And
probably, everyone else is in a festive spirit similar to your own,
and they won't think to stop you, and that's if they're not making
their own instruments too!

--------


instruments l'gamre even if they wanted to, and kal vachomer they
won't make an instrument simply because someone is tapping on the
table or clapping with his hands (or making circles of "Lecha Dodi"
around the beit midrash followed by a rousing rendition of "Mehera
hashem elokeinu, od yishama, b'arei yehuda..." on the bima, dancing
around the chatan-to-be...) I believe this new fact of society (viz.
not making instruments on a spur of the moment) is what raises the
question in the first place of whether there is grounds to be exempt
from this gezera.

Mikha'el Makovi

The greatest distancing is when talmidei chachamim are not connected  
with one another. The Netziv comments at length (introduction to Sefer  
Bereishit and Responsa Meishiv Davar 44) on Chazal's statement that on  
account of Sinas chinam the Beis Hamikdosh was destroyed. He explains  
that this was not plain baseless hatred, but in that generation there  
was lack of connection between talmidei chachamim because of the  
difference in their opinions, and there did not dwell between them  
love about their very greatness of Torah.

As long as we are disagreeable with even one other when we happen to  
disagree, we retain the midbar within ourselves. As long as we don't  
deal with the Fours Sons and as long as we don't embrace the arba  
minim and as long as we remain in the wilderness, we will miss the  
authentic Shavuos.

K.T.
ri
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On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 3:30 PM, Michael Makovi <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> My understanding is that the concern is you'll build a new musical
> instrument from scratch l'gamre, on the spot, as people apparently
> were capable of back in the day.
>
> Mikha'el Makovi


The fact is any child can build a musical instrument out of 2 empty walnut
shells and click them o make a beat this is called a castanet.

The facts WERE that this was VERY common in Spain and maybe not as common in
France but the CONCERN is always there

AIUI any rhythmic baning on a table of rhythmic slapping on the thigh or
rhythmic stomping on the ground is tantamount to playing a percussion
instrument.

In fact AhS notes that people tune and sting guitars nowadays.  So he claims
OUR dancing is differfent ayin orachchim 339
I am probably a da'as yachid ho holds that TUNING an instrument - as opposed
to REPAIRING an instrument - is mamash tikkun maneh or a d'orraisso of makeh
bepatish

Various levels:

   1. making one brand new
   2. Repairing
   3. Tuning

If you hold playing bongo drums is assur on Shabbos then I would add baning
on the table ESPECIALLY with cutlery is ALSO assur.

Suurice it so say consult the Mishna in Beiza, the SA [339] Rema AhS  Igros
Moshe, Kaf cahchayyim Mishna Bruar. I have seen Zichru toras Msohe and
Kehillas YT andI plan to see Chyei Adam and SA Harav, BEH

-
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 3:54 PM, saul mashbaum <smash52@netvision.net.il>
wrote:

> I wrote
>
> >The lechem hapanim was baked in a mold, and could be bent/folded.
>
> RRWolpoe responded:
>
> >> The Lechem Hapanim seems to have been quite firm and not soft or pliable
> at all.
>
> See MT T'midim v'Musafim 5:9, based on Menachot 56 . The Lechem Hapanim
> were baked 10 t'fachim long, and thus  extended two t'fachim on each side
> beyond the 6 t'fachim wide shulchan. Theye folded (kofel) up to fit on the
> shulchan.
>
> Saul Mashbaum
>
> GGZ & Thank you. I just consulted my Teimani friend "Yechiel" and he
explained me that his "soft" foldable matzos were like VERY thin laffa and
once folded would retain their shape. And I asked him about lechem Hapannim
,too.

So I must rethink this based upon newly obtained data. Previously I HAD
thought that the matzos were baked in a mold ALREADY firm and folded instead
of pliable and folded later


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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