Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 159

Wed, 30 Apr 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:25:19 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kaddish Yasom



On a related topic, a good friend of mine, an O. musmach lost his father
and there were many O. rabbis at the levaya.
He was told (contrary to what many feel is proper) that it was not
kovodik for a son to shovel earth, so he refrained from what he thought
was correct. Up until he told me that, I always encouraged children to
participate in the mitzvah. Has anyone ever heard of this minhag or
halacha?
ri
_______________________________________________
The general approach I've seen is to at most do a few symbolic shovels.
I've asked a number of Rabbis over the years and did not hear of a
hakpada (I asked since it seemed to me all things being equal, what
greater kavod hameit could there be than being actively  involved in the
final elements for one's loved one) When Avi Mori Vrabbi ZLL"HH was
niftar,I acted accordingly.

KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 2
From: Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:02:18 -0700
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kaddish Yasom


1. i believe it is a minhag in chabad to have maftir the whole year [ one 
person left the early minyan where i daven shabbos because we couldnt give 
him all the maftirs]

2. at a recent levaya, the chabad  rabbis didnt allow any  children or 
children in law to shovel the dirt....


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Message: 3
From: saul mashbaum <smash52@netvision.net.il>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:55:35 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Tfillin?chol hamoed



RYBS, in keeping with his family tradition, did not put on tfillin on chol
hamoed, which is the psak of the Gra. It is said that RMS once asked his
father RCS that since putting on tfillin on chaol hamoed is a  machloket
rishonim, shouldn't we out them on  misafek? RCS said that in his opinion
the g'mara (Arachin 10b) clearly indicates that the kdusha of chol hamoed
is comparable to the kdusha of Yom Tov, and is enough of an "ot" to be
poter from tfillin. All this is related in Nefesh HaRav p. 192.
The Gra on many issues paskens against the rishonim, based on his
conviction that his raayot form the g'mara justify his position. According
to this story, RCS sometimes adopted this approach as well.
Although the Brisker tradition is often associated with trying to fill all
opinions of the rishonim to the extent possible,  in the areas in which it
follows the Gra the approach is just the opposite, sometimes adopting
practices against the opinions of major rishonim.
Saul Mashbaum   

  
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:02:06 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza


RET wrote:
> RMF suggests using other matzot besides the 3 on the seder plate.
> Others distribute a set of 3 to each person (or couple)

Doesn't RMF have only 2 on the plate?

RZS replied:
> That's where we came from.  That is indeed what we do now that we've
> started using tiny matzot; and since we do so, there's no point in
> those who take from the box to eat two kezeitim.

Whereas the idea I was trying to express was:

According to RMF, there is clearly no haqpadah to have the kezayis from
any particular matzah, since otherwise how could you take them from the
box? In which case, why would he insist on 2 kezeisim even if taken from
the ke'arah?

According to those who require 3 matzos for every "chavurah" (to borrow
the term from the qorban), they seem to be maqpidim, and thus those of
them who also require 3 matzos should require 2 kezeisim. Also those who
require 2 matzos on the grounds of not requiring mishneh lechem (as REMT
explained the Gra, as opposed to RYBS's explanation for his own practice
that lekhem oni is the same din as mishneh lekhem and the se'udas YT).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

PS: REMT, I did eventually get to your post about the Gra's sevara. <g>

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?



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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:17:05 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] General: The Three Zechusim


On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 07:15:11PM -0400, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: R' Eliyahu Bachur doesn't say that it was in the merit of these three things
: that they were redeemed - he just says that they didn't _change_ these three
: things....                            For those interested, I quote the
: text: "U'k'she'ba Avraham L'eretz K'naan Hayah Hu V'zar'o Medabrim Sefas
: K'naan She'hi Lashon Hakodesh Mamash, V'af K'she'hayu Yisroel B'Mitzrayim Lo
: Azavuhu _K'mo She'amru Rabboseinu Zichronam L'vrachah Shloshah Dvarim Lo
: Shinu Yisroel B'Mitzrayim Shemosam, U'malbusham, U'l'shonam._"

I also seem to recall RZL posting something about Aramit being the
language in use even in Mitzrayim, retained since Avram's trim in
ARAM Naharaim. (Aram lending the name to the language.) I don't recall
the maqor.

The family that stayed behind spoke Aramaic -- eg Lavan's "Yigar
Sahadusah".

Seems to fit the quote here.

But I'm thrown.

Kenaan participated in Migdal Bavel, Avram did not. So how did they
retain Lashon haQodesh anf Avraham did not?

In any case, there must be a machloqes because I recall one that says
that Avram did retain LhQ because of Migdal. The opening to Yonah
Rabbah talks about Ashur not participating, for which he earned (1)
kesav Arshuris and (2) his desdendents got a 2nd chance when Yonah was
sent to their capital. Along the way, Ashur's retention of the kesav is
compared to Avram's retention of the spoken language.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?



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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:24:18 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Return of the Chometz


On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 08:21:53PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: What I always have found interesting is that removing chometz from our  
: homes was to be a time for us to reflect on removing the inflated ego  
: from our lives. We are to learn to be as humble and as unleavened as  
: matzo. But then just a week later, we're back to eating chometz...
:                                         I guess it would be too  
: cumbersome to do away with chometz forever, but perhaps once a month  
: (maybe Rosh Chodesh) we could symbolically eat matzah for that
: day (or two) just to remind us that our ego must be kept in check.

Numerous acharonim grapple with the question of why the Rambam doesn't
count zeikher yetzi'as Mitzrayim among the 613. One answer is that it's
subsumed under sippur yetzi'as Mitzrayim. Once a year we have to relive
the yetzi'ah at length, and every other day we revive our memory of that
experience through a short one liner zechirah.

I forgot which acharon I stumbled across that one in while browsing in
the sepharim store.

However, if so, then your idea could be taken as the point of the words
of Shema "lihyos lakhem lEilokim", to answer Hashem's calling rather
than imposing our own.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?



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Message: 7
From: "Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:37:28 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] mixed swimming, and allowing walking on the


> but there is little basis for forbidding, for example, mixed swimming, and
> allowing walking on the boardwalk next to the beach....
> R' Meir Shinar

> Which poskim are mattir walking on the boardwalk next to the beach?
>
> AISI it is clearly Assur. See Aruch Hashulchan EH 21: 1, 2 & 3.
>
> SBA

I think R' Shinar was being rhetorical. To prove the point that it
isn't swimming per se, but rather the un-tziut-ness (for which mixed
swimming is paradigmnatic but lav davka), he pointed out that walking
on the boardwalk is as prohibited as the actual swimming.

Mikha'el Makovi



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Message: 8
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:53:54 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kaddish Yasom


R' Akiva Miller:
> While my brothers and I were shoveling, someone -- within hearing range of
my
> mother -- commented, in a deprecating tone, "Look at that! They're burying
> their own father!!!"
> 
> When my mother related this to me, I told her that I wish I'd have heard
that
> comment, because my response would have been, "He tucked me into bed many
> times. Why shouldn't I return the favor?"

This of course reminds me of the Gemara (Berachos 9b), "Igra D'bei Tamya
Shtikusa." The Gemara kindly warns such people to keep their mouths shut. 

KT,
MYG 






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Message: 9
From: Yitzhak Grossman <celejar@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:09:39 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] chametz gamur


On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:49:57 +0200
"Eli Turkel" <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:

> <<My point was that even if everything was done kedas ukedin, I am sure
> you will be forced to rely on the store selling chameitz gamur. Okay,
> for the store it's arguably hefseid merubah in a way that for me it
> isn't. (Although I would argue that adding another couple of hundred
> dollars to the cost of Pesach /is/ merubah.)
> 
> However, for you, who has no such hefseid, you're still relying on the
> storeowner's lack of chumrah. At that point, what is gained by my not
> selling my own baked products?>>
> 
> I find this logic extremely strange. It amounts to saying that the store owner
> can sell because of hefsed merubah but preferably no one should buy from
> him. Doesn't accomplish very much.

Pis'hei Teshuvah (YD 31:2) cites a disagreement between Rav Akiva Eiger
and Hasam Sofer whether meat that has been permitted to its owner on
the grounds of hefsed me'rubah is also permitted to prospective
purchasers.

> Eli Turkel

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat




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Message: 10
From: Ben Waxman <ben1456@zahav.net.il>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 06:24:43 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] chametz gamur


In last week's Shabbat b'Shabbato, Rav HaCohen, the Rosh Yeshiva in Otniel, 
attacked the khurma for this very reason, albeit more strongly. Its not that 
the khurma doesn't make sense, its that you can't act in such a manner.


Ben
>

> From: "Eli Turkel" <eliturkel@gmail.com>

>
> I find this logic extremely strange. It amounts to saying that the store 
> owner
> can sell because of hefsed merubah but preferably no one should buy from
> him. Doesn't accomplish very much.
> 




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Message: 11
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:58:37 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Religious tolerance


On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Michael Makovi <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
wrote:

> And notice how the nevi'imcriticized the nations for their evil practices
> (human sacrifice,
> etc.) and not for their theology per se.


I've used this point to show that [within limits] Avodah Zoro can be OK for
a Gentile

See parshas ki solid.  It seems that there is a qualitative difference in
the critique of wroshiping etz vo'even and worshipping the shemesh/yarei'ach

While BOTH are of course assur for us Jews only the former is assure for a
Gentile - The disctinction being man-made idols [which are assur for
Gentiles]  vs. G-D-made [i.e Zva shamayim -asher chalak Lahem]

Thus Avaraham destoryed his father's idols, but he  could have been more
tolerant of the AZ of the Sun/Moon [even though he would have disputed this,
too even with Gentiles]

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 12
From: Daniel Israel <dmi1@hushmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:03:51 -0600
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Religious tolerance


Michael Makovi wrote:
> I was just musing, apropos of nothing**, about the following:

I'm not quite sure if there was a point you were trying to get to, but I 
would note the following:

> In theory, we say that anyone who doesn't follow the Noachide laws is
> a heretic or infidel or whatever, end of story. And of course, were we
> to have a religious state, there'd be practical implications (accept
> the laws or leave the country). But in practice, we don't go around
> criticizing any gentiles of being apikorsim for believing in a
> three-for-one special, and on the contrary, many (at least in the
> MOish community) have quite positive relationships with gentiles. I'm
> sure we all know that he believes in 3-in-1 and that he's surely
> stolen *something* from *someone* ( = violate Noachide laws) sometime
> in his life, and yet we don't seem to hold it against him, at least
> not publicly. I am thinking that perhaps it is a gap between theory
> and practice.

I think you are mixing two things here.  As far as I know, none of the 
Jews I've met are free of sin either.   I would list three specific 
distinctions:

First, usually someone who practices AZ actually rejects monothesim, 
whereas a thief doesn't necessarily reject the notion that stealing is 
wrong, rather he has some rationalization as to why this is not 
stealing, or why he has no choice, or just admits he is doing something 
he shouldn't be.

Second, even for Jews we recognize that ganievah is not the same as AZ. 
  A Jew who worships AZ is kofer b'ikar, but a Jewish thief is a choteh, 
but not rejected from amchah.

Thirdly, there is definitely who to rely on that 3-in-1 is not AZ for goyim.

The consequence of the first two points is that we don't necessarily 
have to relate to a non-Jewish thief all that differently than to a 
Jewish thief, at least as far as the question of whether the person is a 
"apikoris."

And from the third point, the non-Jewish trinitarian (but not pantheist) 
may not even be an aku"m in the strict sense.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu




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Message: 13
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 00:15:17 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Daas Torah


On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> He would push his talmidim to learn how to be
> autonomous LORs before assuming the role. The yeshivish LOR is more
> likely to refer to his RY. Balance needs to be found -- matching ability
> to responsibility assumed.
>
> But notice that the first half of this post, defining Daas Torah is
> totally unrelated to the issues raised in the half about MO and DT.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>


It is clear from pashas yisro [set aside the 70 for a mintue] that there is
a Torah hierarchy. Sarei Assoross, Sarei Hamishim etc.

Any group will eventually settle into a hierarchy by its very nature, the
leaders will rise to the top and the low-level leaders to the middle etc.

Any rabbi who is not an ego-maniac or a victim of really low-self-esteem
will pretty much realize which rung he is on - l'havdil Grandmaster Sober
said before Americans  made a fettish about belt-rankings, martial arts
school students INTUITIVELY knew the hierarchy of who was more senior w/o
any special belts or hitzoniyosdik symbols.  They knew who was on which
madreiga.

of course Torah is a bit more complex. than my colleague R. Howard Jachter
is certainly a greater expert than I in gittin about which I know almost
Zero, but it's still possible I know issur v'heter better.

Often I consult other rabbonim just to get an objective outside opinion even
if I feel competent on the issues [ein dan yechidi ela echod, tov
hashnayyim  min ho'echad, etc.]


Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 14
From: Daniel Israel <dmi1@hushmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:45:44 -0600
Subject:
[Avodah] Yichus and IVF


An interesting question came up at our Shabbos table recently.  If a 
Jewish woman donates an egg for IVF to a non-Jewish couple, what is the 
status of the child?  Is there consensus among the poskim on this?  Can 
anyone point me to some good references?  Thanks.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu




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Message: 15
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 00:03:08 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Letter of RSRH


On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Joseph C. Kaplan <jkaplan@tenzerlunin.com>
wrote:

>  "TK:  Both you and SBA insisted that Hirsch would have been Neturei
> Karta or
> Satmar in his attitude towards the modern Israeli state if he  were alive
> today.  I am certain that is NOT true.  He would have been  RWO,
> non-Zionist but
> would have viewed developments in E'Y as overwhelmingly  positive and a
> sign of
> Divine benevolence."
>
> I simply don't understand how anyone can predict how the Holocaust and the
> actual creation of the State of Israel would have affected RSRH's thinking
> about Zionism.  One can as easily say that he would have become the Honorary
> President of Mizrachi as say that he would be NT, Satmar or RWO.  Oh, sorry,
> that was a different gadol who switched from being a member of the presidium
> of Agudah to the Honorary President of Mizrachi after the Holocaust.
>
> Joseph Kaplan
>
>
I cannot speak for certain as to wWhat RSRH MIGHT have done that is
speucalation.

What I can say for certain is that his grandson Rav Jospeh Breuer was
virulently Anti-Zionist -almost as much as Satmar was.  I would venture to
say that his Brother R. Isaac Breuer might have been far leas anti-Zionist
[irc he was a founder/leader of Poalei Agudah]

I see little evidence that RSRH would have taken a pro-Zionist stance. Then
again, I would venture to say that if had lived during the Nazi ysv regime
he might have dropped Austrit.  AISI the Holocaust changed a  lot of minds
about a lot of things.


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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