Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 144

• 1. Re: Lying to protect the simple of faith (Michael Makovi)
• 2. Re: Violate Shabbat to Save a Jentile (T6...@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Violate Shabbat to Save a Jentile (Michael Makovi)
• 4. Re: Austritt, TIDE, and Israel (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: Exempt from Loshon Hara (Richard Wolpoe)
• 6. Re: Co-Education is it ever acceptable (Richard Wolpoe)
• 7. Re: Daas Torah (Richard Wolpoe)
• 8. Re: Tiqun Olam (Richard Wolpoe)
• 9. Re: letter of RSRH (joshh...@aol.com)

> Nor could Rambam
> ever have intended to mean, "And Chazal grossly erred when they said
> Yehoshua wrote the last few verses describing Moshe's death."

> R' Toby Katz

I didn't mean this. I simply meant that Rambam rejected this *aggadic*
opinion of Chazal, like we are allowed to do with any aggadah. As Dr.
Shapiro put it, fact is not dogma, and Rambam can assert that there
are no post-Moshe additions, without it declaring the contrary opinion
(Gemara, ibn Ezra, Rabbi Yehuda heChasid) to be heresy.

> It IS heresy to believe that
> all or part of the Torah was written by human beings out of their own heads.

Well, now that you've added "out of their own heads", of course it's
heresy! I meant, suppose G-d inspired Ezra haSofer to add some
narrative and explanation and such (not halacha/mitzva) to the Torah's
discussion of intermarriage. Is that heresy to believe such a thing?

> To call the Rambam himself a liar is the height of arrogance.

I understand that you could disagree. But arrogance? I didn't arrogate
to myself any superiority, nor did I see it as a criticism of Rambam.
All I said was that for the sake of the simple and ignorant, sometimes
you can't tell the truth. You tell something whose nafka mina is true,
but whose substance isn't really all that true. In the essence of the
idea, the Torah we have is the same as given to Moshe - as the rabbi
whose name I cannot remember, the important principle is that "for all
intents and purposes" we have a Torah that is from Moshe. But in the
details, this is wrong, and we really ought to say "from Heaven,
largely if not totally from Moshe, with human error and possibly with
human insertions based on some sort of G-dly command". But the more
schmuks won't get it, and will confuse our admission with the Muslim
claim.

From: "Michael Makovi" _mikewinddale@gmail.com_
(mailto:mikewindd...@gmail.com)

>>Personally,  it seems to me that if we can say that Shabbat was given
to us and not us to  Shabbat, kal vachomer jentiles were not given to
Shabbat (to lose their lives  on its account).

Is there any more to be said on this  machloket?<<









>>>>>
It was Jesus who said, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the
Sabbath.?  It's in the New Testament.  Not exactly a halachic  source.


--Toby  Katz
=============





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> It was Jesus who said, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the
> Sabbath."  It's in the New Testament.  Not exactly a halachic source.
> --Toby Katz

But maybe we can drink to the hava amina? But seriously...

http://www.aishdas.org/student/shabbat.htm

Yoma 85a-b
R. Yonatan ben Yosef[46] said: "For it is holy to you" (Exodus 31:14)
-- It is given to your hands and not you to its hands.
[46 Mekhilta has R. Shimon ben Menasia]

Mikha'el Makovi

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:53 PM, SBA <s...@sba2.com> wrote:

>
>
> In the biography of RSR Hirsch in 'Shemesh Marpeh' it cites a letter he
> wrote to one of the early Mizrachist rabbis (I can't recall if it was R'
> Kalisher or R Reines) who had been noodging him (and eventually becoming
> quite nasty) because RSRH kept ignoring his letters and wasn't prepared to
> use his influence on Baron Rothschild to support the 'great mitzvah' of
> his
> idea of Yishuv EY (IIRC).
>
> RSRH eventually replies to him saying "what in your eyes is a great
> Mitzvah
> is in my eyes no small aveireh.."!
>
> Thus I would suggest that the had RSRH lived in our - post establishment
> of
> the Medinah - days, there is more than a probability that he would have
> lined up with the EH/Satmar team rather than Agudah..
>
> SBA



Many in the Breuer  community likened Rav Breuer's stand to be ALMOST
Satmar/neturei karta in opposition fo zionism [at least pre-1948 if not
beyond].  I suspect that is the single biggest rift between Breuer's and YU
- although many will claim it is about more lofty ism's such as TIDE vs.
TuM.

--
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 6:30 AM, Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
wrote:

> I have a very interesting question for Avodah.  Is a newspaper exempt
> from loshon hara?
> In other words, if a prominent Jewish person is charged with any
> crime, is the publishing
> of the story by a newspaper loshon hara and/or rechilus?  Without
> going into specifics,
> (otherwise I would be perpetuating the salacious story), if a
> prominent (or even average)
> Jewish person were charged with having been involved in an adulterous
> relationship (whether
> it was true or not) and it was put in the newspaper, is the newspaper
> guilty of loshon hara?
>
> Also, would there be different standards if it were true or not true?
>
> ri


I would say NOT exempt.

At most a news disseminator can state that there are allegations, but in no
way can take any side on the FACTS, unless perhaps the  writer is an eye
witness.

And this assumes all the other restrictions are in place [to'eles, etc.]

AISI the biggest problem with newsmedia is reporting allegations as facts.


Willie Helmreich - author of the world of the Yeshiva - was asked the
following question:
"We work here on miracles- how can you report THAT in your book?"

His reply:
"I will report that you claim that you work on miracles"

IOW, the author will present the statement because he witnessed it himself
[ear witness?] but he cannot report miracles he has not seen but only heard
about as facts. OTOH he is not so cynical as to deny that there wre indeed
nissim keeping these yeshivos going. He would simply give a neutral tone:
That Yeshiva X claims it survives by miracles.

So newspaperse must play by the Halachah, and not present claims as facts.
While there are numerous other  Halachos, too, this just seems to me to be
"the biggie".
--
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 11:16 AM, Rich, Joel <JR...@sibson.com> wrote:

>  Article by R' A Lebowitz in the RJJ journal.
>
> The general sense I got from this article is that if not for practical
> considerations (this would be an interesting discussion in itself as to
> which and why)the author believes that the eternal "ideal" would be for a
> homogeneous orthodox community to have parallel men's and women's societies
> that only intersect in the home between husband and wife and, perhaps,
> immediate family members.
>
> I'm curious as to the chevra's take on this.
>
> KT&CKVS
> Joel Rich
>

Disclaimer I ahve not seen the artcile : is there a URL?
AISI it makes sense for women to have women doctor's and men to have male
doctors' [more tznius]

And if WTG is legit then we really should evolve towards separate services
completely with having men's minyaninm and women's tefillah [albeit w/o a
minyan]

I don't know how far to take this "separate but equal" theme but it is imho
the simplest way to accomodate both tsni'us and the enalbing of modern women
to fully participate

--
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 12:44 PM, <T6...@aol.com> wrote:

>
> To which RRW wrote:
>
>
> >>So are you saying a big talmid chochom can never be wrong?<<
>
>  >>>>>>
> This is a very common misconception of what da'as Torah means.
>
> Right wing Orthodox (RWO) -- the people who tend to actually believe that
> there is such a thing as "da'as Torah"  -- never think that their rabbanim,
> poskim and gedolim are infallible.  It is only people outside the RWO orbit
> who mistakenly imagine that RWO people believe in something like papal
> infallibility.
>
> The true meaning of da'as Torah, as understood by the RWO Jews who
> actually believe in it, is that the more pious and the greater a talmid
> chacham is, the more likely it is that he will give you good advice in your
> personal life and that he will give Klal Yisrael good advice on a communal
> level.  Naturally people in need of good advice and counseling will seek out
> those who are wiser than themselves, but no one imagines that a gadol can
> 'never' be wrong.
>
> *
> *
> *--Toby Katz
> =============*
>

Many years ago on this list I advocated the position re: Psak that a Gadol
is not necesarily correct on anygiven  issue, he just has a higher "batting
average" in general. [Illustration:  think of the Taz on temimos requiring
davening a late Ma'ariv on Shavuos, etc. I don't argue with him because I am
greater, just that sometimes even a Gadol can miss the mark...]

But the notion of Da'as Torah in worldly affairs has to be taken with a
grain of salt.

Illustration: Why should a "gadol" consult a physician re: cases of sakkanah
etc.? Isn't his da'as Torah better than that of a mere doctor?  therefore -
should I consult a financial planner or a rav for economic advice?  yada
yada yada.

Of course A member of Sanhedrin needs to master 70 languages - this has been
explained as to include being conversant in various "chachmos".  A real
Gadol would consult with experts in various fields before rendering a
decisoin, unles that Gadol is already an expert. Certainly Rambam did not
need to consult an outside Physician  and  I'm sure some Rabbonim having a
degrees in Math need not consult other mathematicians.   But the average
Gadol might be conversant in a matter w/o being an expert!

Example: I was taught in junior high that vinegar is Acetic Acid AND that
aspirin is made from acetic acid and salicylic acid. On that basis I used to
assum that aspirin was a product of  hametz!  But I was corrected by
practical chemists and pharmacists who explained that using grain vinegar
was prohibitive in the manufacture of aspirin!  So a little learning can be
dangerous and misleading.

RMF in IM was concerned that Shabbos Clocks would undermine the spirit of
Shabbos if used for anything but lights. This concern was never manifest
[afaik] in those communities that use it for A/C etc.



Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Richard Wolpoe <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Yeeks held that kabbalh was for privateyechidei  Segulah as a reaction to
> Shabtai Z'vi. Kabballah was put in the deep background [as nistar should be]
>
>
I was reading the Bio of R. Wlf Heidnehim at the back of the Heidenheim
haggadah

He purposefully would NOT translate certain piyytuim a likely to be
misconstrued by the masses and be dangerous.

Similarly the haftara of the first day of Shavuos is not translated to this
day in the Roedelheim Machzor nor AFAIK in the Mendel Hirsch book on
Haftoros.   The disclaimer is that they are too sublime for translation.

Bottom line, the Yekkisher community from Heidneheim through Hirsch to this
day have consistently opposed making Nistar readily available to the masses.

That is NOT to say that they dismissed Nistar as meaningless or evil or
false, just plain dangerous in the wrong hands.

FWIW The Sefer hachinuch while acknowledging the existence of nistar is
reluctant to engage in using it to explain ta'amei mitzvos

--
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWol...@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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RSRH eventually replies to him saying "what in your eyes is a great Mitzvah
is in my eyes no small aveireh.."!


The letter was to Rav Kalischer. Rabbi Klugman, who included this
letter in his excellent ?biography of RSRH, maintained, in an article
on JO, that Rav Hirsch?never ?changed his position in this regard
However, the fact is that?RSRH did send money to help support a group
of religious German?Jews who had setttled?in EY.Moreover, his
opposition was largely based on his patrotism to Germany, which he
wrote of extensively. As he grew older, and German anti- Semitism
began to increase, his enthusiasm for?Germany began to wanr, and
I?think it is reasonable to assume that had he lived longer and seen
how fat this animus would go, ?his oppposition to settlement in
EY?woukd have also decreased. .?

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