Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 137

Wed, 16 Apr 2008

• 1. Re: Kazayyit size (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: FW: Eat Karpas - Leaning? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Kazayyit size (Saul Guberman)
• 4. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza. (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Eat Karpas - Leaning? (SBA)
• 6. Re: Eat Karpas - Leaning? (SBA)
• 7. Re: K'zayis as weight not volume? (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza. (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 9. seder motzei shabbat (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Eat Karpas - Leaning? (Danny Schoemann)
• 11. Re: Da'at Torah (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: Chinese repression in Tibet - al pi Torah? (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: R' Angel & Geirus Redux (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 14. western wall (Eli Turkel)

On Sun, April 13, 2008 11:03 am, D&E-H Bannett wrote:
: I wrote some years ago on the list about the measurements
: made by R' Avi Greenfield on the sizes on a circle of hand
: matza of 1.8 mm thickness

: Mishna Brura:             60 cc    20.5 cm diameter
: Shiurin shel Torah:       50 cc    19 cm dia
: Chazon Ish (in Kuntres)   33 cc    15 cm dia
: R' Chayyim Na'eh          27 cc    14 cm dia
: Chazon Ish at his seder   17 cc    11 cm dia
: (l'fi R' Ch. Kanievsky)
: R' Chayyim Benish          7.5 cc  7.4 cm dia
: R' Chayyim Volzhiner       3 cc    4.7 cm dia

I am amazed that we can't agree on the shiur of a kezayis within the
nearest factor of 20 (60 cc vs 3 cc)!

Also, I presume that the CC didn't eat 60cc of matzah any more than he
drank a MB shiur of matzah. Otherwise his lema'aseh length wouldn't
cube to what the CC used for volume. Like the CI, who also shows a gap
between sterile theory and practice as informed by what his father
did.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of
Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 01:26:11PM +1000, SBA wrote:
: Our Minhag has always been not to 'lean to the left' when eating Karpas.
: But learning KSA (119:3)this morning, I see that it rules that one 
: should do so.

Karpas is dipped in "dema'os", so most of us do not recline (as we
don't for maror). However, the purpose of karpas is to cause children
to launch into the questions of Maggid. If the ikkar is sipur YM, then
it's not just a reenactment of avdus and could require reclining.

Along these lines, I noticed a pattern (seder) WRT the 4 kosos. From
qiddush until we fill the cup for Maggid, everything is about avdus.
Karpas as above, and yachatz creating the lachma anya. The 2nd kos
(maggid) is telling the story me'avdus lecheirus. The 3rd kos runs from
Motzi-Matza through Shulchan Oreikh, reliving the transition mei'avdus
lecheirus. And the last kos is entirely over shevach vehodaah for cheirus.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 4:47 PM, D&E-H Bannett <dbnet@zahav.net.il> wrote:

> In another, commenting on the new large zeitim,  I mentioned the CS
> shita. He did not swallow the 2 zeitim little by little but,
> chewed and gathered them in one cheek after which he
> swallowed the entire amount all at once. Try putting two
> whole matzas or even one whole matza in one cheek and then
> swallowing it all at once.  Perhaps a Jewish pelican might
> succeed.
>

I don't understand this.  Isn't the mitzvah to "eat matza on that night"?
How is this derech achilah?  How can you make a bracha & then eat this
way?

Same questions about gulping down the wine?

Saul
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On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:24 PM, R Davidovich <raphaeldavidovich@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I brought this up on a Hirhurim comment thread, but was ignored.  So let
> me bring it up here.
>
> Motzi-Matza. The practice of eating two k'zeisim is cited in shulchan
> Aruch O"C 475, even though it is only quoted by the Rosh, (and then of
> course the Tur) and not the Rambam or Rif, who say that one k'zayis is
> enough.  At first and second and third glance, this seems to be based on the
> perceived need to have one kzayis from the top matza and one kzayis from the
> middle matza.  "Ein Osin Mizvos Chavilos Chavilos" seems to mean we don't
> bundle mitzvos together, but take each one separately.
>
> Raffy
>
> See Aruch Hashulchan who discusses this. I don' recall the precise details
but if you were to ask me I what I got out of it is the following:


   1. You need one k'zayis for the mitzva,
   2. You need SOME matza in addition for hamotzi
   3. Where I am fuzzy is why that additional amount needs to be an
   entire k'zayyis [I saw it but I did not get it and I had no time to figure
   it out]
   4. re: Eating 2 k'zaisim at the same time:  it  makes little sense to
   me, the important thing is just to not be mafsik  and to coniually consuse
   as best as one can [iirc AhS agrees on this point.]

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Our Minhag has always been not to 'lean to the left' when eating Karpas.
But learning KSA (119:3)this morning, I see that it rules that one 
should do so.

The MB doesn't mention it and I have yet to find any tana demesaye.

Can anyone add some light?

SBA

 
From: SBA [mailto:sba@sba2.com] 
Our Minhag has always been not to 'lean to the left' when eating Karpas.
But learning KSA (119:3)this morning, I see that it rules that one should do
so.
The MB doesn't mention it and I have yet to find any tana demesaye.
========

I had actually checked out the sefer Likutei Maharich (which is usually one
of the first seforim I consult when after information on minhagim or
nus'chaos etc),but surprisingly couldn't find anything there. 

An einikel of its Mechaber (we have a whole bunch of them here) pointed out
to me that I was looking in the wrong section,ie,"Hanhogas HaSeder". 

He directed me to the following section - "Seder HaSimonim" where indeed the
LM  does discuss this. 

He writes that the Abarbenel (and KSA) require 'heseibeh'for Karpas, while a
number of others do not and concludes that the minhag is not to lean.

SBA

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 08:10:40PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : In the case of matzah, the traditional conversion factor happens
> : to be 1.  It appears that experimental data contradicts that tradition;
> : if verified then the practise needs to be re-evaluated.  Maybe sefardi
> : matzot are denser than the ones Ashkenazim use today.
> 
> No baked good could be nearly as dense as a liquid. There is incomparably
> less gas disolved in water than air-holes in matzah. And soft matzah
> would have to be even LESS dense than our crackers in order to be soft
> (and yet made of the same material).

Density isn't just a factor of micro-holes (and macro holes don't count).
Liquids are not all the same density, and that is not a factor of how
much gas is dissolved in them.  The tradition is indeed to consider
both bread and matzah to have a density only negligibly less than that
of water; perhaps that tradition is wrong and has always been wrong,
or perhaps it depends on how one makes the dough.


> Picture it: ROY says the shiur if 27gm. He gave that assuming 1 gm means
> 1 cc, or IOW he was giving shitas R' Chaim Na'ah -- 27cc.

He is giving shitas haRamabam, and the centuries-old traidition of
Yerushalayim.  Which is the shita that R A.C. Naeh reported.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

R' Raffy Davidovich wrote:
> The practice of eating two k'zeisim is cited in shulchan
> Aruch O"C 475 ... this seems to be based on the perceived
> need to have one kzayis from the top matza and one kzayis
> from the middle matza.

According to Mishneh Berura 475:9, there is a machlokes whether the "Al
Achilas Matza" is being said over the top matza or the middle matza. He
explains that everyone agrees that we should eat a kezayis from the Al
Achilas Matza one, and only need a tiny bit from the Hamotzi one, but since
we don't know which is which, eat a kezayis from each.

> is there any reason for a person who is not eating from
> the matzos located on the seder plate to eat two k'zeisim?
> After all, this person is not eating one k'zayis from the
> top matza and one k'zayis from the middle matza anyway. He's
> eating from the box matzos that the host is passing around.

I have seen several places which make this point, but unfortunately, I cannot remember where they are.

But there is another argument which would apply even here: If they take two
kzaysim, as measured by the small-kezayis authorities, it will be more than
one kezayis even of the large-kezayis authorities, and so he will be sure
of having met the Torah requirement.

Akiva Miller
_____________________________________________________________
Click to make millions by owning your own franchise.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc
/Ioyw6i3m6iR8J770y1A60MoLc19I0rPDU0GWBfDNB6tFQDdzdeYtlg/

When the seder is motzei shabbat (this year) MB brings down that one should
arrange the candles for yom tov before shabbat.
The Pri Chadash says the whole seder table should be arranged before shabbat.

I don't know what kind of houses they had then. However, if one wants to use
silver candlesticks most homes have only one set so the same candlesticks
are used on shabbat and yom tov.
For the dining room if one has a family with children then there is no
way to eat
in a separate place for shabbat and seder.
Do people really do this?

-- 
Eli Turkel

> Our Minhag has always been not to 'lean to the left' when eating Karpas.
> But learning KSA (119:3)this morning, I see that it rules that one
> should do so.
>
> The MB doesn't mention it and I have yet to find any tana demesaye.
>
> Can anyone add some light?

The Sefer Sha'arei Yemei HePessach (on pg 146) says:
- it's a machlokes of minhogim
- the Birkey Yosef (473:14) says that per Kabala one shouldn't.
- the popular minhag is not to lean
- somebody w/o a minhag should not lean.

- Danny

 
RTK's very clear explanation of what she believes da'at (or daas, if you
like) Torah is leaves open one issue:  once you ask advice on a personal
matter, or a community representative asks advice on a communal matter,
what obligation, if any, does the person asking for the advice have to
follow it?  Is it legitimate to ask for advice, consider it seriously,
and then decide not to follow it?  
 
Joseph Kaplan 
====================================================================
A more basic question is when does the ratzon hatorah require or suggest
you ask.  IIRC R' Amital points to this need to ask as a more recent
development based on lack of religious self-confidence.
 
kt & ckvs
joel rich 
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Micha Berger wrote:

> And here, no one has established to my satisfaction that my co
> worker's "library" (2 books) misrepresents his religion. AISI, they
> might be very showy in worshipping 'saints' -- people who realized
> their unity with the all -- complete with offerings, effigies, etc...
> but the books they present to US believers do not claim to have
> multiple deities.

Is your co-worker from Tibet?  Does he say that his religion is Tibetan?
Or is it a more orthodox kind of Buddhism?  All I have written on this
subject has been about the Tibetan religion, not about Buddhism in
general.  There are certainly versions of Buddhism which go so far from
being AZ that they're more like atheism.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:09:12 +0300
"Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> nevertheless their sin has practical ramifications; if I accidentally
> knock someone's mailbox down because my car malfunctioned, I'm chayav
> even though I'm not at fault. Perhaps R' Hoffman means only this.

The driver of the car that malfunctioned is not necessarily liable;
Rema (HM 378:1) rules that Adam Mu'ad L'Olam doesn't include Ones Gamur.

> Mikha'el Makovi

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

Israel intends to fix parts of the western wall added by Montiofore
JPOST
<<Just how to repair the damaged stones at the holy site is, however,
another issue altogether, as engineering gets mixed in with religion.

Citing Biblical interdiction, Rabinovitch said that Jewish law or
halacha forbids removing any of the stones of the Wall, even to repair
them.

In the past, Israel's Sephardi Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar has said that
repair work at the Western Wall should only be done by Jews after they
had gone through a mikve, and that the work could only be carried out
during the day. >>

1. Do these recent sections have kedusha?
2. Do these laws of building the bet hamikdash apply today?
3. This is an outer restraining wall
4. I have doubts that when Herod did this wall e employed only Jews
who went to the mikveh each day

-- 
Eli Turkel


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