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Volume 25: Number 29

Sun, 20 Jan 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:46:36 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] "Blei Gissen" should we believe in


On Jan 17, 2008 7:06 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Sun, January 13, 2008 9:20 am, R Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> : What is unclear is how wer they effective? if they had a certain :
> Tefillah or affirmation [e.g. this amulet wil bring a refuah shleima :
> to its wearer ...] then it might not have worked by means of "magic" :
> but rather by means of "positive thinking" similar to a pacebo...
>
> It might even working by creating hirhurei tefillah, and thus
> generating zechuyos in the sechar/va'onesh plane. (As I suggested
> earlier on this thread.)
>
> SheTir'u baTov!
> -micha
>

Question: If hirhurei Tefillah were THEh dynamic then what is the difference
between a muchzak who has had 3 successful amulets and one that has NOT had
a successful amulet?

AISI f positive thinking is involved then one's confidence would be boosted
by a muchzak and NOT by a rank amateur. But withi hirhurim it would be about
the same either way...


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 2
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:59:40 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] What is galut


On Jan 15, 2008 5:07 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> Both the four leshonos of ge'ulah as well as Dani'el's statue are
> explained in terms of 4 goliyos: Bavel, Paras uMadai, Yavan and Edom.
>
> The fact that galus Yavan occured while we were in Israel ties in well
> to many vertlach told about Chanukah -- that Purim was an existential
> threat, but Chanukah was a threat to Yahadus, not our physical
> wellbeing.
>
> Galus is defined first and foremost as the absence of the Shechinah,
> not the absence of Jews from Israel.
>
> ..
> SheTir'u baTov!
> -micha


FWIW that is how I explained that  the 420 years of Bayyis Sheini might have
taken place over about 586 physical years because there were "times-out"
such as galus Yavan in the interim that stopped the "clock"  so to speak.


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 3
From: "Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:30:41 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] 15 fruits- [RavAviner] Parashat Beshalach 5768


> Again, for my part, there is no machloqes between RaMCHaL and RSRH: the
> sugya doesn't say what effort one must expend in order to "behold" a given
> item/aspect of this world, nor (to repeat what I wrote before) does it say
> one must indulge in "beholding"; and I don't understand RaMCHaL as
> advocating blocking oneself from any form of "beholding." Rather, he notes
> as a basic axiom in MY 13 (as he begins outlining ways in which a person can
> improve from being a "tzaddiq" to becoming a "chassid") that re those
> aspects of this world which are "muchrach lo mei-eizeh ta'am sheyihyeh," a
> person would be a "chotei" rather than a chassid should he be "poreish" from
> them.
>
> Gut Voch/Shavua Tov and all the best from
> --Michael Poppers via RIM pager

The reason I say that Ramchal has a machloket, is that he actively
extols perishut from all pleasures (such as food) except what is
absolutely necessary for physical life. He explicitly makes the ideal
to be one who abstains from all food that is not explicitly necessary
to live. Mesilat Yesharim brings up the dictum that one must account
for all pleasures he denied himself, but he says that this means only
those pleasures that are necessary for life itself. (If I remember
correctly; I don't have Mesilat Yesharim in front of me, and I've only
learned it once bekiut.)

By contrast, RSRH and others like him, seem to understand this dictum
according to what is (IMHO) the p'shat: Hashem gave us a beautiful
wonderful world of amazing pleasures and joys, and He wants us to
avail ourselves of them! He put them here davka for us to go
appreciate them! Obviously, there is a certain way of doing this; not
as a hedonist, but as one who appreciates that it all comes from
Hashem, that it is all created lichvodo, etc. etc. To describe how
this shita does not equal hedonism could take up a treatise, for which
I am not fit to author.

Obviously, the machloket is not absolute. Much of what Ramchal says
about how to use pleasures, RSRH will agree to. The difference is
rather one of perspective and emphasis, not on the actual pratim.

I would posit that this machloket is similar to that between TIDE and
parnasa-only. One says secular learning is intrinsically valuable (BUT
within certain limits, that again are detailed and controversial, as
just above), and the other says secular learning is for sustaining
life itself, only.

Mikha'el Makovi



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Message: 4
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:51:32 EST
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Roast lamb (from areivim)


 
 
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
>>Also remember that the KP  doesn't have to be a lamb.  It could be a kid.
I've never had kid, and  I'm sure RTK hasn't either, but perhaps she'd
like it more than  lamb.<<




>>>>>
From what I hear, goat meat is very tough.  Any of you honchos out  there 
ever eaten it?  In any case I seriously don't think I could bring  myself to eat 
it.  What about tofu korban Pesach, any chance that will be  allowed in the 
Third BHM'K?  That would be more my speed.  Now, just  curious, but what does 
Rav Kook say about this?  He was a vegetarian IIRC  and even held that 
vegetarianism is a higher spiritual madreigah than  carnivorism?  I think.  Does it say 
anywhere that when Moshiach comes  and the lion lies down with the lamb, that 
we will all go back to Edenic days  and all stop eating meat?  And then what 
will be with the Korban Pesach, or  with all the other korbanos?
 
This reminds me of another only slightly related question that I've had  for 
a long time:  what was the point of Hevel being a shepherd, and also,  what 
was the point of Hevel sacrificing animals to Hashem, if they weren't even  
allowed to slaughter animals [and/or weren't allowed to eat animals] until  after 
the Mabul?





--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good values,  good family, good hair
Best hope against  Hillary



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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Message: 5
From: "Liron Kopinsky" <liron.kopinsky@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 01:54:11 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Court System Models


In this weeks coming parsha, we see an interesting (and well known)
difference when comparing Yitro's advice to Moshe.
Yitro: All big things come before Moshe, all small things are handled by the
regular judges.
Moshe's Implementation: All hard things come before Moshe, all simple things
are handled by the judges.

It just occured to me this week that the US court system is almost exactly
Yitro's advice. The more high-profile (and big) a court case is, the higher
it gets pushed in the courts until it could reach the supreme court.
Contrast this with the Halachik process, where the average person asks their
rabbi who, if he doesn't know the answer ask his rav etc.

Kol Tuv,
~Liron Kopinsky
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Message: 6
From: "Chana Luntz" <chana@kolsassoon.org.uk>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:03:49 -0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Fasting on YK


RYG writes:

> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:10:04 +0200
> "Ilana Sober" <ilanasober@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> [context is an unwell woman fasting on YK]
> 
> > AFAIK, if no one else is available, the husband should also 
> stay home 
> > and take care of his wife and/or kids if that will enable 
> the wife to 
> > fast.
...

> These positions are attributed to RSZA, and see notes 166 and 
> 189. [My translation from the Hebrew edition.]
> 
> The principle is that I am not obligated to suffer in order 
> to prevent hilul Shabbos on behalf of a holeh she'yesh bo 
> sakkanah; one could therefor argue that a husband who really 
> minded missing YK prayers would not be obligated to miss them 
> in order to save his wife from the necessity of eating.  Of 
> course, the language (RSZA's?) contains the wording "za'ar 
> gadol" and "mi'dina", and RnIS's comment that the husband 
> "should also stay home" may still be true.

It seems to me that there is a major difference between the case
discussed by RSZA and the case here of a woman fasting on YK.  In the
case discussed by RSZA, the sick person is already in the matzav of
being a choleh sheyesh bo sakana, for which the standard rule is that
shabbas is docheh.  The only question is, if in fact one can, by
resorting to a neighbour, avoid the chillul shabbas that would otherwise
be automatic, at the cost of the neighbour enduring tzar.

But in the case RIS is bringing, the woman, at the start of Yom Kippur,
cannot be said to be in the situation of a choleh sheyesh bo sakana.
And, it would seem, if she does not run around after her children, she
will not find herself in that state.  So if the man stays home from shul
and instead does that running around after the children, he is
preventing the woman from ever getting into the position of a choleh she
yesh bo sakana, which would then force her to eat.  Only if he does not
stay home, and she runs around after the children, will she put herself
into the state in which she is then required to eat.  So is not this
case if anything more like the case of al tamod al dam re'echa?  If the
husband does not step in (or hire help, or whatever) he is letting his
wife slip into a situation of being a choleh she yesh bo sakana (with,
inter alia, the consequence that she will have to eat on yom kippur).
It seems to me that mere tzar in this latter case would not be enough to
allow the husband to patur himself from preventing such an occurrence -
in a similar way that if she was at risk of being put in the matzav of a
choleh she yesh bo sakana by a river or a rodef or whatever, mere tzar
on behalf of the neighbour or husband would not be enough to patur him
or them from acting.

> I also do not know if this view is accepted by other Poskim.
> 
> > - Ilana
> 
> Yitzhak

Regards 

Chana




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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:45:50 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] 15 fruits- [RavAviner] Parashat Beshalach 5768


On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 07:30:41PM +0200, Michael Makovi wrote:
: The reason I say that Ramchal has a machloket, is that he actively
: extols perishut from all pleasures (such as food) except what is
: absolutely necessary for physical life...

I repeat, nisht azoi klor. See my post of Jan 9 at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol25/v25n014.shtml#06>.

I try to get a consistent shitah out of what looks like conflicting
quotes, and conclude that the Ramchal's perishus excludes that which leads
to aveirah, and that which someone can get addicted to ("ad sheyatzrikh
kol kach vetachbulos lehafrisho meihem"). Not actually anything not
actively needed for avodas H'.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
micha@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie



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Message: 8
From: "Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:44:01 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Court System Models


> In this weeks coming parsha, we see an interesting (and well known)
> difference when comparing Yitro's advice to Moshe.
> Yitro: All big things come before Moshe, all small things are handled by the
> regular judges.
> Moshe's Implementation: All hard things come before Moshe, all simple things
> are handled by the judges.
>
> It just occured to me this week that the US court system is almost exactly
> Yitro's advice. The more high-profile (and big) a court case is, the higher
> it gets pushed in the courts until it could reach the supreme court.
> Contrast this with the Halachik process, where the average person asks their
> rabbi who, if he doesn't know the answer ask his rav etc.
>
> Kol Tuv,
> ~Liron Kopinsky

I must be slow. What exactly is the difference? Big -> Moshe, small -
judges. Hard -> Moshe, easy -> judges. What's the difference? Big =
hard, small = easy, no?

Same with Supreme Court. You start at the lower court, and if you
appeal then you go higher up (roughly equivalent to case where the rav
doesn't know the answer and you go up to next court; here, it is not
that the rav says he doesn't know, but you say he doesn't know;
different but roughly equivalent).

Mikha'el Makovi



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Message: 9
From: "Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:50:26 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Roast lamb (from areivim)


>Now, just curious, but what
> does Rav Kook say about this?  He was a vegetarian IIRC and even held that
> vegetarianism is a higher spiritual madreigah than carnivorism?  I think.
> Does it say anywhere that when Moshiach comes and the lion lies down with
> the lamb, that we will all go back to Edenic days and all stop eating meat?
> And then what will be with the Korban Pesach, or with all the other
> korbanos?

Rav Kook was not a strict vegetarian - he ate meat on Shabbat. The
Beit El yeshiva website, somewhere in its Q&A, has something on this.
Rav Kook says that vegetarianism is higher, but not yet - only for the
future - see Nechama Leibowitz's extensive quotations of Rav Kook in
her discussion of Devarim's permission to eat meat of desire. Also see
Rav Kook's Midbar Shur (also in Eng trans.) on the topic of offerings
in the future - I believe he says that only the mincha will be
brought, in keeping with what we say after the Amidah.

> This reminds me of another only slightly related question that I've had for
> a long time:  what was the point of Hevel being a shepherd, and also, what
> was the point of Hevel sacrificing animals to Hashem, if they weren't even
> allowed to slaughter animals [and/or weren't allowed to eat animals] until
> after the Mabul?

Well, apparently korbanot weren't yet prohibited. In fact, Ramban I
believe it was, objected to Rambam's ta'am for korbanot, by saying
that Hevel offered korbanot long before avodah zara was around; surely
if korbanot were an issur, this would prove nothing, for Hevel would
be a sinner one way or another in offering a korban, and Ramban would
only prove that korbanot are not idolatrous per se, but Rambam could
still say that korbanot are a throwback to sinful times, even if not
avodah zara per se.

Hevel might have been a shepherd for the milk and wool.

Mikha'el Makovi



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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:48:15 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Court System Models


On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 07:44:01PM +0200, Michael Makovi wrote:
: I must be slow. What exactly is the difference? Big -> Moshe, small -
: judges. Hard -> Moshe, easy -> judges. What's the difference? Big =
: hard, small = easy, no?

Deciding someone is a mamzeir is a big thing, as it impacts people's
lives until the end of time. The case could well be an easy question,
though.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha



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Message: 11
From: Gila Atwood <gila@atwood.co.il>
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:49:25 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] Malaachim and Brachot


re brochos of malaachim and related beings, I was discussing this with Akiva 
earlier today.  This reminded him of the struggle of Yaakov Avinu with the 
Sar of Esav and the subsequent request for a brocho and granting of it. I 
thought, good point, I'd throw it out to the group. Any thoughts?


>> Asking a friend to say tehillim for a sick person is clearly mutar. Praying to a demigod is not.

>>At what point does one make the transition to being like a friend and permissable to being like a demigod.

>> The friend has bechira.  An malach does not, and neither does a niftar.  A "demigod" is either a
 malach that someone is misidentifying or a non-existant entity, but  in either case it is being treated as if it has a bechira that it
does not.
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Message: 12
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:39:47 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] FW: The Gaon/Medicine


Here's the lightly edited response I got from R' HS's talmid on the
above

It wasn't his father it was his mother who didn't want him to be a
doctor.
This topic kvar dashu bey rabim as the ramban bferush says not to go
doctors.  It's a machlokes haposkim but most say that nowadays it's not
shayach,  but yes the gra got upset at his brother when he found out
that he went to a doctor.  
KT
Joel Rich



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Message: 13
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:45:17 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Roast lamb (from areivim)


T613K@aol.com wrote:
> From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
>  >>Also remember that the KP doesn't have to be a lamb.  It could be a kid.
> I've never had kid, and I'm sure RTK hasn't either, but perhaps she'd
> like it more than lamb.<<
>  
>  >>>>>
>  From what I hear, goat meat is very tough.

Kid meat might not be.  And even if it is tough, maybe it just has to
be roasted longer, but you might like the flavour.


> Any of you honchos out there ever eaten it?

Rashi says it tastes like venison, at least enough to fool Yitzchak
Avinu, and I have had venison once.  Didn't think that much of it.


> In any case I seriously don't think I could bring 
> myself to eat it.  What about tofu korban Pesach, any chance that will 
> be allowed in the Third BHM'K?

Sorry, no.

> That would be more my speed.  Now, just 
> curious, but what does Rav Kook say about this?  He was a vegetarian 
> IIRC

Nope.


> and even held that vegetarianism is a higher spiritual madreigah 
> than carnivorism?  I think.  Does it say anywhere that when Moshiach 
> comes and the lion lies down with the lamb, that we will all go back to 
> Edenic days and all stop eating meat?  And then what will be with the 
> Korban Pesach, or with all the other korbanos?

Hatorah hazot lo tehei muchlefet...

 
> This reminds me of another only slightly related question that I've had 
> for a long time:  what was the point of Hevel being a shepherd

Wool, milk.


> and 
> also, what was the point of Hevel sacrificing animals to Hashem, if they 
> weren't even allowed to slaughter animals [and/or weren't allowed to eat 
> animals] until after the Mabul?

Not sure what your point is.  They weren't allowed to eat meat, so he
wouldn't have brought a korban shlamim, but then a Ben Noach can only
bring an olah anyway.  And since it was an olah, his not being allowed
to eat it wasn't a problem.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas


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