Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 9

Mon, 07 Jan 2008

• 1. Re: Fasting on Yom Kippur (Gila Atwood)
• 2. BO "My Sin Is Not A Perfume" (Richard Wolberg)
• 3. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 4. Tamim Tihyeh (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 5. Re: "My Sin Is Not A Perfume" (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 6. Two dikduk questions (Zev Steinhardt)
• 7. Fasting on YK (Ilana Sober)
• 8. 15 different fruits on Tu B'shvat (Liron Kopinsky)
• 9. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 10. Re: Two dikduk questions (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] Is it... Galus (Moshe Feldman)
• 12. Re: [Areivim] Is it... Galus (Moshe Feldman)

  Subject: Re: [Avodah] Fasting on Yom Kippur


  TK typing in her sleep as usual wrote this:

  >>.... I didn't mean to imply that  
  there is a blanket heter for pregnant women to fast on Yom Kippur ...<<

  A gentle kibbitzer wrote to me off-list to ask,  >>Do you mean that in general, pregnant women are prohibited from fasting on YK? :)   <<

  Sigh.

  Please add the absolutely essential word NOT in your text, thus:

  There is no blanket heter for pregnant women NOT to fast on Yom Kippur.

  Thank you.

  Perhaps I posted this a few years ago but much time has passed and members have changed, and the subject has re-emerged. At any rate now seems a good time to tell how Rav Brandsdorfer shlita, Rav of Toldos Aharon, handled the situation. 

  I was pregnant with my first, twins, due at the end of Tishre.  Rav Brandsdorfer told us to first consult with our doctor concerning my needs.  My doctor said that I did not need to eat but should drink.  

  Based on this,  the Rav made the psak that I should drink less than shiurim of plain water over prescribed time intervals. I should rest the entire day and NOT wait till feeling unwell to start these shiurim.  I followed his instructions to the letter and Baruch Hashem had my babies on their due date ( 28th Tishre) with no complications, Baruch Hashem. 

  I generally fast well and have never had to do this any other Yom Kippur.  ( I had a birth on 8th of Cheshvan (big and late!) and others in Kislev and Shvat, those were the closest to YK) 
  The only other time over 12 years of childbearing and nursing I've had to break the fast was Tisha BeAv when I was nursing a baby seven months old. (supplemented)  It was 3 p.m. on a hot afternoon and I was starting to feel faint. Husband insisted I drink my fill right then. 

  (Ironically, when I googled Rav Brandsdorfer just now the first entry was from Avodah, and the second, the account of my first birth from my web pages) 





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The question was asked:
> [the difference between "chato-SI" (my sin) and "cho-TO-si"
> (I have sinned)]
I'm sorry, what has this got to do with perfume?

Answer: "My Sin" is a perfume and it was a play on words.


Zev Sero wrote:
This clergyman may be devout but he is not knowledgeable, and indeed  
it seems to me that
this borders on what both Xians and Jews would call heresy (seeing God  
and the "Devil" as having equal votes, ch"v).

I think that it is being taken too literally. If you substitute Yetzer  
Tov and Yetzer hara, then one could see how each is equal. In fact,  
sometimes the yetzer hara can even be stronger (and hence, have more  
of a vote) than the yetzer tov. But since YOU have the deciding vote,  
you can align with the yetzer tov (and with haShem). By saying this is  
heresy is missing the point.

ri

R' YGB:
You call that Chazal? I call that Tanach!

Be that as it may, that was because they were assumed not to be megayer
l'shma. Vohs hoht dohs tzu tohn miht uhnz?




Yes, I call that Chazal, too. 
In my experience speaking to Rabbanim who are/were Osek in Geirus (and I
invite the Rabbanim on-list to say their experiences) it is often very easy
to suspect a She'lo Lishma, even today. That apparently is one of the big
objections that some people have against the new group headed by R' Leib
Tropper which seeks to convert non-Jewish spouses of Jews. That said, I was
just bringing the Rambam as a data point, more than anything else. 

If it is a Chiyuv to be Mekabel Geirim, why did Shammai not have a bit more
patience with the prospective Ger? True, he may have been rude or uncouth,
but perhaps Shammai could have educated him?

KT,
MYG

Someone on Areivim wrote about a practice called "Blei Gissin." Apparently,
the practitioner pours molten lead into a bucket of water, and based on the
shapes that come out, both exorcises Ayin Hara and predicts the future. The
Ayin Hara part I can't think of a problem with, except possibly Gezeilah.
Isn't the predicting future part Assur, though, because of Tamim Tihyeh?
(According to the article linked on Areivim (http://tinyurl.com/2v3fsk):
"The storm is about to stop and soon the lights will go on.") 

KT,
MYG

R.Zev Sero wrote:
 
<The pasuk says "Esav is a brother to Yaacov [...] but I loved Yaacov
and hated Esav" (Malachi 1:2-3).  This shows that Hashem's choice of
Yaacov over Esav happened *before* there were any differences between
them, at a time when they were absolutely identical and there was no
basis at all for choosing one over the other.>   

      There is certainly nothing in the pasuk itself which "shows that Hashem's choice of Yaacov over Esav happened *before* there were any differences between them."  There is no mention at all as to the why; there is only the what.  Indeed, all the commentaries I have seen who discuss the issue say that the hatred to Esav was because of his actions, and the contrast is to show that the love for Yaakov was because of himself, not merely on account of his being zera Avaraham v'Yitzchak, since otherwise Esav, too, would have shared in that love, as he was equally their descendant.

     And why should the RShO hate Esav without a reason? V'chi leis din v'leis dayan?

EMT
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I had two dikduk questions on the recent parshiyos that we just lained,
 and I was hoping someone could explain these odd dikduk cases to me.

1.  As most of us know, if a word that ends with two segols (kesef,
 degel, eretz) is placed at the end of a word (or by an esnachta), the
 first segol is changed to a kamatz (kasef, dagel, aretz).  Yet, in Parshas
 Shmos, there is a word at the end of the parsha, teven (5:7, 10, 12,
 13) which is not changed even at the end of the parsha.  Is there some
 special reason that this word is not changed?

2.  As a general rule, whenever a letter is preceded by a heh hayediah
 (a heh that defines a definite article), the first letter of the word
 received a dagesh (unless, of course, the letter is one of the five that
 don't take a dagesh).  However, in Va'era, there is a word,
 hatzefardi'im (7:29, 8:1, 3, 4 5, 7, 8, 9), where the dagesh is missing from the
 tzadi.  Interestingly, it is present in the singular form of the word
 (hatz'fardeah - 8:2), but not in the plural.  Does anyone know why this
 is?

Zev Steinhardt
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As has already been noted, the questioner should mention (and the
posek should ask for) the exact medical requirement for fasting, i.e.,
risk factors beyond the simple fact of pregnancy.

The physician and the questioner should also be aware that fasting on
YK takes precedence over attending shul and even davenning. I remember
a Jewish-but-not-halachically-knowledgable doctor once told my husband
z"l not to fast on YK. When my husband asked for a more detailed
explanation of the risks, the doctor explained that fasting would not
be dangerous for him, but would certainly prevent him from going to
shul! (There were other years when fasting would have been dangerous
and he did eat on YK.)

AFAIK, if no one else is available, the husband should also stay home
and take care of his wife and/or kids if that will enable the wife to
fast.

- Ilana

From http://www.hillel.org/jewish/holidays/tubshevat/default

"...you will need to purchase both red and white wine and 15 different types
of fruits and nuts; five from each of the following three categories:

1) fruits or nuts with an inedible outer shell and an edible inner core:
pineapple, coconut, orange, pomello, banana, walnut, pecan, grapefruit,
starfruit, pinenut, pomegranate, papaya, brazil nut, pistachio, or almond.
(Note: purchase the whole fruit or nut so you can remove the outer shell
during the seder).

2) fruits with edible outer flesh and pithy, inedible cores: olive, date,
cherry, loquat, peach, apricot, jujub, persimmon, avocado. plum, or
hackberry. (Note: purchase the whole fruit so you can remove the pit or core
during the seder).

3) fruits which are edible throughout. Here no protective shells, neither
internal nor external are needed. The symbolic fruits may be eaten entirely
and include: strawberry, grape, raisin, fig, raspberry, blueberry,
cranberry, carob, apple, pear, kiwi or quince."
Does anyone know a source for needing 15 fruits specifically? Is it simply
15 = TU?
I have heard this idea for a few years but never heard of a source for it.

Kol Tuv,
~Liron
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R' Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
> I see no evidence from these sources for your position.
>   
You are making an assertion based upon your sevora. You haven't brought 
any sources that state what you seem to be such an obvious position.

>
>>  *Rashi[2] <#_ftn2>(Yevamos 47b): If he withdraws * - and doesn?t become 
>> a convert *Let him withdraw ? *and it is of no concern of ours.
>>
>>   
>>     
> That is because he clearly was not interested in the full scope of Judaism.
>   
How do you know that? The obvious meaning of Rashi is that we don't get 
excited about making converts and thus if a non-Jew loses interest it is 
of no concern to us. Maybe if he had been given some encouragement he 
would have realized that his objections were not significant. However 
Rashi is saying - I don't care if a non-Jew converts. Obviously once he 
converts the obligation of loving the ger becomes operative. Where do 
you see that it is desirable to increase the number of converts?

> It would be patently absurd for the Torah to command us so many times to 
> love geirim if we were not meant to facilitate the process. Chazal's 
> precautions require us to notify a potential Ger of the full extent of 
> his undertaking.
>
>   
Sources? So far you haven't offered a single one. We are to love them 
once they convert. Where does it say we should encourage or facilitate 
the conversion of non-Jews?

It is important to note that there is a conflation of two issues here. 
Accepting the convert and the historical, sociological and psychological 
reality that most of the time the convert  is not successful and is 
detrimental to the Jewish people.

On the one hand there is clearly an advantage to increase the ranks of 
those who truly serve G-d through Torah. However the statements I have 
cited deal with the reality that our Sages throughout the ages have 
experienced that  there is a significant downside to converting someone 
who is not the ideal - and that the typical convert is far from ideal. 
Thus we have gedolim such as the Achiezer and Rav Moshe Feinstein who 
say they have nothing to do with converting people because of the high 
failure rate.

Consequently on the ideal level I would agree with you. However on the 
day to day level of reality - most of the time the acceptance of geirim 
is in fact detrimental to the Jewish people. That is why various 
communities (e.g., Syrian) have banned the acceptance of geirim.

There is a parallel discussion in Chazal as to whether it is better to 
be born or not (Eiruvin 13b; Berachos 17a). For most people (and souls) 
the answer is no.

In sum, there is no chiyuv to faciliate the conversion of a non-Jew. 
Would appreciate sources - not servora - that says otherwise.


Daniel Eidensohn

On Sun, January 6, 2008 11:56 pm, Zev Steinhardt wrote:
: I had two dikduk questions on the recent parshiyos that we just
: lained, and I was hoping someone could explain these odd dikduk cases
: to me.

You might have better luck on a forum aimed at collecting diqduq
aficionados. I know of two:
1- Mesorah: Email mesorah-subscribe@aishdas.org to join,
mesorah@aishdas.org to post.
2- Leining: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Leining/

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

Here's a link to the tshuva from the Mishneh Halachos stating that the
3 shevu'os used to be in effect but are no longer in effect:
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/mishneHalakhos15:213.pdf

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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On Jan 7, 2008 10:29 AM, Moshe Feldman <moshe.feldman@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's a link to the tshuva from the Mishneh Halachos stating that the
> 3 shevu'os used to be in effect but are no longer in effect:
> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/mishneHalakhos15:213.pdf

Here's a summary: R. Menashe Klein, an Hungarian, wrote in Mishneh
Halachos chelek 15 siman 213 that he believes that R. Yonasan
Eibeshutz was correct when the latter wrote that the 3 shevuos were
binding and forbade us from going to EY, but nevertheless, Hashem in
bringing the Holocaust and causing the flowering of the community in
Israel has indicated to us that R. Y. Eibeshutz position is not
relevant to the current situation.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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