Avodah Mailing List
Volume 24: Number 72
Thu, 22 Nov 2007
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:29:58 EST
Subject: Re: [Avodah] proofs of G-d
RMC writes:
>>r Dessler in MM vol 4 (section on bechira) explains (based on a Ramban)
that sometimes HaShem will let a person be killed/etc or not be killed solely
based on the bechira of another.<<
>>>>>
Yet we still have a saying, "Der mentsch tracht und Gott lacht" (sorry if I
have mangled the Yiddish) -- "Man proposes, G-d disposes."
The victim in your scenario had a choice--bechira-- whether to go to minyan
or not (to give an example). He decided to go to minyan. But his bechira
was short-circuited by the actions of a mugger who killed him before he could
ever get to shul. Thus, in order for Hashem to let the killer exercise his
bechira in this instance, He had to take away the victim's bechira.
Obviously not even a supercomputer could be programmed to determine whether,
when, and why Hashem will let one person's bechira find expression in action
in the real world, while another person's bechira is not actualized. But I
believe -- and I know there are different opinions -- that Hashem exercises
constant hashgacha over each and every individual, moment by moment, and that
He has His reasons why He will sometimes protect people from harm, and at
other times not. In times of hester panim, His hashgacha /appears/ random and
removed.
--Toby Katz
=============
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Message: 2
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:34:59 EST
Subject: Re: [Avodah] proofs of G-d
I wrote >>In times of hester panim, His hashgacha /appears/ random and
removed.<<
and would just like to add:
That, BTW, is how I understand the Chazal, "Keivan shenitna reshus
lamechabel, eino mavchin bein tzaddik larasha" -- in times of war, or epidemic, many
good people will die who would not have died if there had not been a war or an
epidemic -- and from our human perspective, these deaths /appear/ random.
For the person to be saved in a time of war or epidemic would take more
"effort," so to speak, on Hashem's part--more Divine intervention--than in a time
of peace, and He will not necessarily protect everyone whose life is in
danger. So there are more deaths of good people, and they look random, but in
reality Hashem still exercised Hashgacha in each and every case--deciding whether
to shield this and that Ploni from harm, or not.
Segue to a slightly different point: every single Holocaust survivor I have
met--and of course I've met many--has amazing stories of Hashgacha Pratis,
how he came to be saved when others around him died. I know one lady who had
no fewer than seven "miracles" done for her during the war. I put "miracles"
in quotation marks because they happened through natural means, but yet were
so improbable that a believer has to see Yad Hashem--e.g., a Nazi soldier
walking right past her on a street after curfew (long story why she was out)
and just not seeing her.
--Toby Katz
=============
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Message: 3
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:57:26 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Apikores?
Ben Waxman wrote:
> How can someone who goes by Rov Rishonim be considered a heretic?
Because now we know better. Many rishonim lived before the discovery
of the Zohar, and all lived before the AriZal and the Baal Shem Tov,
so they were missing information. The AriZal was taught by Eliyahu
Hanavi, and the Baal Shem Tov by Achiyah Hashiloni, and therefore knew
things that had been completely forgotten in previous generations.
--
Zev Sero Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name interpretation of the Constitution.
- Clarence Thomas
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Message: 4
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:16:39 EST
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Gentlemen and Ladies; Who Goes First?
In a message dated 11/22/2007 9:29:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
meirabi@optusnet.com.au writes:
Rashi tells us that YaAkov would direct the males to go before the females,
unlike Esav who directed the females first.
Yet when YaAkov gets the family introduced to Uncle Esau, the ladies go
first until Yosef steps in front of his mother.
See Gur Aryei Al Asar, also Lkutei Sichos Vol. 30 Vayeitzei 3. why where
Rashi says this is different.
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
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Message: 5
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:34:06 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] proofs of G-d
R' Zev Sero wrote:
> I have heard from a reliable source, in the name of Dayan Abramsky,
> that "today, anyone who does not believe in the Baal Shem Tov's shita
> in hashgacha pratis [i.e. the one that the Chinuch rejected] is an
> apikores".
>
>
I find it strange that Rav Abramsky would assert that Rav Dessler was an
apikorus c.v. Rav Dessler based his views on the Seforno
*Seforno **[i]* <#_edn1>*(Vayikra 13:*47): When a person sins because he
follows his lusts and thus turns away from G?d?s will or he simply
rebels against G?d, he will be punished justly according to G?d?s
justice. When a person sins accidentally he will typically be punished
either financial or physically according to G?d?s wisdom in order to
arouse him repent. In contrast those who are as insensitive as one
asleep and thus have no realization of what is happening and are not
motivated to know?this includes all the nations as well as the majority
of Jews except for a few exceptions?they are without doubt under the
direction of nature or mazel. They do not receive hashgocha protis but
rather a general form of Providence which is for the species rather than
the individual. Thus they are like the animals and other forms of life
which does not have individual Providence. They thus fulfill G?d?s will
only on the level of the group not as individuals.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????
????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????
... ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???
????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????. ???? ??????? ??? ?? ????
??? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????????
????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???????
????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???
??????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????....
*Michtav M?Eliyahu**[i]* <#_edn1>*(2:75): */Hashgocha protis/
(individualized Providence) is only relevant for a person on the high
spiritual level of serving G?d without ulterior motivations. In other
words a person who?using his free will and deeds?reveals G?d?s glory in
this world. It is called /protis/ (individualized) because the
providence is personalized for each person according to his service of
G?d. That is why it is also referred to as /hashgocha ishis/ (personal
Providence) by the Rishonim. This process is carried out with great
precision according to the person?s deeds in order to give him the
necessary means to fulfill his service of G?d. There are also times when
G?d incapacitates him in order to cause him to contemplate and improve
his deeds. Our sages (Yevamos 121b) refer to this accuracy when they say
?G?d is very particular with His pious ones to the precision of a hair?s
breadth.? In contrast /hashgocha clallis *(*general Providence)/ is for
those who don?t serve G?d at all or serve Him in a mechanical fashion
without any inner awareness. Therefore their deeds do not reveal G?d?s
honor in a direct manner. These type of people function simply to
provide assistance to the true tzadik in his service of G?d. They
develop the physical aspects of the world to enable the tzadik to serve
G?d. Therefore what these people get in this world does not correspond
directly to their deeds. That is because their personal accomplishments
have no inherent value. They have merit only to the degree they assist
the tzadik. Consequently the Providence for them is not direct and that
is why it is referred to as /clallis (general)/. That is because it is
possible that the needs of the tzadik require that equal portions be
given to many people in spite of individual differences in their deeds.
This is the Providence that applies to the nations of the world as well
as all those Jews whose main occupation is developing this world. It
applies also to those who are occupied in Torah and mitzvos in a
superficial manner out of habit or for ulterior motivation?. In fact
those who slumber and are relatively insensitive to spiritual issues?
i.e., all non?Jews and most Jews?except for some exception?they are
without a doubt under the control of natural laws? This is no different
than the animals whose Providence is not for the individual but only for
the species?because it as a species they fulfill G?d?s will.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????"? ????. ???? ????
??????? ??????? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?????, ?????? ????? ????
???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ??????, ??"? ????? ?? ?????
?????, ??????? ????????. ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?????, ??? ?? ??
????? ??????? ?? ???????. ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????, ?? ???? ??? ??
?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??????. ??? ?? ???? [????? ???:]: "???"?
????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????". ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?' ???,
?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??????, ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?????
????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????
?????? ???: ????? ??????? ??? ????? "???" ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????
??? ???? ????? ?? ??????. ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???
?????? ??. ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????. ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????
?????. ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????, ?? ????
????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????????? ??????
??????. ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????
???? ??????? ???? ????? ???. ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????
??????????? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ???, ?? ??? ????....???? ???????
??? ??...??????? ???...??? ?? ??? ???"? ???? ????? ????????, ????? ????
?????, ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????...???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????
????? ??????? ??? ??????? ????, ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??'....
Daniel Eidensohn
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Message: 6
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:10:53 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Apikores?
> >Zev Sero replied:
> >I have heard from a reliable source, in the name of Dayan Abramsky,
> >that "today, anyone who does not believe in the Baal Shem Tov's shita
> >in hashgacha pratis [i.e. the one that the Chinuch rejected] is an
> >apikores".
Why is it so difficult for so many to believe in the concept of Hashgachah
Pratis (without getting into if it is correct according to the Mesorah or
not)? Is it because of conflicts with Bechirah?
KT,
MYG
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Message: 7
From: "Richard Wolberg" <cantorwolberg@cox.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:32:55 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] "Do the ends justify the means?"
R' Micha wrote:
But the difference between ends and means is codified in halakhah.
Mitzvah haba'ah ba'aveirah, in contrast to asei docheh lav -- ends do not
justify means.
Excellent point to which I agree; however, I was pointing out that there are
exceptions at which time I feel the "ends could justify the means." So I
would refine my original contention.
Kol tuv/Best regards.
ri
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Message: 8
From: JRich@Sibson.com
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:20:36 CST
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Apikores?
res?
Ben Waxman wrote:> How can someone who goes by Rov Rishonim be considered a heretic?
Because now we know better. Many rishonim lived before the discoveryof the Zohar, and all lived before the AriZal and the Baal Shem Tov,so they were missing information. The AriZal was taught by EliyahuHanavi, and the Baal Shem Tov by Achiyah Hashiloni, and therefore knewthings that had been completely forgotten in previous generations.
-- Zev Sero -------------------------Wow! What happened to the concept of mesora and lo bashamayim he? I thought that's why we were taught that the kabbala was hidden but transmitted ish mpi ish (truthfully I never understood this)
ktjoel rich
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Message: 9
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:03:05 EST
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Yeshivat Shem Vaever
>Last week we were looking at the nature of Yeshivat Shem vaEver. RRJ cited R
Kanievsky as saying they taught yir'as Shamayim.
The Rambam seems to turn the yeshivah into a Plato-like Academy of
philosophy -- a group of thinkers who came together to share thoughts,
debate, and hone their minds, or to listen to the more skilled do so.<
[--RMB]
>>
RSBA then asked:
>>Who were the other talmidim there?<<
>>>>>
They must have been goyim, since there weren't any Jews. They were probably
cousins of ours, descendants of Shem, although descendants of Cham and Yefes
could have been there too. They would have been tzaddikei umos ha'olam,
goyim who believed in one G-d and were moral, upright people.
--Toby Katz
=============
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:20:15 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] ***DHSPAM*** Re: proofs of G-d
On Thu, Nov 22, 2007 at 08:34:06PM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
: R' Zev Sero wrote:
: > I have heard from a reliable source, in the name of Dayan Abramsky,
: > that "today, anyone who does not believe in the Baal Shem Tov's shita
: > in hashgacha pratis [i.e. the one that the Chinuch rejected] is an
: > apikores".
: >
: >
:
: I find it strange that Rav Abramsky would assert that Rav Dessler was an
: apikorus c.v. Rav Dessler based his views on the Seforno
:
: *Seforno **[i]* <#_edn1>*(Vayikra 13:*47): When a person sins because he
: follows his lusts and thus turns away from G???d???s will or he simply
: rebels against G???d, he will be punished justly according to G???d???s
: justice. When a person sins accidentally he will typically be punished
: either financial or physically according to G???d???s wisdom in order to
: arouse him repent. In contrast those who are as insensitive as one
: asleep and thus have no realization of what is happening and are not
: motivated to know???this includes all the nations as well as the majority
: of Jews except for a few exceptions???they are without doubt under the
: direction of nature or mazel. They do not receive hashgocha protis but
: rather a general form of Providence which is for the species rather than
: the individual. Thus they are like the animals and other forms of life
: which does not have individual Providence. They thus fulfill G???d???s will
: only on the level of the group not as individuals.
:
:
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
: [i] <#_ednref1> *?????? (????? ??:??): ???* ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???
: ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????
: ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????
: ... ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???
: ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????. ???? ??????? ??? ?? ????
: ??? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????????
: ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???????
: ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???
: ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????....
:
:
:
: *Michtav M???Eliyahu**[i]* <#_edn1>*(2:75): */Hashgocha protis/
: (individualized Providence) is only relevant for a person on the high
: spiritual level of serving G???d without ulterior motivations. In other
: words a person who???using his free will and deeds???reveals G???d???s glory in
: this world. It is called /protis/ (individualized) because the
: providence is personalized for each person according to his service of
: G???d. That is why it is also referred to as /hashgocha ishis/ (personal
: Providence) by the Rishonim. This process is carried out with great
: precision according to the person???s deeds in order to give him the
: necessary means to fulfill his service of G???d. There are also times when
: G???d incapacitates him in order to cause him to contemplate and improve
: his deeds. Our sages (Yevamos 121b) refer to this accuracy when they say
: ???G???d is very particular with His pious ones to the precision of a hair???s
: breadth.??? In contrast /hashgocha clallis *(*general Providence)/ is for
: those who don???t serve G???d at all or serve Him in a mechanical fashion
: without any inner awareness. Therefore their deeds do not reveal G???d???s
: honor in a direct manner. These type of people function simply to
: provide assistance to the true tzadik in his service of G???d. They
: develop the physical aspects of the world to enable the tzadik to serve
: G???d. Therefore what these people get in this world does not correspond
: directly to their deeds. That is because their personal accomplishments
: have no inherent value. They have merit only to the degree they assist
: the tzadik. Consequently the Providence for them is not direct and that
: is why it is referred to as /clallis (general)/. That is because it is
: possible that the needs of the tzadik require that equal portions be
: given to many people in spite of individual differences in their deeds.
: This is the Providence that applies to the nations of the world as well
: as all those Jews whose main occupation is developing this world. It
: applies also to those who are occupied in Torah and mitzvos in a
: superficial manner out of habit or for ulterior motivation???. In fact
: those who slumber and are relatively insensitive to spiritual issues???
: i.e., all non???Jews and most Jews???except for some exception???they are
: without a doubt under the control of natural laws??? This is no different
: than the animals whose Providence is not for the individual but only for
: the species???because it as a species they fulfill G???d???s will.
:
:
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
: [i] <#_ednref1> *???? ?????? (?:??): ????? ????? ?????? *- ...??????
: ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????"? ????. ???? ????
: ??????? ??????? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?????, ?????? ????? ????
: ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ??????, ??"? ????? ?? ?????
: ?????, ??????? ????????. ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?????, ??? ?? ??
: ????? ??????? ?? ???????. ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????, ?? ???? ??? ??
: ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??????. ??? ?? ???? [????? ???:]: "???"?
: ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????". ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?' ???,
: ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??????, ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?????
: ????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????
: ?????? ???: ????? ??????? ??? ????? "???" ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????
: ??? ???? ????? ?? ??????. ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???
: ?????? ??. ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????. ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????
: ?????. ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????, ?? ????
: ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????????? ??????
: ??????. ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????
: ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???. ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????
: ????????????? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ???, ?? ??? ????....???? ???????
: ??? ??...??????? ???...??? ?? ??? ???"? ???? ????? ????????, ????? ????
: ?????, ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????...???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????
: ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ????, ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??'....
:
:
: Daniel Eidensohn
: _______________________________________________
: Avodah mailing list
: Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
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Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
micha@aishdas.org this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507 "mensch"! -Rabbi Israel Salanter
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