Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 57

Fri, 16 Nov 2007

• 1. Re: Lifnei iver (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Vayeitze: "Are You Sleeping or Are You Dreaming?" (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Eilu v'eilu (Zev Sero)
• 4. Eilu v'eilu (Richard Wolberg)
• 5. Re: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 6. Mindfulness and Being Present in the Moment (Boruch Horowitz)
• 7. Mindfulness... (Allen Gerstl)
• 8. A few notes on Parshas Vayetzei (SBA Gmail)
• 9. Re: dancing - correction (Aryeh Herzig)
• 10. Re: Mindfulness... (Yonatan Kaganoff)

On Tue, November 13, 2007 12:00 pm, R Michael Elzufon wrote:
: RMK wrote:
:> "Amar Rav yehuda amar Rav: Kol mi sheyesh lo ma'os umalveh osan shelo
:> b'edim oveir mishum v'lifnei iver lo sitein michsol, v'reish lakish
omer
:> gorem klalah l'atzmo."  In this case, the gemara also refers to it as
:> lifnei iver, even though there is clearly no transgression taking
place
:> except in the unlikely circumstance that the loveh is kofeir. This is
:> most definitely not an issur of lifnei iveir.  It is at most a
:> gezeirah/takanah...

: [[MJE]] In Moed Katan, shamta (a form of herem) is suggested for the
: offender.  That does not sound like a middath hasiduth.

Does lifnei iveir apply to causing someone to do an aveirah, or to
making it likely a person does one? If the latter, then we would need
to know how much more likely need it be in order to be violating
lifnei iveir?

It seems to me that's the probability threshold being discussed. Not
our original discussion of the threshold of probability before making
a taqanah. I would think the latter involves things like the severity
of the issur, so that for carrying on Shabbos, even the unlikely
shofar carrier can cause a motivation strong enough to call for a
sheiv ve'al ta'aseh of an asei deOraisa.

But in either case, I see no reason to assume that statistics means
taqanah and if not, the two "shiurim" of probability aren't
necessarily related.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

Cantor Wolberg writes:
: So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke "from his sleep" which is
: redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There
: is should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You
: might say that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he
: slept....

Not really. His "dream" was an altered state of awareness called
nevu'ah. I have no idea if non-Moshe nevi'im necessarily slept to get
their nevu'ah. According to everyone but the Rambam (and his maqor),
certainly not -- Avraham chats with the A-lmighty while waiting for
guests and he sees them arrive without them coming to wake him.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

Micha Berger wrote:

> Except I wouldn't include of vechalav. That wasn't a matter of pesaq,
> but of making a takanah. The difference in practice wasn't a machloqes
> about preexisting din, but that there was a delay in it being
> nispasheit through the qehillos of the Galil. (The similarity is that
> this too is about chakhamim constructing, not interpreting, the law.)

Actually it is a machlokes.  Or at least, it's a machlokes whether
there's a machlokes.

Tosfos (Chulin 113a dh "besar behema") says that only R Akiva and
R Yose Haglili hold that it's mutar mid'oraisa.  The Rabbanan hold
that it's assur mid'oraisa, and therefore there's no need for a takana;
and Tosfos holds that the halacha is like them.

According to this Tosfos, R Akiva is the only one who claims there
was a takana d'rabanan against off bechalav; RYhG holds, and paskened
in his area, that there never was any such takana.  So it's not that
the takana didn't spread, it's that RYhG agreed with the majority that
it never existed, but disagreed with the majority that it's assur
mid'oraisa.

Now we don't pasken like this Tosfos; I'm not sure whether that means
we hold that the Tana Kama agrees with R Akiva, or that we just pasken
like R Akiva against the Tana Kama.  But a machlokes definitely exists.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Reb Micha wrote:

Halakhah is not to be dictated from above, but to be worked by man according
to His rules.

 

This may be just semantics but I disagree and feel Halakhah is most
certainly dictated from above. Are you saying that the aseres hadibros were
not dictated from above? Are you saying that the prohibition of shaatnez was
not dictated from above? (And I can go on and on and on)... Yes, I agree
that man interprets, but the Torah which is the source has been dictated
from above. Hence, the statement that halacha is not to be dictated from
above is not accurate in my understanding.

 

Reb Micha wrote regarding Rosh Chodesh: "but it's not the testimony or the
moon which causes it to happen, it's the declaration."

 

Isn't the Luach comparable to a declaration albeit in advance?

 

Finally: "Why do you assume halakhah is supposed to be objective?"

 

For the same reason we have absolute versus relative morality.... I see
subjective halacha as relative. Again, this may be a semantic argument.

 

Kol tuv/best regards.

ri

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R"n Toby Katz (or possibly someone else; I can't follow some of the quoting conventions which some people use) wrote:
> "Taryag mitzvos shomarti" is shverr even without Yakov marrying
> two sisters. NO ONE can do all 613 -- unless you are a man, a
> woman, a kohen, a levi, a Yisrael, a king, a judge, a witness,
> the brother in law of a childless widow, and so on, all at the
> same time.

R"SBA disagreed:
> I disagree. Most mitzvos can be fulfilled via Yidden being
> areivim zeh lezeh etc etc. But when one has been oyver a lav -
> there is no way that he can claim to have observed the taryag
> mitzvos.

I disagree with RSBA's logic. You can't take one without the other. If we want the zechus of mitzvos done by unknown areivim, then we also have to accept responsibility for the aveiros done by unknown areivim.

For example, I am not personally aware of anyone who has performed chalitzah or testified to beis din. If I want to use "areivim zeh lazeh" so that their actions count towards me being "shomer taryag", then I also have to use "areivim zeh lazeh" so that the actions of a mechalel Shabbos prevent me from being a "shomer taryag".

Akiva Miller

"One could argue that there are many tzaddikim and talmidai chachamim,  living and deceased, who are Mindful. But, I don't think that that is proof that being Mindful is a Jewish value or that Judaism encourages  cultivating Mindfulness".
   
  Interesting question. Perhaps it's a hechsher, and a means of actualizing  other Jewish values. Mindfullness can be used, for example, as a tool for concentration in tefilah. See this essay, especially at the beginning of Chapter 3. 
   
  http://www.torahlearningcenter.com/hotcoals.php

       
---------------------------------
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On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:48:37 -0800 (PST)
R' Yonatan Kaganoff 
Wrote: Subject: [Avodah] Mindfulness and Being Present in the Moment

>I was talking to my wife the other week about the following question
>and wanted to ask the members of the list if they had any ideas about
>it.

>Are Mindfulness or "Being Present in the Moment" Jewish values?

I don't quite understand how this enhances certain Jewish values of kavod ha-beriot etc.
My impression is that this concept is closely connected with meditative techniques and self-contemplation.  But if someone is busy thinking about his/her own inner state how would this enhance listening to what others are saying?  

I have read that that  it might be useful as a therapeutic method when dealing with certain pschological problems but that's another matter entirely.

KT
Eliyahu

A few points to ponder and questions on the parsha.

Comments very welcome



28:12 - Baal Haturim has very fascinating (chassidish?) pshat dh: Sulam

(the 2nd and 3rd). Ayin shom a few interesting ladder ideas.



-



28:19 ? Luz.

The Midrash 69:8 says that the Malach Hamoves had no power in the city of
Luz. So what happened to the senior citizens who were well past their use-by
dates?



Simple.  They were placed outside the walls of the city ? where they died.

(Sounds a bit like the Eskimo solution..)



Would this be the first published example of institutionalized euthanasia?



--



28:20 Baal HaTurim quotes a Yalkut Shimoni that the malach that battled
Yaakov (next week's parsha) was Michoel!



The YS adds that the RBSO - kaveyochol - said to him - sarcastically - "You
REALLY did nice - making my Kohen Gadol (i.e Yaakov) a baal mum..."

Even stranger is the continuation of that Midrash saying that Michoel's
punishment was that he had to become the Kohen Gadol in heaven !



This is all pretty puzzling stuff as for what reason would Michoel have
battled with Yaakov Avinu?

(Although if it was Michoel - it makes sense why Yaakov Avinu demanded a
brocho from the malach before letting him go, which is harder to understand
when learning that story according to Rashi that the usual of that malach
was the Samech Mem - saroy shel Esav.)



-



29:11 - Vayishak Yaakov leRochel.  2 pesukim later re Lavan kissing Yaakov
"Veynashek Lo".



Is there any difference between 'vayishak' and 'vaynashek'?



---



29:32 - Rashi dh Vatikra shemo Reuven - 'Omro re'u ma bein beni leben
chami...'



The first obvious question is, the Torah gives a clear reason why Leah
called him Reuven - 'ki ro'o Hashem be'onyi', so why is Rashi giving a
different reason - which is also difficult to understand as Yosef, who is a
main feature of this - was yet to be born...



Also, reading Rashi, one could ask was the matter of the bechoreh the ONLY
or most important difference between Reuven and the rasha Esav!?



To those of you for whom these questions may cause sleeplessness, may I
suggest that they look up the source of this Rashi - Brochos 7b.

There the gemoro elaborates on the explanation of the bechoreh.



Re the second question, see the Maharsho (chidushei Agados) and the peirush
'Hakosev' on Ein Yaakov - a beautiful piece talking about 'shmo goram' and
which IMHO inadvertently brings a raya from the Torah itself on what is
commonly mentioned that a father has a cetain Ruach hakodesh when naming his
child.

(And as he also explains the name of Ruth, it may seem that even her father
the Moabite - also may have had some degree of nevuah when naming her !



--



30-8 Naftulei Elokim Niftalti - Rashi mention sthat Unkelos teitches it
miloshon Tefila.



I see that the Ikkar Sifsei Chachomim explains that we swap around the
letters and place the tav before the pei - as in the word tefila.



But what I learned from this (by trying to check up what the
'full-flavoured' Sifsie Chachomim has to say about this - and finding noth
at all) is that the ISCh is lav davka a kitzur form of the SCh and is in
fact a separate sefer.



Does anyone know who the mechaber of this work was?



---



30:27 Rashi dh Nichashti says that the proof that Lavan had no sons until
Yaakov arrived was the fact that he sent Rochel to the well with his sheep,

Something he would not have done had he any sons.



But we see that his father Besuel who did have a son - Lavan - still sent
his sister Rivka to do the same thing...?



---





---



31:34 - Am I understanding it correctly that Rochel was sitting on her
cvamel INSIDE the tent? And if so, was/is this the done thing - having
camels in the tent that you live?


SBA
sba@sba2.com
sbasba@gmail.com
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I wrote Tu BShvat.  Should have been Tu BAv
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If one is fully present and aware when speaking to someone, then they can listen with all their facilities and awareness to what the other person is saying, explicitly and implicitly, and to give that person all of their attention.  
   
  One of the criticisms/sterotypes of neurotic Jews is their inability to just be present and mindful in the moment.
   
  I neglected to mention that one Jewish proponet of these idea is Martin Buber.  However, despite his attempt to base all of his ideas on Chassidic sources, they come more from his earlier fascination with Eastern mysticism then Eastern European Chassidut.

Allen Gerstl <acgerstl@hotmail.com> wrote:
  


On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:48:37 -0800 (PST)
R' Yonatan Kaganoff 
Wrote: Subject: [Avodah] Mindfulness and Being Present in the Moment

>I was talking to my wife the other week about the following question
>and wanted to ask the members of the list if they had any ideas about
>it.

>Are Mindfulness or "Being Present in the Moment" Jewish values?

I don't quite understand how this enhances certain Jewish values of kavod ha-beriot etc.
My impression is that this concept is closely connected with meditative techniques and self-contemplation. But if someone is busy thinking about his/her own inner state how would this enhance listening to what others are saying? 

I have read that that it might be useful as a therapeutic method when dealing with certain pschological problems but that's another matter entirely.

KT
Eliyahu

       
---------------------------------
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