Avodah Mailing List

Volume 12 : Number 060

Monday, December 22 2003

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:48:48 +0000
From: efremp@att.net
Subject:
chanukah and trvelling by plane overnight


Does anyone know the halacha of what to if you are travelling on a plane to 
Israel.  We (My wife, son, and I) have to be at the airport before shkiya and 
will not get of the plane till it is morning.  What do we do for chanukah 
licht?

Efrem


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:49:18 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Chanukah Lights and Late Work


On 18 Dec 2003 at 10:22, gil@aishdas.org wrote:
> Zev Sero wrote:
>> What I have taken to doing, with the approval
>> of my father, is to light at work, with a
>> bracha, which achieves pirsumei nissa, and then
>> when I get home I light again without a bracha.

> Is your father a rav? If not, I would suggest asking one because I can't
> think of any reason why that would be not be a berachah le-vatalah.

Why would that be a bracha l'vatala if there are Jews around who will 
see the Menorah and therefore there is a kiyum of pirsumei nissa? 

> Why would there be any inyan of lighting at the wedding? If there
> are guests who are not sleeping at their own homes then you might say
> makom pito goreim and they should light where they eat. But, otherwise,
> I can't see any reason for anyone to light at the wedding.

Do you light in shul? Do you make a bracha? Do you sleep in the shul?
I assume the answers are yes and yes (although maybe not you specifically,
but it is likely that someone does so in your shul) and no. Why is that
different from a wedding? (Aside from the fact that there is a minhag
to light in shul, but we generally don't make a bracha on minhagim -
cf. Arava).

-- Carl


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 04:10:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Chanukah Lights and Late Work


gil@aishdas.org wrote:
> Why would there be any inyan of lighting at the wedding? If there
> are guests who are not sleeping at their own homes then you might say
> makom pito goreim and they should light where they eat. But, otherwise,
> I can't see any reason for anyone to light at the wedding.

Pisumei Nissa.

If the wedding is at a hotel where the hosts are staying then there
is absolutely no Shaila about a Bracha. But even in a wedding hall
there is the inyan of Pirsumei Nissa and... IIRC,if there is no other
opportunity for an individual to light he may make the second Bracha
of She'Assah Nissim even upon seeing a lit Menorah anywhere.

HM


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:38:40 -0600 (CST)
From: gil@aishdas.org
Subject:
Re: Chanukah Lights and Late Work


Carl Sherer wrote:
> Why would that be a bracha l'vatala if there are Jews
> around who will see the Menorah and therefore there
> is a kiyum of pirsumei nissa?

The chiyuv is not pirsumei nissa. The chiyuv is lighting candles in a
*bayis*. The reason for this chiyuv is pirsumei nissa. Do you walk around
town all evening with a menorah in your hands? No!

> Do you light in shul? Do you make a bracha?

We only light in shul because it is a minhag, and that is why we make the
berachah. The Rama says explicitly that no one is yotzei with the candles
in the shul. See SA, OC 671:7 and MB 44.

Gil Student
gil@aishdas.org
www.aishdas.org/student


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:19:48 +0200
From: "Akiva Blum" <ydamyb@actcom.net.il>
Subject:
Re: Chanukah Lights and Late Work


>> He called the practice of lighting at the wedding a joke (ElY, SA OC
>> 677 n. 590).

> Presumably he agrees that *someone* should light at the wedding, and
> is talking about the idea of all the guests lighting, but still, why is
> that a joke?  Even if he holds that they must light again when they get
> home, doesn't lighting at the wedding achieve pirsumei nissa?

If no-one has a chiyuv to light at the wedding and it's no ones house,
then there's no PN.

Is there PN by lighting a menora in the middle of the street where
everyone can see? Is there PN by placing a menora on the top of your car?

No!

PN only exists within the parameters that chazal set for the kiyum mitzva.

Everything else may or may not be a good idea, or simply a joke.

Akiva B.


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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:13:59 EST
From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Hallel on different occasions


RHS in his weekly shiur related that last Sunday that he was in LA for an
OU weekend and that the shul that he davened in spontaneously said Hallel
without a bracha upon learning of the arrest of Saddam Hussein. ( IIRC,
in Halichos Shlomoh, RSZA is cited as having said Hallel during the Six
Day War upon learning of the victories in Yerushalayim.) RHS pointed
out that Hallel is defined in several different contexts:

1) Simchas Yom Tov
2) Bshas HaNes
3) Lzecher Hanes
4) Lcol yshusa stvavo al hatzibur

The Ramban in the Hasagos on the Sefer HaMitzvos, the Ran in Pesachim
(Perek Arvei Pesachim), the Chasam Sofer and the Netzviv, among others
discuss this issue extensively.

Steve Brizel
Zeliglaw@aol.com


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:39:07 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Standing/sitting for the chupah


On 18 Dec 2003 at 7:52, Harry Maryles wrote:
> Even though it may be brought down in Halacha Seforim as mentioned by
> some in this thread, but I doubt it is Halacha L'Maasah. How else could
> the RYs and RKs sit? 

That's exactly what I was trying to find out. R. Weiss in his shiur tried
to be m'lamed zchus by distinguishing between being a melech and being
domeh l'melech. But he seemed to think that l'chatchila one should stand.

> I have no problem when anyone wants to take on a personal Chumra, as
> long as it doesn't impinge on someone else's rights. But when a given
> host provides ample seating so that the Chupa can be more orderly and
> when an announcement is made for everyone to be seated, THIS personal
> Chumra impinges on someone else. 

It doesn't have to. They can stand at their places - they don't have to
stand in the aisles or crowd around the chupa.

I also question whether one can properly classify something as a
"personal chumra" where (based on things we have heard on this list),
it appears to be the minhag everywhere in the world outside North America.

-- Carl


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:14:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Standing/sitting for the chupah


Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il> wrote:
> On 18 Dec 2003 at 7:52, Harry Maryles wrote:
>> Even though it may be brought down in Halacha Seforim as mentioned by
>> some in this thread, but I doubt it is Halacha L'Maasah. How else could
>> the RYs and RKs sit? 

> That's exactly what I was trying to find out. R. Weiss in his shiur
> tried to be m'lamed zchus by distinguishing between being a melech 
> and being domeh l'melech. But he seemed to think that l'chatchila one 
> should stand. 

I'm not sure whether anyone mentioned this perspective but I seem to
recall that the reason to stand is because of the requirement that Nissuin
take place in front of a minyan. ...and anything that requires a minyan
is a davar Shebekedusha which requires standing.. Borchu, Kaddish,
Kedusha, Chazaras HaShatz, Kriyas Hatorah, all require a minyan and we
therefore stand. But as I said this cannot be Halacha L'Maaseh. I do not
recall why the above perspective isn't, applied to SB of Nissuin though.

>> I have no problem when anyone wants to take on a personal Chumra, as
>> long as it doesn't impinge on someone else's rights. But when a given
>> host provides ample seating so that the Chupa can be more orderly and
>> when an announcement is made for everyone to be seated, THIS personal
>> Chumra impinges on someone else. 

> It doesn't have to. They can stand at their places - they don't have 
> to stand in the aisles or crowd around the chupa.

That would impinge on the rights of the people behind the "stander"
whose view would be blocked unless they too stand.

> I also question whether one can properly classify something as a 
> "personal chumra" where (based on things we have heard on this list), 
> it appears to be the minhag everywhere in the world outside North America. 

If the Minhag HaMakom is almost universally to sit, then the Poretz
Geder is the one who stands, IMHO.

HM


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:02:49 +0200
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@bezeqint.net>
Subject:
RE: End Slice of Challah


From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
> From: "Rena Freedenberg" free@actcom.co.il
>> The funny thing is that one of my sons [don't remember which] said
>> that they learned that eating the ends of the challa is a segula
>> for pregnancy.
[del]
> We still didn't explain segulos to my satisfaction. After all, someone
> getting something they want or don't want for reasons other than
> sechar va'onesh is only yet another factor getting in the way of
> hashgachah....

My husband makes a point of always eating the end of the Chalah, so I
asked him about it. He said that it is an ancient custom, that as far
as he knows, the source is Zohar.

The custom is based on the idea that the end of the Chalah is the Ikkar
Beracha.

So, in this case, it's not that it is a segula, but rather a sort of
"Mehadrin".

Shoshana L. Boublil


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 03:38:31 EST
From: JoshHoff@aol.com
Subject:
techumim above ten


There is a discussion in the gemara about whether there is a din of
techumim above 10 tephachim in regard to a boat, depending on whether we
say the water is ke-ar'ah semichta -- an extension of the earth. However
in regard to a train there is no question that it is connected to the
ground and therefore the height doesn't matter and techumim certainly
apply. Rav Ahron Soloveichik z'l once mentioned that when he was a child
in Poland he saw an anti-semitic cartoon, or statement claiming that
Jews cheat by sitting on the train on Shabbos but putting their feet in
a bucket of water and saying they are traveling in the water. Rav Ahron
also said that he was once asked, back in the 1950s, by a student at JTS
if on a trip to Europe they could board a train in Munich on Friday and
continue traveling through Shabbos to another city. He told the student
no, and R.Ahron was contacted by the student's teacher, who asked why it
is assur. R.Ahron told him, because of techumim, which had not occurred
to the teacher.


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:49:18 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Driving on Shabbos in Lakewood?


On 18 Dec 2003 at 8:56, Yosef Gavriel & Shoshanah M.  wrote:
> One may not leave the makom mukaf mechitzos in which one
> finds oneself (i.e., as RHM stated, the airport if it is mukaf, as they
> generally are, or, as RCS stated, the plane, if the airport is not mukaf.

Even if the airport is mukaf, wouldn't the plane be cholek a separate
r'shus for itself? Or would we regard it as one r'shus because of (and
assuming there is) a jetway, even if that jetway is not hooked up to
the plane until after Shabbos starts?

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much. 


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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:48:22 -0500
From: "Yosef Gavriel & Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <rygb@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: Driving on Shabbos in Lakewood?


At 05:49 AM 12/19/2003, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
> Even if the airport is mukaf, wouldn't the plane be cholek a separate
> r'shus for itself? Or would we regard it as one r'shus because of
>(and assuming there is) a jetway, even if that jetway is not hooked
> up to the plane until after Shabbos starts?

See MB 404:15 and 405:22.

YGB 


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:08:53 -0500 (EST)
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Admin: Massive changes to Areivim


This was originally sent to Areivim. However, since part of the reason
for the change is to re-attract many Avodah memebers who left Areivim
as it was, I'm re-posting here.




We are implementing a new membership agreement for Areivim. For details,
see the new agreement at <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/agree.html>.

The big change is that Areivim is now fully moderated. During the course
of Areivim since its creation we have failed at creating a productive
unmoderated forum that crosses a wide spectrum of Orthodox Jews who
don't know eachother. Apparently, we do not know how to do it.

Smaller changes include clearer rules about what sort of politic ought
to be excluded, the line between disagreement and insult that may not
be crossed, the banning of stereotypes. There are also guidelines about
a posts's length -- the discouragement of undo quoting, the use of URL
and teaser rather than reprinting a web page, and the like.

On the one hand, we know will slow down and somewhat stifle areivim --
which I actually consider a good thing. Too many posts are done too
thoughtlessly. The volume on Areivim has made following it a full time
job, and that too is a bitul zeman. It's not in line with my priorities
to invest time and money running a chatroom. If someone would like to
run an email list like the old Areivim, I can point you to instructions
on how to get one started on a free serverr (eg yahoogroups).

More importantly, it will reduce the amount of chilul halashon, sin'ah
and other issurim sitting on my "account book".

OTOH, there are conversations that in the past were cut off preemptively,
since we couldn't see how it could go anywhere but down. Or posts that
failed the guidelines that we chose not to moderate because the writer
deserved to rebut an unmoderated post. This change will allow us to
implement the rules more evenly, and also have more precise control.

But it also means increasing the moderation burden. Making the current
staffing insufficient.

So, we drafted R' Akiva Atwood to the moderation team. He's not on yet,
as I have to show him the tools, but iy"h very soon. That brings its
membership to Akiva, Gershon, Gil, R' Mandel and Sholom. I hope the LW/RW
balance as well as the relative fairness of those people meets everyone's
approal. I'm not a moderator, but I do participate in the discussions
about questionable cases. (And am busy keeping the mechanics going.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
micha@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (413) 403-9905


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