Avodah Mailing List

Volume 11 : Number 050

Friday, August 8 2003

• FW: [Areivim] History of knowing the molad
• RE: [Areivim] History of knowing the molad
• Re: TIDE cont'd
• Re: mussar vs psak
• Re: destruction of the Temple
• re: Rav YE Henkin z"l
• Re: History of knowing the molad
• molad
• Re: molad
• kabel b'rachamim
• minhag ashkenaz
• Re: TuM and TIDE
• Re: mturgman
• Re: TIDE
• For the German Jew, TIDE was more than a way of life
• re: TIDE
• Re: TIDE
• Re: Ahavas Chinam?

> : 2) Something that is indeed in the Torah, but which the non-Jews of that
> : time knew also (such as the length of the lunar month), or:
>
> How precisely did they know the average length of the lunar month?

from http://www.specialtyinterests.net/eclipse.html

Meton 29.531915 solar days
Callippus 29.530851
Hipparchus 29.530581
(correct figure - 29.530588)

Akiva

>> : 2) Something that is indeed in the Torah, but which the non-Jews of that
>> : time knew also (such as the length of the lunar month), or:
>>
>> How precisely did they know the average length of the lunar month?
>
> from http://www.specialtyinterests.net/eclipse.html

My question was whether they could have known it to the nearest cheileq.
To translate:

> Meton 29.531915 solar days
= 29 days, 12 hours, 827.2368 chalaqim

> Callippus 29.530851
= 29 days, 12 hours, 799.65792 chalaqim

> Hipparchus 29.530581
= 29 days, 12 hours, 792.65952

> (correct figure - 29.530588)
= 29 days, 12 hours, 792.84096

And our molad is 29 days, 12 hours, 793 chalaqim. Hipparchus's estimate
was accurate, to the necessary precision. But it was arguably after ours,
even without taking halachah leMosheh miSinai literally. Sefer haIbburim
assumes he learned of our estimate.

In Rosh Hashanah 25a, Rabban Gamliel gives the value for the molad besheim
his grandfather. So it was in use already within a century of Hipparchus
(who died around 125bce or so). Although that doesn't prove we have it
first, it makes it very plausible.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
micha@aishdas.org            and her return will be through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (413) 403-9905

I wanted to discuss the Frnkel Pamphlets several months ago but I
hesiatated to get invovled in some stuff that might include LH etc.

BEH, I will give this a more elaborate treament.

I agree with Danny's concerns that TIDE is dormant if not outright niftar
in the current community. I only agree lukewarmly with his solutions

The #1 point of TIDE that I feel is missing is a more holistic approach
to Torah. I'm not talking so much about Shakespears or Schopenhauer,
I'm talking learning classical German strongpoints- namely:
Dikduk
LIturgy - piyyutimg
neginnos/trope/leining
MInhaggim - such as the writings of the Maharil
Philosophy - such as Kuzari
Tanach with meforshim such as ibn Ezra, Redak etc.

IOW, the biggest "chaval" I would say that happened in the Breuer
learning style is that they 99% abaonded the classic Yekkishe niche
in favor of being just another comletely Talmudic-cntric institution,
and not even a premier one at that.

I think the Torah world needs sefarim like Rav Hamburgers about the
history of minhaggim and has a feel for the language of Tanach the way
both Rashi and Hirsch did. Also Yekkes were traditionally expers in
things like kevias hachodesh, (Rav Heinmann, Professor Arthur Spier and
Yisroel/Sydney Strauss come to mind)

We don't need another kollel doing a hundred blatt a year when there
is a vacuum in the limuddim that made Hirsch and others so vital ot the
Torah mix.

'nuff for now, easy fast to all

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe
<RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>
The above post is dedicate to the Memory of My Mom 
Gertrude Wolpoe OBM, Gittel Bas Nachum Mendel Halevi A"H

In a message dated 8/5/2003 3:48:38 PM EDT, akiva@atwood.co.il writes:
> When a Gadol gives mussar, quite often he phrases it in terms of psak
> (i.e. "It's assur to do X").
> When should one take that as a psak? Always? Sometimes? Never?

This has been a pet peever of mine
I have asserted on this list that the line between psak and mussar whould
be more defeinite. One of the trendsetter s in blurring this distinction
imho is the MB. The MB has many defenders. I respect the Chofetz Chayyimn
personally and I think the MB is an indispensable sefer, nowaday,s but
I think this started a trend of moving away from hard-head analysis to
more soft {bleeding heart???} approach to halachah.

Look, mussar is important just as is aggedita, but it needs a certain
disciplined approach.

The old-style Litvisher school is unfortunately a mere memory nowadays....

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe
<RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>
The above post is dedicate to the Memory of My Mom 
Gertrude Wolpoe OBM, Gittel Bas Nachum Mendel Halevi A"H

In a message dated 8/1/2003 2:25:58 PM EDT, turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:
> Re the gemara in Gittin does anyone have any idea of the historical
> background of the story?

Dr. Miram Klein Shpairo led a workshop on this suga about 2 years ago
or so.

One of the questions she asked was "who was to blame for the churban?"
EG the zealots, the Romans, Bar Kamtza etc.

We split into gorups. We reconvened and altogether we saw plenty of
blame in EACH protagonist in the story.

In fact this aggedita is pure genius in that it really does not take
any side, and is brilliant in how it gives potneetial mussar for each
player in the story.

L'havdil Shakespear'es Montagues and Capulets share the blame for the
local animosity but the local prince can rise above it and say "A plague
on both your houses." In the gmara in Gittin NO ONE is exempted.

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe
<RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>
The above post is dedicate to the Memory of My Mom 
Gertrude Wolpoe OBM, Gittel Bas Nachum Mendel Halevi A"H

Thirtieth Yahrzeit of the Gaon
R. Yosef Eliyahu Henkin zatzal
by Rabbi Yehuda Henkin


R. Yosef Eliyahu Henkin z"l died peacefully after Musaf on Shabbat
Nachamu, 13 Av 5733 (1973), in his apartment in New York's Lower East
Side which also served as a synagogue in his last years. He was 92. For
many years he was a supreme Halachic authority in America, recognized
worldwide as one of the gaonim and tzadikim of the generation. His
funeral was relatively modest and some twenty or thirty thousand people
attended. In Av/August the yeshivas are empty and faculty, students,
and many others are out of town, often in the mountains. R. Moshe
Feinstein, R. Yaakov Kaminetzky and other Torah Sages z"l delivered
eulogies. However, few were able to return to the city during the week
of mourning to comfort the family.


R. Yosef Dov Soloveichik z"l sat at the front during the funeral,
although he did not eulogize. Many recalled a wintry morning years
earlier, at a memorial for one of the roshei yeshiva at R.I.E.T.S.
who had passed away. An elderly man, a fur-lined cap pulled down over
his head and ears against the bitter cold, entered the packed hall at
the back. R. Soloveichik, who had been sitting on the bimah facing the
audience, stood up and hurried to the rear of the auditorium to escort
him to the bimah. The whole audience rose, many not knowing for whom. It
was R. Henkin.

Years later, R. Avraham Price z"l of Toronto, the author of Mishnat
Avraham on Sefer Chassidim and the Semag, told me about another winter
morning. It was at a small synagogue in Manhattan. Barely a minyan was
present; it was frigid and blustery, and R. Price said that had he not
had to say kaddish he would have stayed home. The door blew open and in
walked R. Henkin. He had come to collect for Ezras Torah, the charity he
headed, and he collected a few dollars. R. Price asked him, for a couple
of dollars did he really have to go out in such weather? R. Henkin
answered: "R. Price, I'm surprised at you. It's my employment. Am I
supposed to receive a salary for nothing?"

Twenty years ago I had the privilege of visiting Orthodox communities
throughout the United States and Canada. In one city after another I heard
from elderly rabbis: Rav Henkin said this. Rav Henkin ruled that. Rav
Henkin determined the name of the city and enabled us to write gittin. In
the nineteen-forties and fifties, I was told, the rabbi whose rulings
were cited in thousands of homes across North America was R. Henkin.

He was born in Climovicz in White Russia in 1881, studied particularly
in Slutzk, and spent ten years as a rabbi and rosh metivta in Georgia,
on the Black Sea. At the age of 33, he applied for the post of rabbi in
the town of Moholna in what was soon to be war-torn Byelorussia. Part
of the selection process involved giving a learned derasha before the
community. R. Henkin, seeking a position, began with a discourse on the
type of discourses rabbis give when seeking a position. Whether this
reflected his sense of humor or his equally salient trait of examining
anything he was involved in, is not known.

He was elected rabbi of a different town, Smolien, and nine years later
came to America, in 1923. In 1925 he became secretary and later director
of Ezras Torah, which he headed for forty-eight years. R. Henkin was in
constant contact with rabbis and scholars throughout America and around
the world in matters of both tzedaka and Halacha. He was recognized as
a gadol hador without being a rosh yeshiva with disciples to praise him.

Among many personal memories I have of him are two concerning women. The
first is that in birkat hamazon his wife read the "harachaman"
section out loud, and he answered amen. Why? To give her "nachat ruach"
(satisfaction). The second is from after the Pesach seder a year before
his passing. My wife told him how much she enjoyed his tune for chasal
sidur Pesach. He replied that he had learned it from the Ridba"z in
Slutzk, and sang it for her over again from beginning to end.

At a memorial gathering held in Jerusalem thirty days after his death,
six prominent roshei yeshiva spoke. All of the yeshivas and their students
received support from Ezras Torah, and the bet midrash of the Chebiner
Yeshiva was full. The first rosh yeshiva finished speaking, and shortly
after got up and left, followed by his students. The second rosh yeshiva
spoke at length and he, too, left with his students. And so on, until at
the end only a few people remained. At that point I spoke on behalf of
the family, as a grandson who had learned with R. Henkin for many years.

Today, not thirty days but thirty years after his passing, how are we
to evaluate the life and work of my grandfather, the gaon and tzaddik,
R. Yosef Eliyahu Henkin? As is only natural, a generation has arisen
"who knew not Yosef." Occasionally I read discussions citing the Halachic
opinions of rabbis and roshei yeshiva in the United States fifty years
ago, with the writers unaware of who was the address for Halachic
decisions at the time.

But even if the details are not remembered, almost everyone knows
that indeed there lived such a rabbi, one who was numbered among the
great rabbis of every generation. For those who recall his qualities,
a unique blend of great Torah scholarship and Halachic authority with
fearlessness and originality, of decisiveness tempered by humility,
innumerable acts of chessed and devotion to the community, his memory
and his example still serve as an inspiration and a guide in life. His
memory is a blessing. Would that we had his like today.


A detailed account of the life of R. Yosef Eliyahu Henkin z"l can be found
in his grandson's book "Equality Lost" published by Urim Publications,
in chapter sixteen.

____________________

Rabbi Yehuda-Herzl Henkin is the author of three volumes of Halachic
Responsa Bnei Banim. His most recent book in English is "Responsa on
Contemporary Jewish Women's Issues," published by Ktav. After aliyah
to Israel in 1972, he served as district rabbi of the Bet Shean valley.
He now lives in Jerusalem.

In a message dated 8/6/2003 12:42:48 PM EDT, micha@aishdas.org writes:
> I once figured out that given a normal distribution, it would take roughly
> 24,000 years to get an average that was correct to the nearest cheileq.
> Which would explain the need for it to be given halakhah leMosheh miSinai.

But this does not rule out a lucky educated guess. It just proves that
it is unlikely.

Note that the Gmara uses a very imprecise figure for the solar year
based upon Shmuel. when more precise figures were readily available from
another man d'amar for example.

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe
<RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>
The above post is dedicate to the Memory of My Mom 
Gertrude Wolpoe OBM, Gittel Bas Nachum Mendel Halevi A"H

> I once figured out that given a normal distribution, it would take roughly
> 24,000 years to get an average that was correct to the nearest cheileq.
> Which would explain the need for it to be given halakhah leMosheh miSinai.

How accurate is the halachic molad? Is it really accurate to one chelek?

Certainly the knowledge of the solar year was accurate but not that
accurate which why our calendar is slowly off after 1500 years and pesach
is coming out later in the year.

Eli Turkel

On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 12:31:31AM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> How precisely did they know the average length of the lunar month?
...
:> I once figured out that given a normal distribution, it would take roughly
:> 24,000 years to get an average that was correct to the nearest cheileq.
:> Which would explain the need for it to be given halakhah leMosheh miSinai.
...
:> I'd be surprised to hear that people knew the molad anywhere nearly that
:> accurately rather than being able to observe when it occured lema'aseh.
:> (Or getting it from us.)

: How accurate is the halachic molad? Is it really accurate to one chelek?

See my earlier post. The physical molad is 29 days, 12 hours, 792.84096
chalaqim. Our number is simply rounded up to 793.

: Certainly the knowledge of the solar year was accurate but not that accurate
: which why our calendar is slowly off after 1500 years and pesach is
: coming out later in the year.

This is true, and to my mind very significant. Even more so, we used
Shemu'el's estimate which was not the most accurate known to chazal. It's
like we weren't concerned with greater precision, and therefore chose
ease over unnecessary accuracy.

The molad, which requires averaging over many observations, and there
is a large error in determining the same moment in adjacent cycles,
we have to a precision that translates to 0.11044 days over those same
1,500 years. However, the tequfah, which is a costant length and can be
placed in adjacent years to pretty good accuracy by just making notches
in stones, we have far less precisely.

It fits with taking halakhah leMosheh miSinai literally WRT the molad.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
micha@aishdas.org            and her returnees will come in righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org       
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@fandz.com>
> On 5 Aug 2003 at 17:42, SBA wrote:
>> From: "Newman,Saul Z" <>
>>> am i incorrect that it seems that the olam doesnt say the psukim
>>> that are included in kaddish shalem ['kabel brachamim...'] in both
>>> nusach ashk and nusach sfard [but not ari or edot hamizrach, i
>>> think]? why not?

>> AFAIK the Oberlender types Yidden did [and do?] say it - 
 
> MB 56:11 brings that the Arizal said not to say them and concludes 

The Spanish-Portuguese say just that verse (kabel b'rachamim) as a
response after the chazan says the word "Titkabal". They also say the
long version of Yehei shlama rabba, with the response "verevach" before
the chazan says "verevach vahatzalah".

   - jon baker    jjbaker@panix.com     <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker> -

So I would presume to say that Dr. Agus v'sayyasom were/are probably
happy that Tosafos preserved oral and mimetic traditions but probably
squirmed when he did so using Pilpulistic methods instead of stating
more clearly what he was doing. IOW, it would be neater if Tosafos were
more upfront in what he was doing. There are several cases BTW that he
is more upfront on this matter, but again they are not that common

 From when I was in Agus's class (admitly a long time ago) he felt
that ashkenazi Jewry was well aware of their connections to EY through
Italy and were very conscious in defending their customs even when it
disagreed with the rulings of the Gaonim who presumably were the experts
in talmud Bavli.

Eli Turkel

In a message dated 8/5/2003 12:23:19 PM EDT, T613K@aol.com writes:
> TK: YU is no substitute for the real thing. The truth is that no kehillah
> really exemplifies TIDE anymore. Only yechidim here and there. OTOH
> someof the essential components of TIDE have been adopted pretty much by
> everyone, certainly in America, while they all pay lip service to "Torah
> only." e.g., how many charedi-type high schools have no limudei chol?

YU is indeed not a true TIDE because there is really no concept of
a kehilla-based orientation. Aderabboh, YU is highly Americanized
individualized while TIDE is highly Community-Centric

OTOH, it is FAIR to say that had a persona similar to Rabbiner Hirsch
migrated to American and revised TIDE to fit into a more Americanized
egalitarian midset, then YU's TuM would probably come very close to that
revised model.

IOW, if you removed the European/German Kehilla basis and replaced it
with the rugged individualism of American you MIGHT come up with a YU/TuM
brand of TIDE.

If you read Marc Shapiro's work, you will probably agree that YU is MUCH
closer to the Hildesheimer version of TIDE than the Frankfurt school.
Frankfurt was highly into a perfectionistic model that allowed for
little deviation.

Unlike MLevin's comment, I think the Hildesheimer model that was
continued by R DZ Hoffmann, RAE Kaplan, and R. YY Weinberg, is a very
pragmatic model. Proof? Both a Hungarian such as DZ Hoffmann and a
Litvank such as YY Weinberg could transcend their origins and inbred
persuasions and functional admirably well in Berlin. I submit that
this brand of TIDE is less German-centric and does not require one to
be a genius, albeit one would need to be truly learned - iow a lamdan -
to get something out of it.

Also, Hildesheimr did not run a non-practical Torah lishma institution.
He ran a very Torah shelo lishma semirnay with the express purpose
of getting well-rounded and educated Orthodox Rabbanim out to the
hinterlands. Unfortunately, RIETS is largely giving up on the pragmatic
aspects of having well-rounded poskim, and is still mired in a Torah
lishma mindset. That is why when I went to Riets - a year of ksubbos
and a year of Baba Kamma counted, nevertheless I got zero exposure to
hilchos Nidah, Geirus, Mikvah etc.

And even when we learned Shulchan Aruch, we rarely connected it to
Shas. And we never studied Tshuvos - except in grad school...

Now, OTOH, Rabbi Chaim Kohn's Yeshiva Gdolah in Teaneck is teaching
traditional Shas in the mroning and Tur and Beis Yoseph on the same
suga in the afternoon. They finisished hilchos Ribbis a few months ago
and are now doing hilchos nidah. This is IMHO a superior apporach for
a semirnay to trace Halachah from theory to practice via the classic
texts in such a way that one becomes a competent poseik, lamdan, and
potentially a Talmid Chaham, too, Kudos to the Yeshiva Gdolah's method.

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe
<RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>
The above post is dedicate to the Memory of My Mom 
Gertrude Wolpoe OBM, Gittel Bas Nachum Mendel Halevi A"H

In a message dated 8/4/2003 8:51:44 AM EDT, Joelirich@aol.com writes:
> When did this institution begin? Is it possible that in bayit Rishon
> there was one? ...

Assuming Aramaic became the vernacular only AFTER Galus Bavel, it is
unliekly that a meturgaman was necessary during Bayyis Rishon!

But it is possible it existed in Bayis Rishon albeit in a different
format than using an Aramaic Targum!

Kol Tuv - Best Regards
Richard Wolpoe
<RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>
The above post is dedicate to the Memory of My Mom 
Gertrude Wolpoe OBM, Gittel Bas Nachum Mendel Halevi A"H

MF wrote
> I fail to comprehend why TIDE is linked to "a disregard of their emotional
> and, yes, mystical potential."Personally, I try to combine both approaches
> and do not think I am the first to do so - disparately, Dr. Isaac Breuer
> and Reb Shraga Feivel Mendelovitz come to mind. "The World of Prayer"
> by Rabbi Munk also indicates that a "compartmentalized mentality" is
> not necessary.

I will share a story from the biography of R. Meir Shapira: A blaze in
the darkening gloom (p.70), Y. Baumol, Feldheim .

It says there that he greatly displeased R. S. Bruer who asked him; So,
what do you think of my Ortodox yidden?" He answered (earning R. Bruer's
displeasure for many years) "by comparing them to an ice cream "They
are koshe Jews, of course, but they exude such a ...coldness. They don't
have a fiery, warm heart of a Jew in Galicia".

I read someting semilar in the name of R. A. Eliah Kaplan as well.

That of course doesn't apply to outsstanding individuals such as were
mentioned; however, it does explain why it could not be resurrected in
the New World.

BTW, I would not class R. Shraga Mendelowitz as adherent of TIDE. He
was an educator who admired R. Hirsh.

M. Levin

[List rule is not to accept anonymost posts. Avodah is to be a chevrah,
not a soapbox. I'm pretty lax about it; regulars that all the old-timers
know by name already get away with it. Although on more than one occasion
I got complaints from greenhorns about it.

[However, in his few posts the writer's name certainly ought to appear.
I don't want debates amongst identitiless unreal people. In this case,
I'm once again letteing it go, as the difference in time zones means
I'd be holding up this post for days. -mi]


Will someone put me out of my misery and confirm that the extract from
G.Frankel's pamphlet, quoted on this list & reproduced below, is written
as a parody.

>>Once I have begun citing Mr. George D. Frankel's pamphlet, I cannot
>>forbear from citing what he writes on pp. 48-49. I cite without comment:

"For the German Jew, TIDE was more than a way of life. It was the
redemption of his character. Exposure to western culture broadened his
outlook. It made him tolerant and wise. The creative tension generated
by living simultaneously in two worlds gave rise to a sense of irony,
which was the hallmark of the singular German-Jewish Weltanschauung. This
was the secret behind Rav Hirsch's legendary humor and the sparkle that
was always present in Rav Breuer's eyes. But take away TIDE, and all
the pettiness in the German-Jewish soul emerges. That is why German Jews
without TIDE make such good fanatics. One finds them today in Lakewood
and Bnei Brak or at functions of Agudas Yisroel, grim and humorless men,
speaking together in hushed whispers like conspirators.

"But while the German Jew without TIDE is insufferable, the cultured
German Jew was a thing of beauty.

"For him, the highest aspirations of Judaism and western civilization
were not in conflict but in harmony. He saw in the Enlightenment the
realization of the Torah's ideals of justice and equality. He loved to
learn Torah - in a quiet, dignified fashion (often with Mozart playing
in the background) - but his education made him aware that Torah was not
the only source of wisdom and truth. His intellect spurred him to read
widely and impartially, and aroused in him an insatiable curiosity about
the world and its inhabitants. His soul was receptive to the finest art,
literature, theatre and music. (The liturgical melodies that Bnei Brak is
so eager to preserve grew out of the German Jew's love affair with western
music!). He loved nature and the outdoors (frische luft!), yet felt most
at home in the large cosmopolitan cities, from whose cultural resources
he drank deeply. Walking was a passion for him; he was always acutely
aware of the aesthetic quality of his surroundings. Ultimately, Judaism's
deepest appeal to him was aesthetic. To the Eastern European Jew's lament
of "Schwer zu sein a Yid," the German Jew responded, "Aber schoen zu sein
a Yid!" He attached great significance to Judaism's ceremonial objects
and took pains to acquire beautiful ones for himself and his family. He
valued precision, order, balance, courtesy, decorum. rigorously upright
in all his dealings with men, scrupulously pious in his dealings with
God, he cultivated a reserve that masked a real concern for his fellow
man. To those less fortunate, his reflex was organizational rather than
personal. He built hospitals, organized aid societies, arranged for free
loans. His outlook was humanistic, universalistic... [author's ellipses]
and highly ironical. He detested vulgarity and would rather do without
than be seen as grasping. Ostentation offended him, and he often lived
more modestly than his means allowed. He carried himself with great
dignity at all times and was moderate in all things. This was the TIDE
personality par excellence and he was a piece of work!

"This figure, the TIDE personality, more than anything else, constitutes
the only real legacy of the German Jew.

"The tragedy of our kehilla and yeshiva is not just that we no longer
produce such personalities but that we no longer want to!"

(From "Dan Shall Judge His People: 5 Essays on Torah im Derech Eretz and
the Breuer Community Today" by George D. Frankel, 2002, Aire Publishers
c/o Frankel, 50 Overlook Terrace Apt. 6D, NY NY 10033 - the author
notes that copies of the work may be obtained by contacting him at
that address.)
"""""""""""""

Rachmono Yatzilenu

If anyone wants to read the articles by Danny Frankel that R'YGB quoted,
I have them in Word format. I was in touch with the writer a short while
ago and he emailed them to me. I have his email so I think I'm going to
forward the posts on the subject to him, and invite him to respond.

I always enjoy the discussions of TIDE as I grew up in Washington Heights
and went to Breuers (YRSRH) for elementary school (until I got shipped
out to a 'real' yeshiva).

Regarding RSB's request for thoughts on this from us yekkes's, all I can
say is that I was too young to appreciate any serious TIDE push, if there
even was one. I haven't kept in touch with most of my class, but I do know
that the most yekkish kid in my class (a direct descendent of R' Breuer)
who was always so crazily proud of everything yekkish (he even made a fuss
of how to pronounce the name of RSRH!) now learns in kollel in Lakewood.

Little know fact: RSRH's name was not R' Shamshon (or Shimshon) Rephael.
It was R' Shamshon BEN Rephael.

Avi Burstein

At 04:52 PM 8/7/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>MF wrote
>> I fail to comprehend why TIDE is linked to "a disregard of their emotional
>> and, yes, mystical potential."Personally, I try to combine both approaches
>> and do not think I am the first to do so - disparately, Dr. Isaac Breuer
>> and Reb Shraga Feivel Mendelovitz come to mind. "The World of Prayer"
>> by Rabbi Munk also indicates that a "compartmentalized mentality" is
>> not necessary.

>I will share a story from the biography of R. Meir Shapira: A blaze in
>the darkening gloom (p.70), Y. Baumol, Feldheim .

>It says there that he greatly displeased R. S. Bruer who asked him; So,
>what do you think of my Ortodox yidden?" He answered (earning R. Bruer's
>displeasure for many years) "by comparing them to an ice cream "They
>are koshe Jews, of course, but they exude such a ...coldness. They don't
>have a fiery, warm heart of a Jew in Galicia".

A cute story that may even reflect some measure of truth, but I am not sure 
how relevant it is to nidon didan. I am curious, BTW, what RMS would have 
had to say about the hearts of the Litvaks...

>I read someting semilar in the name of R. A. Eliah Kaplan as well.

I tend to doubt that he said it just that way...

>That of course doesn't apply to outsstanding individuals such as were
>mentioned; however, it does explain why it could not be resurrected in
>the New World.

How so? I know many Jews who are not "fiery, warm" - indeed, I would say 
that most of our contemporary Orthodox Jewish milieu is very much "tepid, 
cool!"

>BTW, I would not class R. Shraga Mendelowitz as adherent of TIDE. He
>was an educator who admired R. Hirsh.

>M. Levin

Perhaps. The question, however, is why there aren't, at the very least, 
more of our coreligionists who are admirers of the Hirschian doctrine. (I 
know why, of course. It is difficult to admire that to which you are not 
exposed...).

YGB 

At 01:22 PM 8/6/2003 -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
>... [L]et me translate ahavas chinam as unearned love. Loving another for
>what he is, for his simply being a fellow Jew (as the phrase is used in
>context) or perhaps any human for being a tzelem E-lokim, not for what
>he does. It is chinam because it's loving someone for what HQBH gave him,
>not for what he worked for. Unearned, and yet still of purpose.

>Ahavah she'einah teluyah bedavar is similar, but broader. It doesn't
>look at whether the cause of your love is earned or gifted, but rather
>whether it's of an attribute of the beloved, or of the essence. As the
>gemara focusses on -- whether it's something the beloved can lose and
>therefore the love can pass, or not.

A very dakusdike chilluk if you ask me...

Zohl zein "unearned." But much love is "unearned." Almost all love is
"unearned." So what is the tosefes of "chinam" then?

Nohr vohs, the "chinam" in "sinas chinam" means it comes from your own
techunoh ro'oh, So too in "ahavas chinam" the "'chinam" should mean
that your ahavah comes from your own techunoh tovoh. But that is not
ahavah. It may be chesed, but the two are not congruent.

YGB

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