Avodah Mailing List

Volume 06 : Number 127

Thursday, February 15 2001

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:27:35 EST
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Re: tzedaka/tfila

Joel Rich wrote:
> The Artscroll mentions that 2. is based on david's having said this 
> after puttingf aside provisions for bet mikdash. Does anyone know the 
> source for this statement.

In a message dated 02/14/2001 1:14:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Gil.Student@citicorp.com writes:
> Divrei HaYamim 1 ch. 29

sorry - I meant does anyone connect this pasuk in divrei hayamim with giving 
tzedaka at this point (or is it just "assumed" that this was the ari z"l's 
source for his minhag?


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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:47:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Hachono for Derech Analysis / Voss Iz Der Chilluk?

In preparation for our first Mishmeres Chaim, I would like to cite an
outstanding example of a Poilisher kushya/teirutz that I came across in
preparing Daf Yomi for Gittin 2b.

The Chelkas Yo'av (talmid of the Avnei Neizer, authentic Poilish through
and through) YD siman 10 asks, if eid echad is not ne'emon b'issurin,
b'makom d'is'chazek issura, how can a moreh horo'oh ever pasken a
she'eila, b'makom chezkas issur, l'kulla: He is only an eid echad?!

(I am not making thiis up, folks. Those of you who have a Me'oros Shas
will find this in the margins, those who do not, will find it inside - I
checked it inside.)

His answer. The moreh horo'oh is a shali'ach to pasken halocho: His
chazoko shali'ach oseh shelichuso overrides the chezkas issur in the
she'eila (he deals with the question that normally we do not rely on this
chazoko vis a vis d'orysos, vakm"l).

He is mechaleik between a yochid with true semicha and a yochid with
modern day semicha, ayain sham.

There are several obvious reasons why both the kushya and teirutz are
Poilish. The extent to which you are bewildered how such a kushya
"hoibtech ohn" indicates how brainwashed you really are by our Litvishe
yeshiva system!


Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:09:00 EST
From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
Re: Avodah V6 #126

> I haven't reviewed Hilchos Pesach yet.  What is the reason that there is
> some kind of zman biyur on Friday, if the real zman biyur is on Shabbos?

If the biur is to be done lchatchilah by srefah , if we move it back one day
because of shabbos, perhaps the moved back biur has to follow the rules and
regulations of the usual year.
                           Steve Brizel

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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:47:08 +0200
From: "Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer" <frimea@mail.biu.ac.il>
RE: Erev Pesach sheHal beShabbat

Mark Feldman asks:
>> What is the reason that there is some kind of zman biyur on Friday,
>> if the real zman biyur is on Shabbos?"

To prevent confusion ("Eshtakad") the poskim want you to do biur on
Friday the same time you would do it on a regular year.

Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: FrimeA@mail.biu.ac.il

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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 05:12:09 -0500
From: "Barry D. Jacobson" <bdj@MIT.EDU>
Re: P' B'shalach d'var Torah for g'matri-ah aficionados

Yerushalayim remez from Barry Jacobson:

In Parshas Terumah it says V'asu li mikdash v'shachanti b'sochom. It
uses the term mikdash although it's referring to the mishkan. The gemara
Eruvin (2a, 2b) says from here that mishkan is called mikdash and vice
versa. Although Yerushalayim is not mentioned in chumash, only in neviim
and ksuvim, since it mentions mikdash, one might expect an allusion to
Yerushalayim. Take the last letters of every word in the pasuk, and the
last letters of the first two words of the next pasuk:

V'asu  -   Vav
Li     -   Yud
Mikdash-   Shin
Bsochom-   Mem
Kchol  -   Lamed
Asher  -   Resh

Unscramble and get Yerushalayim!

Note: It might bother you that we used the first two words of the next
pasuk. If so, look in Rashi on the words Kchol Asher. He says Hamikra
hazeh mchubar lmikra shelfanav, this pasuk is connected with the pasuk
preceding it! The Vilna Gaon says that when one uses other systems of
understanding Torah, such as remez, drash and sod, he will be able to
check whether his pshat was correct also, as they must be
consistent. Although Rashi is speaking here about the pshat, what he
says holds true for this remez, as well.

Barry Jacobson

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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:46:18 +0200
From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
Halachic Borders of Eretz Yisrael

If I read the maps correctly that I used for today's Daf, "Tur Amana"
appears to be anywhere from Northern Lebanon all the way to the
Turkish-Syrian border (depending on which map you look at). This would
mean that some or all of western Lebanon is halachically part of Eretz
Yisrael, and some of Northwestern Syria may be as well. Am I misreading
the map? If I'm not, it may explain the answer to a question I always
wondered about, namely why there never seemed to be a problem of Yom
Tov Sheini when the Israeli army was in Lebanon.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:03:14 EST
From: Phyllostac@aol.com
Chevras Anshei Luz - Luzzites (not luddites)


In the wake of all the talk [on Areivim, where this post was originally
misdirected. -mi] on the need for chizuk in ethics and honesty, an idea
came to me....

The story (midrosh?) about the town of Luz is well known (about how it's
inhabitants were meticulously honest, which had the effect of preventing
the malach hamoves from being able to take their souls).

People try various tactics to try to keep the malach hamoves at bay -
some say Tehillim (though some might question this tactic - esp. if it
comes at the expense of limud haTorah - as the Netzi"v did) , there is a
'project refuah' I believe, which promotes ahavas Yisroel as a remedy for
serious problems we face, etc....Of course, there is also the teaching of
'tzidokoh tatzil mimoves'....

How about this - As fine and admirable as the above tactics / projects
may be, I don't believe we find a mokor in Chaza"l that they were as
effective as the power of complete (some might call it extreme - but
that has a negative tinge) Emes to ward off death for a long, continuous
period and for a sizable group of people. So maybe it is an idea to make
something like a 'Chevras Anshei Luz' (www.virtualLuz.com?) to encourage
people to stress the inyan of emes - chosmo shel HKB"H (shelo al minas
likabeil pras).

In that zchus of being dovuk in the chosmo shel Hakodosh Boruch Hu, we
should be zoche to 'bila hamoves lonetzach...' and ' visechezeno eineinu
bishuvcha litzion birachamim' bichayeichon uviyomeichon.......ba'agola
uvizman koriv.......


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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:44:46 -0600
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Guidelines for Derech Analysis / Voss Iz Der Chilluk?

OK, here are our chaburah's tentative guidelines:

1. Once the "Voss Iz Der Chilluk" query is posed, any and everyone should 
try to jump in with an resolution. You may want to, and are encouraged to, 
consult lomdim of your acquaintance who are not online and convey their 
resolutions. See, however, #3 below.

2. Those who have a Mishmeres Chaim, in all fairness, should not use its 
resolutions knowingly, until Monday, or 72 hours after the query is posted, 
whichever comes first.

3. If you propose a resolution, try to categorize what derech ha'limud you 
are employing in resolving the query. That is, after all, the purpose of 
this chaburah! If you consult outside authorities, ask them to categorize 
the approach they used in resolving the query.

4. As this is a chaburah, not a shiur, my proposals will have no more (or 
less, I hope!) validity than anyone else's proposals. And, as a chaburah, 
all participants share equal acharayus for keeping the venture going: If 
you would like to pose a query, go right ahead.

As a review, I present here the cup of tea analysis. Please note the 
obvious: We will not be able to apply all derachim to all issues. Since 
most of us have been educated in the Litvishe Yeshiva system, we will have 
particular difficulty trying to formulate Poilish and Hungarian style 
answers. It will be in devising those that your creativity is most tested!

Feel free to quibble!


   An Analysis of Darchei HaLimud (Methodologies of Talmud Study)
                      Centering on a Cup of Tea

         I am attempting to define the differences between the
major classical Darchei Halimud in the 19th-20th century Yeshiva
world, focusing on a well known jest. This is an albeit
light-hearted, but hopefully illustrative example.

         In Brisk they would mockingly say that in Telshe one would
klerr (analyze) the following chakira (problem):

         What makes tea sweet, is it the sugar or the spoon

         Now, the truth is that in Telshe, there were two derachim,
that of Reb Chaim Rabinovitz (Reb Chaim Telzer) and that of Reb
Yosef Leib Bloch & Reb Shimon Shkop. This chakira captures the
hallmark of the former (Reb Chaim Telzer's) derech - Contingencies
- but not the latter, which we'll explore later.

         Let us now go through how the various darchei halimud
would approach this important conundrum:

Brisker Derech: Intrinsic Categorization and Definition - There
are two (tzvei) dinim in sweetening tea: The cheftza (substance),
i.e., the sugar; and the pe'ula (activity), i.e., the stirring
with the spoon. Everyone knows that Lipton is the "Brisk" tea
bacause it has a double (tzvei dinim) tea bag.

Poilisher Derech: Brilliant Novelty (pilpul) - Neither. It is the
tea itself, as the heichi timtsei (sine qua non - medium) for
making the tea sweet,which makes the tea sweet, for if there was
no tea, there would be no sweet tea either.

The Rogatchover's Derech: Combination of the Two Previous Derachim
- There are three dinim in sweetening the tea: The cheftza, the
peu'la and the niph'al (the impacted entity), i.e., the tea

Hungarian Derech: Extrinsic Resolution - Since wine is sweet and
it is not stirred, it follows that the stirring is not what makes
the tea sweet, but the sugar.

Reb Yosef Leib & Reb Shimon's Derech: Abstraction to an Essence -
It is the Hitztarfus (Fusion) of tea molecules and sugar molecules
that makes the tea sweet.

Sephardi Derech: Uncomplicated Grasp - The Sephardi would walk
away from the argument that the six Ashkenazim were engaged in
over the tea shaking his head in disbelief about how silly these
Ashkenazim were - obviously the sugar stirred into the tea is what
makes the tea sweet!

Another, more serious example of the difference between the
Brisker and Reb Yosef Leib/Reb Shimon Derachim is in the area of
Shee'abud HaGuf (personal liens). The Briskers are satisfied to
explain Shee'abud as a "partial acquisition" (a "miktzas kinyan").
They classify all such amorphous transactions in a category known
as "chalos" (roughly: "transaction"). They concentrate on defining
"What." Reb Shimon, on the other hand, feels compelled to explore
the "Why." He therefore explains that Shee'abud is a logical
construct of the social contract between individuals which
precedes Halacha. He draws an analogy between Shee'abud and Emuna
in the existence of G-d - which also, perforce, must precede the
acceptance of Torah, and is based on logical constructs.


ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:28:34 EST
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Re: Chevras Anshei Luz - Luzzites (not luddites)

In a message dated Thu, 15 Feb 2001 9:05:42am EST, Phyllostac@aol.com writes:
> The story (midrosh?) about the town of Luz is well known (about how it's
> inhabitants were meticulously honest, which had the effect of preventing
> the malach hamoves from being able to take their souls).

Does anyone know where this is found? I'm curious based on our prior
discussions how they balanced shalom and emet.


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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:39:45 -0500
From: "Ari Z. Zivotofsky - FAM" <azz@lsr.nei.nih.gov>
Re: Halachic Borders of Eretz Yisrael

On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
> If I read the maps correctly that I used for today's Daf, "Tur Amana"
> appears to be anywhere from Northern Lebanon all the way to the
> Turkish-Syrian border ....
>                      it may explain the answer to a question I always
> wondered about, namely why there never seemed to be a problem of Yom
> Tov Sheini when the Israeli army was in Lebanon.

until just several decades ago there was an indigenous Jewish commmunity
in south Lebanon and they too kept only one day.
But that has nothing to do with borders of Israel, but rather where the
shlichei beis din reached.

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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:56:16 -0600
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Voss Iz Der Chilluk? #1: MC vol. 1 p. 101

The Sha'arei Yosher 4:9 queries in the case of 10 stores, 3 of which sell 
Neveila meat, another 3 of which sell Treifa meat, and 4 of which sell 
Kosher meat: There is a Rov for Issur, but for distinct reasons: Do we 
follow the majority of Issur as the Rov, or the plurality of Heter? The 
Poskim seem to be of the opinion that we definitely follow the majority 
l'Issur, not the plurality l'heter.

In terms of a Beis Din, when a majority of Dayanim pasken X, but for 
distinct reasons, the Remo CM 25 rules that we follow the majority, but the 
Noda b'Yehuda Tinyana CM 3 brings several sources that rule to follow the 
plurality that is of uniform reason for their opinion.

So, in the case of the stores, the Poskim are of uniform opinion: Follow 
the Majority l'Issur; in the case of the Dayanim, there is room for 
machlokes amongst the Poskim whether we follow the majority or the minority.


Voss Iz Der Chilluk?

What Derech have you used to resolve that Chilluk?

(Now let us see if this Chaburah actually gets off the ground!)


ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:16:41 -0500
From: "Wolpoe, Richard" <Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com>
RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Shaleshudos and: K'S heChal Erev Pesach B'Shabbos

From: "Wolpoe, Richard" <Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com>
>>Why not just frely upon the Remo and minei targima bizman and therefore
>>1) Be yotzei s'eudah shlishis bizman
>>2) Eat the Seder be'teiavon
>>3) Not scramble around trying to avoid extra brachos??>

On 11 Feb 01, at 11:33, Harry Maryles wrote:
>Indeed one CAN rely on Minei Targima as I stated but then you still
>have a B'Dieved. Nothing is stopping you from doing that anyway. But
>the ideal cannot be fulfilled. You either losse one aspect or the

>>If shechitas korban Pesach is docheh shabbos, why can't our seder be
>>enough of an impetus to forfeit the inyan of lechem Mishan for Se'uadah

>The very nature of being Docheh something is that you are "pushing
>off' a Halachic, even Torah requirement. In the case of Lechem Mishneh
>by Shaleshudes, it is not a REQUIREMENT to eat Lechem Mishne, only a
>"Lichatchila". There is no such thingas being Docheh a L'Chathila.

Here let me rephrase this point.

Is lighting Hanukkah candles early on Friday evening or late on Saturday
evening a bedieved because in niether case we do it bein hashmashos?
I would way this is NOT a bedieved at all, rather teh ciscutmstances re:
Shabbos pushes away what would otehrwise be the ideal lighting time.
Lighting early on nights other than Friday (and Saturday of course!
<smile>) might be construed as a "bedieved" or a sha'as hadechak.
But when there is a conflict, Shabbas overrides.

Similarly, Minei Targima are ONLY a bedeived during the rest of the year.
However, when Erev Pesach falls on Shabbas it is imho THE most elegant
approach given the alternatives. That is not a bedieved at all, anymore
than shchitas Pesach is a bedieved when if falls on Shabbos. Get it?

Rich Wolpoe

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