Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 003

Thursday, April 6 2000

• Re: aniyei ircha: (ATT vs TTA)
• Controversy about Rav Yosef's comments
• Re: Matza shiurim
• Re: aniyei ircha: (ATT vs TTA)
• Matza shiurim
• Re: The Mazinka
• Re: Dor Revi'i and Satmar Rov
• Re: Breslov on Philosophy, Tradition; Proof, Trust and Faith
• Re: Matza shiurim
• Administrivia: some statistics for volume 4
• Re: aniyei ircha: (ATT vs TTA)
• Re: Administrivia: some statistics for volume 4
• Re: aniyei ircha: (ATT vs TTA)
• Re: aniyei ircha

In a message dated 4/6/00 10:53:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 Or should we tell the wealthy to stop buying
 $75,000.00 Jaguars and Lexuses, sell their 20 room
 mansions, take less luxourious vacations, etc. etc. 
 Is that a legitimate request, to ask of a wealthy man,
 in order to better pay the presently GROSSLY underpaid
 teachers, even by their own admission?  There are many
 wealthy Baal Habattim who buy Luxurious Diros in
 Israel for their children in Israel and give them
 enough money to,live a somewhat luxurious lifestyle. 
 There are several who buy expensive homes for all of
 their kids here in the States and remodel them
 luxuriously.  All the kids drive luxury automobiles. 
 Is this OK?  Should we deny the fruits of financial
 success to these Askanim,?  Would it even make that
 much of a difference to the total pie if those funds
 were to be added to the pot?
  >>
I admit to being conflicted on this issue - having just participated in 
paying for a US wedding for a fairly large group....   OTOH if wealthy people 
are giving to their halachik requirements, then how can "we" demand more of 
"them". The fault dear Brutus.....

Now think about this- assume that the amount of money to be spent on 
education is fixed, what does halacha say about resource allocation (eg 
Kollel vs. Yeshiva Ketana, number of teachers vs. teachers individual pay, 
local schools vs. big 10 schools....) While economics may not have been one 
of the 7 chachmas, it's this analysis that knowingly or unknowingly the 
community is doing on an ongoing basis.  Have you seen any shut on this 
lately?


Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Without entering into Israeli law (which I do not know) I think it only
fair to point out that Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein is an
Orthodox Jew, appointed by Prime Minister Netanyahu, who has had a
distinguished career and was never considered a leftist.  Rav Yosef is
unquestionably an outstanding halachist but he has made intemperate
comments in the past.  While it is not our place to judge Rav Yosef,
rallying around calling a secular Israeli political figure Haman or
worse then Pharaoh runs counter to approaching secular Jews through love
recommend by the Chazon Ish, Rav Kook and the Rav.  The simple black and
white world view many seem to favor unfortunately only increases
animosity and prevents healthy self-criticism.
Sincerely,
Yosef Blau

Kezayis is clearly a measure of volume, not weight.  See S"A O'C 486-
Remo and MB s'k 3 that one should squeeze together the maror and matzo
to eliminate measuring air gaps between the pieces (but spongy matzo
need not be squeezed).

Avrohom Weidberg

On 6 Apr 00, at 7:51, Harry Maryles wrote:

> What about the fact that many of these Askanim give
> money to institutiions outside the city? There is one
> individual who opledged $250,000.00 to Lakewood
> Yeshiva. Should he have diverted that donation to
> Chicago's institutions? How would Lakewood survive
> without these kinds of donations? Yeshivas Mir in
> Yerushalayim depends on it's very existence on
> donations outside it's own environs. Shoud we in
> Chicago take care of our own and let Mir fend for
> itself? 
> 
> Is this what is meant by Anyei Ircha Kodmon?

I think that depends on why they are giving money to Lakewood 
and Mir. If they are giving money to Lakewood and Mir because 
they or their children learned there, then I think that's b'geder 
hakoras hatov, and may be analogous to giving money to family 
members, which actually comes *before* aniyei ircha (see the 
Rambam in Matnos Aniyim 7 and the Shulchan Aruch in YD 251). 

If there is no such connection, then I think the local schools should 
come first. Maybe not as an absolute, but certainly as a higher 
priority.

> Or should we tell the wealthy to stop buying
> $75,000.00 Jaguars and Lexuses, sell their 20 room
> mansions, take less luxourious vacations, etc. etc. 
> Is that a legitimate request, to ask of a wealthy man,
> in order to better pay the presently GROSSLY underpaid
> teachers, even by their own admission?  There are many
> wealthy Baal Habattim who buy Luxurious Diros in
> Israel for their children in Israel and give them
> enough money to,live a somewhat luxurious lifestyle. 
> There are several who buy expensive homes for all of
> their kids here in the States and remodel them
> luxuriously.  All the kids drive luxury automobiles. 
> Is this OK?  Should we deny the fruits of financial
> success to these Askanim,?  Would it even make that
> much of a difference to the total pie if those funds
> were to be added to the pot?

I think this would come under "hamevazbez al yevazbez yoser 
m'chomesh" - that you can't require someone to spend more than 
20% of his wealth on one mitzva.

JMHO, CYLOP, etc.

-- Carl

P.S. IIRC R. Moshe zt"l said that one of the things that bothered 
him about his career as a posek was that people never asked him 
shailas about Hilchos Tzedaka. Here's your chance to ask 
contemporary poskim....


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>

>On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:15:17PM -0400, jjbaker@panix.com wrote:
>: /semi humorous/

>I missed the humor, so perhaps the following response is out of place. (Taking
>sarcasm literally, or something.)

Because I didn't think anyone would take me seriously.  It was an escape
route in case this position has already been considered and rejected
as stupid.

:                       Shouldn't we pick one set of measurements for
: everything and use them consistently?

>I would think at least two measurements: safeik di'Oraisa lichumrah, safeik
>diRabbanan likulah. Maybe a third in the middle for cases where two di'Oraisos
>have conflicting chumros.

Which is what seems problematic to me on the face of it: having 2 or 3 
sets of measurements seems to violate the explicit Torah rule of not
having more than one set of measurements.  It seems a little odd that
a rule of psak "safek d'O lechumra, safek d'R lekula" overrides a mitzva.

>Machlokesim are resolved in two ways: either through pisak or through treating
>them as a safeik. Most Rabbanim do not feel qualified to voice an opinion
>on the subject, so most of us are talmidim (of talmidim, of talmidim...) of
>those who are forced to treat the subject as one of safeik.

But when a third idea (one set of measurements) comes and is yachria 
beineihem, shouldn't that resolve the multiple safek position of the
d'O-d'R rule?  Furthermore, even if it doesn't, shouldn't it at least
rule in terms of either side of the d'O / d'R divide?  For example:

1) RDB's visitors: both benching (kovea seuda) and matza are mitzvot
d'O; shouldn't there be one set of kzayit/kbeitza for such questions?

2) Yom Kippur: both matza and inui on YK are d'O; shouldn't there be one
kzayit for both?

Gut chodesh

    Jonathan Baker     |  What is the 7th verse of the piut Shir haChodoshim?
    jjbaker@panix.com  |  The Nissan Stanza.  [1st verse in the orig. ms.]
     Web page update: Teachings of the Rav http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/

In Avodah V5#2, HMaryles wrote:
> This coming June 11, my wife and I, as well as the
parents of my daughter's Chasan will both be
privileged to marry off our youngest children to each
other... <
It's always a pleasure to read news like this.  May your
daughter and her Choson be zocheh to build a bayis
ne'eman b'Yisroel and continue to provide their families
with nachas, etc. ... and I hope all those who intend to
participate in Tikkun lail Sh'vuos will summon a sufficient
amount of energy to enliven the dancing b'simchah!
> There is a band here in Chicago that will stop playing
if the Mazinka involves mixed dancing (i.e. men and
women in the same circle). But my gut feeling is that
the correct Minhag is to do it mixed with the two
parents sitting together. <
As a certified Yekke (who receives a demotion from one of
my morning minyan's regulars whenever I arrive a few minutes
late :-), I'm not qualified to comment on the "Source?" question.
I will say that, in the one wedding I participated in which had
such a dance (when my brother-in-law and his Kallah, each the
last of his/her siblings to come under the Chuppah, were
married a few years ago), it davka was the band that let us all
know it was "m'zinka time"!

From a Halachic perspective, we've already discussed on this
list (and, probably, other forums) issues re dancing and seating;
IMHO, there's a "right way" to have such a dance (which may
involve prerequisite knowledge of the participants' exposure to
and attitudes re the opposite gender as well as more-obvious
points such as the "holding hands" aspect mentioned by CSherer).
FWIW, I'll mention a few memorable aspects of my in-laws'
dance:
-- brooms, encircled in golden ribbons, were provided to
both sets of parents, and the dancing started with my
mother-in-law and her opposite number overcoming
their embarrassment and performing impromptu to
the music;
-- with both sets of parents seated and enjoying the show,
the men were m'rakdim in various ways; and
-- some of the dancing was mixed <<Horrors!>>...how so?
The Choson and my sister-in-law, one of his younger sisters,
each holding the end of a handkerchief, did a jig, and,
IIRC, my other (and the Choson's) brother-in-law did
a similar jig with his mother.

Hope this helps!  All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

Shmuel Abeles wrote:

<<<
Bi'm'chilas Kvod Toroso of the Dor Revii and his worthy descendant, I
wonder, am I the only subscriber to this list who is a bit puzzled
with the comparing the DR to the SR?
>>>

B'm'chilas K'vod Toroskho, if you will go back and check the posting in
which the comparison was made (not by me I would also note for the 
record), you will find that it was not made as an overall evaluation of their 
levels of gadlus, but only to indicate that they were two g'dolim representing 
two very different positions within the Orthodox community, that are out of 
the mainstream of opinion within that community.  [By the way, as an aside
to Toby Rubinson, I think that we would be in almost complete agreement 
if you would subtitute the word "mainstream" for "normative."].  In that 
limited sense, I acknowledge that the comparison had a certain degree of 
validity.  As to any more comprehensive linking of the two, I have my own 
opinion, which I will not state explicitly, in order not to offend the sensibilities 
of others on the list such as yourself and also because (as you may know I 
have a personal negius beyond the obvious one which would taint any public 
utterance by me on the subject.)  Having said this much, I don't think that 
any further discussion of the relative merits of these two individuals on the 
list, would serve any useful purpose.

<<<
Admittedly, my only knowledge of the DR is what has recently been posted
on this list by RDG and from what I have heard from a very knowledgable
Rav - who recalls many details of the Parsha in Klausenburg
(and I look forward to reading any articles about him).
>>>

Toby Rubinson in an earlier posting was very kind to mention my article on
the Dor Revi'i which appeared in the Winter 1998 issue of Tradition.  An
abridged translation (by Prof. Y. Elman) of the hakdamah to Dor Revi'i 
appeared in the Spring 1991 issue of Tradition.  I would be very interested
in hearing about whatever details were provdided to you by the Rav,
as well as his identity, either on- or off-line, whichever you are more
comfortable with.

<<<
But let's be honest - AFAIS - even posters on this list - who I would
generally label as surprisingly knowledgable-"non-Kanoim" ("mishtayns geredt"),
have hardly heard of the DR - who though he may have been a Godol shebegedolim - but
seems quite unrecognizeable to most and  was to many unacceptable as Rav
even in his own Kehilla.  His sforim are not that well known either.
>>>

There are many possible explanations for the undeserved obscurity in 
which, r.l., the Dor Revi'i now languishes.  Again, my obvious negius 
suggests that my opinion on the topic may not be entirely reliable, but
for what is worth, my view is that the obscurity (both in absolute and 
relative terms) says more about us than about him.  I would also suggest 
that before assessing his gadlus, you first study his s'forim or, at least, 
contact one of the y'chidei segulah who have studied them.

<<<
Comparing him to the Satmar Rebbe who was a Marbitz Torah and Rosh Yeshiva to
talmidim for almost 75 years, a manhig of Hungarian orthodoxy and a rebbe
to thousands, whose Shitta and derech is still followed by 10,000's of
yidden world-wide - seems a bit over the top. LAD.
>>>

Again, there are many possible dimensions along which one might
choose to make a relative comparison.  Without going into specifics, 
I will just say that it would be possible to suggest other dimensions 
along which a rather different ranking would result.  But I will just
leave you with somthing that my cousin, R. Abraham Klein, z.l., who 
lived in Flatbush and Boro Park, and was a pillar of the Haredi 
community, for many years once told me.  His father, R. Shlomo 
Menahem Klein, who was the son-in-law of the Dor Rev'i, was 
once introduced to R. Meir Simha of Dvinsk.  When R. Meir Simha 
found out that the elder R. Klein was the son-in-law of the Dor 
Revi'i, he told him the following:  "Fun Ungarische rabbonim halt ich 
nit, fun dein shver halt ich yoh."

<<<  
I repeat, I do not wish to minimise any of the Gadlus of the DR
- -but it seems that we are distorting history somewhat.
>>>

I think "we" are, too.  I think we just disagree about who the "we" are.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

P.S.  Micha, You may or may not feel that this is an appropriate thread
for Avodah.  But that judgment should be made indepedently of the
fact that I happen to be related to one of the individuals that we 
are discussing.

On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 07:05:49AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: What is one supposed to do with one's intellect which
: asks the questions which demand answers? I cannot
: agree with a theology which denies one his/her
: intellect.

The idea isn't to deny the intellect. It's to not use the intellect as the
basis of one's yahadus. It's a point the Rihal makes better than I; philosophy
is a shaky basis because different philosophers could succeed at "proving"
opposing points. Whatever it is they were predisposed to prove.

My truism (which I'm overly proud of):
    The mind is a wonderfull organ
    for proving truths the heart already reached.

The way Moshe put it, one email before the one I forwarded last time:
> Not that Reb Nachman wanted dopes for followers. His lessons are
> very deep. His main student, Reb Noson, wrote an 8 volume work,
> showing the moral lessons to be derived from the halachos in all
> 4 sections of the Shulchan Aruch.

> But, the _basis_ of Yiddishkeit, the _source_ and the fount of
> Judaism is "faith". Like the women and plain people have. Without
> sophistication and without "proofs". Once one is solid in this, s/he
> can and should delve ever more deeply into the depth of Torah. But
> _not_ into "speculation". Hir _performance_ of the mitzvos however,
> should be because of hir faith, not his "understanding".

: Chasidus, as is demonstrated by R. Nachman MiBreslov,
: preaches that Emunah Peshutah, pure faith, is the
: higher Madrega, or level, of belief. But the mind will
: not accept that.

I'm not as sure. Although I too am happier with with RYBS's model of a
dialectic between emunah peshutah and philosophical comprehension. Perhaps
that is why you and I aren't chassidim. It apparantly is a successful derech
in Avodas Hashem for many other people, though. I therefore want to understand
it -- even as an outsider.


: This is, also, why I have such a problem with saying
: that a woman's Emunah Peshutah is a higher form of
: belief than a man's Emunah through his intellect.
: First, this kind of feeds the notion that woman are
: simple minded...

Merely less educated in philosophy. Which in R' Nachman's and R' Nosson's day
was an unquestioned given. Again, whether or not this lack of education is
an ideal was a question the Chafeitz Chaim grappled with, and said not
for today's women. Note that the CC's approval of Beis Yaakov was predicated
on the fact that the gov't was forcing the issue. Women were going to be
exposed to philosophy either way. So even he is no clear proof that this
lack of philosophical education is a bad thing.

OTOH, the subtitle for Horeb tells you it's for "thinking young Jewish men and
women".

There's a plurality here. I may have a hard time understanding the other side,
but I can't deny it exists.

"Eilu va'eilu" means there is no "I'm right and they're wrong" (assuming both
fit the omitted part of the quote). In fact, we follow Beis Hillel for the
very reason that they taught both sides. "They're right in saying X and we're
right in insisting Y". (I assume they followed up with, "Although we prefer Y
because...")



:          I believe that ultimately, Emunah Peshutah is
: even more vulnerable to apostacy than Emunah through
: Daas.

Come to scj. Jon and I are in the middle of anecdotal evidence that argues
otherwise. If anyone has experience in dealing with people who claim to be
former ba'alei teshuvah but won't stop debating the point (thereby showing
anger, not apathy), please email me privately.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Apr-00: Shelishi, Sazria
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 19b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:33:10PM -0400, jjbaker@panix.com wrote:
: Which is what seems problematic to me on the face of it: having 2 or 3 
: sets of measurements seems to violate the explicit Torah rule of not
: having more than one set of measurements.  It seems a little odd that
: a rule of psak "safek d'O lechumra, safek d'R lekula" overrides a mitzva.

The issur of "even va'aven" is about honest business dealings. One should not
even own the tools for dealing dishonestly, even if he has no intent of using
it. When something is a to'eivah, it's not just assur, anything related to it
is "miusdik".

I don't see how this has to do with halachic measurements.

For example, we know that there were two definitions of units for both weights
and lengths: one for chol, and one for hekdesh.

: But when a third idea (one set of measurements) comes and is yachria 
: beineihem, shouldn't that resolve the multiple safek position of the
: d'O-d'R rule?

Only if your poseik was able to be machri'ah amongst the sets of measurements.

What you suggest is what the CI, R' No'eh and R' Mosheh (and R' Chaim
Vilozhiner as I just learnt on this thread) set out to do. The rest of
gedolei yisrael are torn between them.

: 1) RDB's visitors: both benching (kovea seuda) and matza are mitzvot
: d'O; shouldn't there be one set of kzayit/kbeitza for such questions?

First, I'm not sure benching on a keza'is is a de'oraisa. It is NOT kevi'as
se'udah. Ignoring that issue...

Enlarging the kezayis for benching is a kulah. Doing so for matzah is a
chumrah. Safeik d'O lichumrah would push the units in opposite directions.
Similarly your #2, matzah and eating on YK. One is a minimum, the other a
maximum.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Apr-00: Shelishi, Sazria
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 19b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

		vol 4	vol 3
---------------+-------+-------
# of days	213	176	(This volume was over longer time because
# of chol	175	121	this half-year included Adar II)

# of digests	481	207
digest/day	2.26	1.25
digests/chol	2.75	1.71

# of emails	8328	3049
emails/day	39.1	17.3
emails/chol	47.6	25.2

# of posters	240	137
# of readers	288	266     (At end of volume)
# of subjects	2516	1411	(To the extent that people use subject lines)

emails/digest	17.3	14.7	(Emails have been getting a shade shorter)
emails/subject	3.31	2.16	(Either we stay at it more, or we're better at
				maintaining our subject lines.)

Users per:
	25%	4	3
	50%	11	7
	75%	31	21

In other words, in volume 3 the most talkative 3 people produced 25% of the
emails, this time it was 4 people. In general, we have a broader base of
contributors now.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Apr-00: Shelishi, Sazria
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 19b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

--- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
> 
> I think this would come under "hamevazbez al
> yevazbez yoser 
> m'chomesh" - that you can't require someone to spend
> more than 
> 20% of his wealth on one mitzva.
> 
> JMHO, CYLOP, etc.


Consider this:

There is one individual who gives 50% of his income to
Tzedaka.  He makes about 10 million (rough estimate
based on sources who wish to remain anonymous). 
5,000,000.00 per year to Tzedaka.  Not bad, right? 
The other 5M he spends on the rather lasvish lifestyle
of himself and his family.  He's got the Jag, multiple
luxury homes here and in Israel. All of his children
live the "good life". But... teachers who see this
opulent lifestyle cannot fathom the "immorality" of
his driving a $75,000. car, 500,000.00 wedding for
hisn daughter, etc. while they can barely pay their
barebone living expenses. Should this Bal HaBos live a
more modest lifestyle for himself and his children?
Should he give 95% of his income to Tzedaka, leaving a
rather hefty (by most standards) half million dollars
to live on? He can still afford the Jag.  Maybe he
should give it all to Tzedaka.  Maybe we should all
give our earnings to one big Pot and take out whatever
the Gedolei HaDor deem appropriate living expenses for
Torah observant Jews. Do you see where I'm going here?
Obviously, it's as you say: you can't require someone
to spend more than 20% of his wealth on one mitzva.
But I can cerainly understand where teacher are coming
from.

> P.S. IIRC R. Moshe zt"l said that one of the things
> that bothered 
> him about his career as a posek was that people
> never asked him 
> shailas about Hilchos Tzedaka. Here's your chance to
> ask 
> contemporary poskim....

We have had such symposiums here. I believe that R.
C.P. Sheinberg once spoke about this very issue, but I
don't think much was accomplished.

HM

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

On 6 Apr 00, at 15:46, Micha Berger wrote:

> 		vol 4	vol 3
> ---------------+-------+-------

> # of posters	240	137
> # of readers	288	266     (At end of volume)

This is impressive. On most lists that I know of, there are a much 
higher percentage of lurkers who do not actively participate.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 6 Apr 00, at 15:03, Harry Maryles wrote:

> There is one individual who gives 50% of his income to
> Tzedaka.  He makes about 10 million (rough estimate
> based on sources who wish to remain anonymous). 
> 5,000,000.00 per year to Tzedaka.  Not bad, right? 
> The other 5M he spends on the rather lasvish lifestyle
> of himself and his family.  He's got the Jag, multiple
> luxury homes here and in Israel. All of his children
> live the "good life". But... teachers who see this
> opulent lifestyle cannot fathom the "immorality" of
> his driving a $75,000. car, 500,000.00 wedding for
> hisn daughter, etc. while they can barely pay their
> barebone living expenses. Should this Bal HaBos live a
> more modest lifestyle for himself and his children?

I don't purport to pasken for anyone, but there are different ways to 
live a wealthy life style. One can be wealthy and live well without 
flaunting it, and by doing so, one is much less likely to draw 
resentment from others. A well known family of real estate 
magnates comes to mind.....

> Should he give 95% of his income to Tzedaka, leaving a
> rather hefty (by most standards) half million dollars
> to live on? He can still afford the Jag.  Maybe he
> should give it all to Tzedaka.  Maybe we should all
> give our earnings to one big Pot and take out whatever
> the Gedolei HaDor deem appropriate living expenses for
> Torah observant Jews. Do you see where I'm going here?

Communism? :-) 

> Obviously, it's as you say: you can't require someone
> to spend more than 20% of his wealth on one mitzva.
> But I can cerainly understand where teacher are coming
> from.

I can too. And if it bothers someone who is giving 50% of their 
income to tzedaka (which obviously is quite admirable) that others 
resent their lifestyle, maybe they should be looking at how to enjoy 
their wealth without flaunting it as much.

> > P.S. IIRC R. Moshe zt"l said that one of the things
> > that bothered 
> > him about his career as a posek was that people
> > never asked him 
> > shailas about Hilchos Tzedaka. Here's your chance to
> > ask 
> > contemporary poskim....
> 
> We have had such symposiums here. I believe that R.
> C.P. Sheinberg once spoke about this very issue, but I
> don't think much was accomplished.

Rav Sheinberg spoke about the lack of shailas in Hilchos Tzedaka 
or about Hilchos Tzedaka?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 6 Apr 00, at 8:42, Chana/Heather Luntz wrote:

> One additional thing about aniyei ircha - the question then has to be
> asked "What is "the poor of your city"?"
> 
> For somebody like Carl Sherer, the answer seems pretty simple.  Those
> people who cannot afford the shabbas chickens down the block (and
> presumably, m'pnei darchei shalom, local Arabs in a similar
> circumstance).

Actually, no. While I would not refrain from giving money to an 
organization that does not discriminate between Jews and Arabs 
(e.g. Israel Cancer Society), I do not feel obligated to either seek 
out local Arabs to whom I can give tzedaka "mipnei darchei 
shalom," nor do I feel obligated to give specifically to organizations 
whose purpose is specifically to help Arabs. 

My understanding of mipnei darchei shalom (which admittedly I 
have not researched extensively - on the list to do) is that it only 
requires me to help non-Jews in the event that my failure to do so 
would cause a lack of shalom or would otherwise be a chilul 
Hashem. No one in Israel expects me to contribute tzedaka 
specifically to Arabs. It is unlikely that anyone would ask - 
certainly in my circles.

On the other hand, an organization like the Israel Cancer Society is 
expected to help all Israeli residents (including Arabs) without 
discriminating, but that does not make it unworthy of my support.

> But David Glasner, I believe, lives in the United States,and that, it
> seems to me, makes the issue not so simple.
> 
> It would not suprise me in the least if David's local muncipality
> decided to do a fundraiser for the children of Sudan.  And if/when they
> come knocking on his door, what is the appropriate response?  

IMHO the appropriate response is that you give enough of a 
contribution to avoid a chilul Hashem, but you save the bulk of your 
tzedaka for your own. For your own family (to the extent necessary 
R"L), for the Jews of your own community, for the Jews of Eretz 
Yisrael (see SA YD 251:3) and specifically of Yerushalayim (see 
the Pischei Tshuva there and Chasam Sofer YD 234), and for other 
Jews.

While when
> the rule was originally formulated, I doubt the that local goyim the
> goyim would expect anyone (Jewish or not) to support anybody else
> besides the local poor, today, if your particular local goyim set their
> tzedaka priorities as being Sudan first (which, if they are a
> sufficiently wealthy community, they might well do), it is not clear to
> me that darchei shalom would not extend to giving to the particular
> tzedaka priorities of such goyim, even if the eventual recipients are
> outside one's city.  One can certainly see how a refusal to give to such
> a cause could cause aivah, and not be considered good citizenship.

Agreed. But I think you should only contribute what is necessary to 
avoid aivah and chilul Hashem. As I understand RDG, that is where 
we part company.

> In particular I note that, in this discussion, there has been a clear
> Israel/galus divide, and I wonder if it is not merely a fact, but a
> correct reflection of the particular reality of what constitutes one's
> city, and what the priorities of that particular city are.

I'm not sure of that. When I lived in the States, the overwhelming 
majority of my tzedaka money went to Jewish causes and a 
substantial portion of it (probably half) went specifically to support 
the local (Jewish) poor, Yeshiva Gdola, Yeshiva Ktana, Mikva and 
so on.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*******************


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