Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 455

Tuesday, March 21 2000

• Re[2]: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Holocaust and pope
• Mishloach manot
• Cow-towing
• Re[2]: How can we condemn etc.
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Re: Cow-towing
• Re[2]: Takanos Redux
• Re[3]: How can we condemn etc.
• Re: Avodah V4 #447
• Purim Alert
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Re: how can we condemn etc.
• Re: wedding takanos
• Re: wedding takanos
• Re: Benei Beraq
• Takanos Redux
• Purim Torah
• Parshas Tzav

Tonight A&E will do the biography of Charles Lindbergh.  It is useful to see HIS
kind of anti-Semitism vs. that of FDR's

Disclaimer: No doubt in my mind that FDR could have done more

It is also no doubt that FDR felt he could only go so far to be nice to Jews, 
and not just cause he had ambivalent feelings (which he did) but because during 
the 1930's there was a worldwide wave of anti-Semitism.  It is a fact of the 
zeitgeist that Jews were on the defensive, W.W.II was called by many Americans 
to be the Jewish War.  FDR steered a midway course - some call it halfhearted.

One of my projects in BRGS was Abba Hillel Silver.  His nephew was rabbi in W. 
Hartford and I interviewed him for the project.

No doubt that FDR did a lot for the Jews and also no doubt he was a big 
disappointment.  The half-a-loaf metaphor is so apropos.

Well how about another ruler - is achashveirosh  a good guy or a bad guy?  he 
signed gezeiros to kill all the Jews and anotehr one to save all the Jews!

He appointed Haman as Prime minister and later on appointed Mordechai too.

Ambivalent?  Mixed messages?  Cup half-full or half-empty?

if Achashveirsoh was such a rosho, why didn't Mordechai refuse to do business 
with him? He certainly didn't fear authority, after all he defied Haman, so let 
him defy achashveirosh too?

Apparently Mordechai and wise Jews can distinguish one rosho from another. 

Haman and Hitler are lost causes.  Achashveirosh and FDR are not, they can swing
either way, and we Jews CAN work with them to make a better place for the world 
and for Yiddn.

Like David Finch, I see broadbrushing ALL anti-Semites into one class not only a
disservice to truth, but a form of defensiveness that will cut us off from 
potential friends.  And like HM, I see the Xtian right etc. as a half-a-loaf 
stiuation that is workable from a position of mutual respect as in kabdeihu 
vechashdiehu!

E.G.' s
1) Beigin distinguished between Sadat and Arafat

2) Avrohom took rechush from Par'oh but not from melech sdom.  Two levels of 
rih'us

3) Yitzchok married into Lovon and Besuel's family, but not into a Knaani 
family.

4) There is a rosho that is amaliek and there is rosho who sits at our seder 
table.

Good Purim
Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com 



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

> First of all, "Finch" has never, ever said anything in defense of Pope Pius. 
> Roosevelt, yes; the Pope, no. 

Half a loaf is better than none.



-- Carl

O.K., let's say this is accurate.

Then let's stop condemning others for being passive.  True you can condemn an 
Eichmann ysv who diverts military trains to kill Jews - no question.

But how can one condemn FDR or anyone else for taking a passive stance based 
upon THEIR set of priorities?

Let's either accept that the world is governed by "what's in it for me" across 
the board or take on the same universalistic concern we demand from others.  The
problem as I see it, is a kind of hypocrisy in which we demand attention for our
suffering but deny that to others.

My bottom line is that legabei action I agree with Gershon, & Carl that our own 
come first.

BUT

We can still be outspoken against injustice anywhere as best as we can.

Good Purim
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Takanos Redux 

I wrote:

<<This is the problem of philosophy by cliche':  it reduces the solutions 
to all problems to a slogan.

To which RDF replied:

<<Maybe. But to avoid commitment on grounds that others (i.e., the Goyim)

should be doing the work for us is, I think, one of the "desperate 
enterprises" about which Thoreau warned. >>

	I take marching orders from Thoreaus no more than from Cleaver.  In a 
perfect world,  we Jews would have time and resources to address all 
problems.  It isn't a perfect world and we have to prioritize.  The 
priorities are aniyei ircha.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

I think we can come to some sort of middle ground between the position of 
Aviva Fee and David Finch and that of Carl. Yes, maybe Jews should speak out 
against the injustice around the world and yes Roosevelt probably wasn't a 
real anti Semite. However, I hope all agree that this isn't even close to the 
situation with the pope. The Pope's followers were actively involved (ask 
survivors), they believed they were following church teachings and the Pope 
could have stopped it with his great influence. There is simply no moral 
equivalent to Jews who have nothing to do with the atrocities all over the 
world and whose clout is far more limited. Maybe Jews should do more, but I 
find the comparison of the two situations to be obscene.

Toby Rubinson

Anyone have a source for saying that mishloach manot must have items
requiring two different brachot?
Meir Shinnar

>No, you guys don't cowtow to Goyim. (Neither do a lot of American 
> >Jews,either.) But you're obsessed with them, and with all the wrongs 
> >theycontinually commit against you. That might not be cowtowing

Cow-towing is physically demanding work not suited for Purim. Maybe we 
should leave it for... Shabes Parah?

Or maybe that's just the parah calling the cattle red?

A freylekhn Purim
Sholem Berger
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There has been a lot of back and forth between Carl and David.

I think David is on the right track.  He is not in any way condoning what 
the pope yemach shmo did.  I almost threw up on Sunday night listening 
the the galach on 60 minutes diffending pope pius ymach shmo.  (I do 
think FDR could have done a heck of lot more.)

The issue goes to the same as applies to inidivuals and the chiyuv of 
numerous items either Mipnei Eivah or Darchei Shalom.  We must do what we 
can to help others or when the shoe is on the other foot we may not 
receive the help we need.

We may be lacking power and our help will do little, but at least we are  
pariticpating and it is realized. When a powerful leaders sees a 
community that does not give a hoot about anyone else, if we need help, 
why should we expect it to be forthcoming.



Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@netcom.com

In a message dated 3/21/00 10:32:47 AM US Central Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<<  I take marching orders from Thoreaus no more than from Cleaver.  In a
 perfect world,  we Jews would have time and resources to address all
 problems.  It isn't a perfect world and we have to prioritize.  The
 priorities are aniyei ircha.
  >>

Thoreau's use of the term "desperate enterprises" was poetic. It wasn't a 
marching order. He didn't give marching orders -- he defied them.

If, as Jews, we feel comfortable equating Henry David Thoreau with Eldridge 
Cleaver, then we'll continue to victimize ourselves with our ignorance. Goyim 
think of Jews as smart. Maybe they should think again.

David Finch

Is this red cow stuff in reality a red herrnig, then I'll have it for shalosh 
shudos!

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Cow-towing 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/21/2000 12:20 PM


>No, you guys don't cowtow to Goyim. (Neither do a lot of American 
> >Jews,either.) But you're obsessed with them, and with all the wrongs 
> >theycontinually commit against you. That might not be cowtowing

Cow-towing is physically demanding work not suited for Purim. Maybe we 
should leave it for... Shabes Parah?

Or maybe that's just the parah calling the cattle red?

A freylekhn Purim
Sholem Berger
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

I don't think Jews are stupid, just maybe not Thoreau in understanding the 
subtle points of HD Thoreau

godod purim
Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Takanos Redux 


If, as Jews, we feel comfortable equating Henry David Thoreau with Eldridge 
Cleaver, then we'll continue to victimize ourselves with our ignorance. Goyim 
think of Jews as smart. Maybe they should think again.

David Finch

Along these lines...
Rabbi Pliskin's email from last Friday:

    DAILY LIFT #516   View The World With A Benevolent Eye
    
    A master artist looks at an entirely different world than someone who 
    lacks his vision. We can all train ourselves to see more deeply.
    When you see the world as a place in which to do kindness, you see a 
    different world. You see a world full of spiritual opportunities wherever 
    you are and wherever you go. 
    
    Let this be your world. 
    
    (from Rabbi Pliskin's new book: "Kindness: Changing People's Lives for 
    the Better" - http://www.artscroll.com)

Good Purim

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re[2]: How can we condemn etc. 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate 
Date:    3/21/2000 1:01 PM


There has been a lot of back and forth between Carl and David.

I think David is on the right track.  He is not in any way condoning what 
the pope yemach shmo did.  I almost threw up on Sunday night listening 
the the galach on 60 minutes diffending pope pius ymach shmo.  (I do 
think FDR could have done a heck of lot more.)

The issue goes to the same as applies to inidivuals and the chiyuv of 
numerous items either Mipnei Eivah or Darchei Shalom.  We must do what we 
can to help others or when the shoe is on the other foot we may not 
receive the help we need.

We may be lacking power and our help will do little, but at least we are 
pariticpating and it is realized. When a powerful leaders sees a 
community that does not give a hoot about anyone else, if we need help, 
why should we expect it to be forthcoming.



Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@netcom.com

Concerning the covering up of the Magen David, in the BG"Tz today it
was revealed that apparently the pope is worried about people thinking
he's too sick, so the fact that the first van is an ambulance has been
disguised, world wide (incl. Spain etc.) and all medical-related
symblos/anything that can identify the van as an _ambulance_ has been
removed.

All other vans will retain the ambulance markings (in Israel -- the
Magen David).

The official cars will have both the Vatican and Israel flags.

Shoshana L. Boublil

Questions:

1) How do we know Purim is twice as "happy" as Shabbas. (at least according to 
the Arizal)

2) How do we know Haman is from Amaleik?

3) How do we know that Achashveirosh was an impotent potentate?

4) What is Bill Gate's wife's name?

On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:57:00 -0500 <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:

<<My bottom line is that legabei action I agree with Gershon, & Carl that
our own come first.
 
BUT
 
We can still be outspoken against injustice anywhere as best as we can.>>

	Call all the media,  stop the presses;  we will be having a press
conference.  The entire listmembership of Avodah (except lurkers?) will
be announcing their position on Bosnia,  Serbia,  Sudan,  or whatever
trouble spots are current.

	Who will come?

	Who will care?

	R' Carl said it very well that nobody really gives a hoot what any one
of us,  or any organization of us says;  it does not compare to the Pope,
 upon the diyukim in his every word millions of Catholics hang.   So, 
for action,  you agree;  for policy statements you may take a stand on
whatever you choose to;  I'll save my breath.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

--- DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
>
> Roosevelt(His wife, however,
> occasionally exploded in 
> anti-Jewish invective in private conversation and
> correspondence throughout 
> her life.) 

This is a complete and total shock to me. I have
always believed that Eleanor Roosevelt was one of the
most altruistic people in American history. And I
thought that there was virtually universal acceptance
of that view. Do you have any proof of this
"anti-Jewish invective"?

HM

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--- Noah Witty <nwitty@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> HM wrote:
> 
> "There is no consideration in these Takanos for
> those
> who make their living in the Simcha business. "
> 
> HM should, in fairness to readers, remind readers
> that (as my memory serves)
> his wife is in the catering business, and as such
> his comment arguably stems
> from self-interest reather than altruism. In any
> case, those
> who make their living in the Simcha business" is  a
> smaler demography than
> the universe of those who are getiing married or
> parents of same.

No my wife is not a caterer. She is a wedding
co-ordinater.  The more money you spend the more money
we make.

HM


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Actually, my last post wasn't true.  I just wanted to
get a "harumph" out of you.

HM

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--- Shaul Wallach <wallach@mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:

>     Also, please note that Benei Beraq receives
> distinction year after
> year as the city having both the highest poverty
> rate and the lowest
> crime rate in Israel. Benei Beraq also houses some
> of the finest
> charity and volunteer organizations in the country
> for helping the ill
> and disadvantaged all over the country, whether
> religious or
> not. Among these can be mentioned Ezer Mizion and
> Ezra la-Marpe, whose
> director, R. Elimelekh Firer, received the Israel
> prize a few years ago
> for his humanitarian work.
> 
> Shaul Wallach, Benei Beraq

I love Bnei Brak. I'm sure that all of the above is
true. I spent many a vacation there ewhen my parents
lived there. I will never forget the Friday night and
Shabbos afternoon walks down R'chov R. Akiva with it's
throngs of people including lots of little children
all decked out in their Shabbos finery. What a
pleasure it was to be in a community that was totally
Shomer Shabbos. One of my favorite haunts was Felafel
Nochum's when he used to be on the corner of HaShomer
(Re-named Kahanemn) and R' Akiva.  My parents Dira was
one block away from there and I used to stuff mysel
with that dilicious falafel far too often and spoil my
supper.  Purim in Bnei Brak is unsurpassed anywhere in
trhe world including Jerusalem. If Israel has a Mardi
Gras, it is Purim in Bnei Brak.  One of the most
joyful experiences one can have.  I could go on but I
am late for the Purim Seudah at my sister-in-law's
house.

If anyone of you ever has the chance one should try
and spend a Shabbos or Purim in Bnei Brak.

HM

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> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:54:50 EST
> From: Joelirich@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Takanos Redux 
> 
> In a message dated 3/21/00 10:32:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:
> 
> << 
>  Aniyei ircha kodmim and that stuff.  With the problems in our machane, we 
>  cannot possibly abandon time and resources to problems about which others 
>  (i.e. goyim) should be worrying. >>
> Taking the example of aniyei ircha -- does that mean to you that a town must 
> give all it's tzedaka to the local poor and raise them to the appropriate 
> level before $1 goes to outside aniyim? I don't believe that this has been 
> historically true (i.e., am I not allowed to give to the requests coming from 
> outside )? Is this halachically true?

Not quite. See Aruch HaShulchan YD 251: 1-4.

> On an analogous level, I don't think anyone is suggesting that orthodox Jews 
> should abandon Jewish causes to fight poverty in bangla desh, but we should 
> at least care (perhaps at least analogous to the kind word which we must 
> halachically give the poor even if we have no tzedaka for them)

See Aruch HaShulchan YD 251:13.

Freilichen Purim!

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Bill Young sent me this. It was apparently originally written by 
Glenn Ferdman. It brings back fond memories of my youth when, 
on the Eighth day of Pesach (back when I had such a thing :-), the 
Chazan of our shul said in Musaf, "v'hikravtem isha l'olah 
laHashem." 

Freilichen Purim to those for whom it is still Purim. We just started 
it here in Yerushalayim....

-- Carl

Purim, 5760
ã Peh Shel HaPherd

   Now that we are in sefer Vayikra, I'd like to talk about some of my
favorite karbanos.

   There's the "Olah," the "burnt offering," which is brought on 15
separate ocassions, including the Tamid, with the Omer, on Yom Kippur by
the Kohen Gadol, and a woman after childbirth.

   The "Sh'lamim," or "peace offering," is another personal favorite,
brought 8 different times, including with the shte ha-lechem on Shavuos, by
a nazir, and by a bechor.

   Then, there's the "Chatas," or "sin offering," which comes in two
flavors: the inner and outer, brought for a total of 11 times, including "a
matter that was hidden from the congregation," (e.g., such as who stole
this year's cache of oscars…), for a sin of a personal nature, and for
individual avoda zorah…

   But my favorite korban of them all is the korban isha…the "woman"
offering, which is a type of 'olah,' or 'burnt offering,' a description of
which is found in Bamidbar, perek khuf hes, pasukim aleph to tes vav, which
begins with: "ze ha-ishe, asher takrivu l'HaShem…"

   According to the Toras Leitzanim, this korban is brought on the occasion
that a woman commits the most unpardonable of offenses against her husband,
namely, taking the comics and sports sections of the Sunday newpaper before
he's had a chance to read them.

   The shoresh ha-Mitzvah, according to the Sefer ha-Shinook, is to be
found in Megillas Esther, perek Aleph, pasukim tes zion and yud zion, where
Achashveirosh's wiseguys suggest that Vashti's noncompliance represents a
threat to the stability of family life as we know it.

   Now, the Kol shota asks the obvious kasha:  in the history of klal
Yisroel we do not find mention of even a single eposide of this korban
being brought.  Several answers to this kasha are provided by the Ben
Shota, the son of the afforementioned Kol shota, who forgot his question
before he could answer it.  Number one, he says, the halacha makes it very
clear that the sin must be committed with a newspaper, and newsprint had
only been introduced sometime in the middle to late 19th century; Number
two, the halacha also states that the transgression must occur within site
of her husband, and, he surmises, most instances probably occur while the
man is in shul (assuming, btw, the case involves home delivery; see also
Rashi on Bereishis, perek lamed, pasuk khuf gimmel), and lastly he points
out men are  reluctant, obviously, to bring such cases before beis din,
since it would interfere with another, more important mitzvah, namely,
preparation of lunch so that the ba'al may watch his Sunday football games
uninterrupted.  But, he leaves it as a "tzorech iyun."

A Purim Samayach/Fraylechn Purim to all...
G.F.
P.S.  The above opinions represent those of the author alone, and not my
employer (nor my own, when sober).


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

VOTE FOR OUR DAUGHTER, THE BEGUILING AVIGAYIL FOR 
RABBANIT PURIM

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From Shlomo B Abeles

I often look at the siman at the end of the Parsha
(as noted in most Chumoshim) which gives the total number
of Pesukim in the Sedra as well a Siman (or 2) being a word
which is b'gmatria the number of Pesukim.

This week's sedra is Tzav and we are told that there are
Tzadi-Vov (96) pesukim and Tzav (Gematria 96) siman.
Which is all very cute (Parshas Tzav, Tzav Pesukim & Tzav Siman)
- except for the fact that there are actually 97
pesukim in this weeks Parsha!

Does anyone have any information about this or generally about those
end-of-parsha simonim? Who wrote them  and when etc.
I think the Artscroll Stone Chumash brings
an explanation on each weeks siman from R' D Feinstein shlita,
but I am really inteested in their history and background.

Happy Shushan Purim to all.

SHLOMO B ABELES

*********************


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