Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 392

Thursday, February 24 2000

• Re: Noah's flood
• Re: Egyptian mythology
• RE: Avodah V4 #391
• Re: Frum sociopaths
• Re: Haredi Bashing
• Re: Study of History
• RE: Egyptian mythology
• Re: Chilonim/Charedim, Problems and Solutions
• Re[2]: besmirching frum sociopaths
• Re: Study of History
• Re: Egyptian mythology
• Re[2]: Study of History
• Halacha and...
• Re: Halacha and...
• Re: Frum Sociopaths
• Re: Halacha and...
• Re:
• Re: Halacha and...

On Wed, Feb 23, 2000 at 11:49:10PM -0500, Yitzchok Zlochower wrote:
: The language of the Torah in describing the mabul certainly leaves the
: impression that we are dealing with a global event that destroyed all
: animate life on land except for the passengers of the ark.

And yet there was at least one living olive tree when it was all over. Things
/did/ survive or were recreated after the flood. I haven't seen anyone
comment on it though.

Which is why I'm not bothered by the following:
:                                      Unfortunately, it leaves many
: unanswered questions.  The principle one being the lack of any physical
: evidence for such a calamitious global event.

If the Torah tells you a tree survived, wasnt' eroded away, etc... why should
it surprise me that the remains of earlier trees were also there?

:                Then there are the numerous "practical" questions.

"'Practical' questions" about a neis???

As I said, the lines of reasoning imployed here could be used, ad absurdum, to
"prove" deism. Yitzchok doesn't believe in the argument, he just sympathizes
with those who are troubled by it. I don't understand how a frum Jew can be.
The problems only exist if you presume a non-frum worldview. If HKBH broke
teva while Noach was building the teiva (ok, I had to fish for that pun)
then how could you hope to answer "how"?

As to branding people "heretic". I don't seem to find belief in the mabul
as a historical event being on the Rambam's list. However, if the argument
presumes a deistic stance -- that we assume everything could be explained
scientifically, with none of our "fundamentalist" beliefs about supernatural
divine intervention, than the argument DOES lead one down the primrose path
to kevirah -- not as a slippery slope, but as an application of the *same
ideas* to Yetzias Mitzrayim and ma'amud Har Sinai. The argument might be
kefirah even if the conclusion isn't.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 22-Feb-00: Shelishi, Sisa
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 118b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 2/24/00 9:18:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

> I just noticed that both in the case of the eigel and the korban there's a
>  shift from adult to child (ox -- > calf; ram -- > lamb)

And see Rashi Bamidbar 19:2 (second time around after Possuk 22).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

I notice that there is much give-and-take in these volumes. Where does
this take place?

Moshe Schorr

R. Gorelick used to really lace into people who accentuated the tofel and 
negelected the ikkar.

BEH I will re-tell some of his cute stories in detail.  One fellow after getting
married started wearinga gartel.  R. Gorelick said to him, you are behind teh 
front lines,  The front line battle is getting to hear kiras haTorah w/o people 
chatting, you are putting on a gartel and are not dealing with this issue, etc.

IOW, he saw a lot of "frum shtick" as a way of ducking the serious issues of day
to day frumkeit and hiding behind certain chitzoniyos, etc.

I think Yeshaya, Shmuel and other nevi'im perceived simlar tendencies - lomo li 
rov zicheichem...


Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Frum sociopaths 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    2/23/2000 12:49 PM


There are likely a good number of frum sociopaths in prison (although one 
being in prison does not necessarily make one by definition a sociopath) 
-- especially given that a good number of Rabbonim (project aleph in 
Florida) do kiruv work in prison -- it is nothing to laugh at.  As for 
the case which prompted this discussion, if someone for instance, wears 
tzitzis and makes the brocha on tzitzis every day even though they only 
daven Shacharis (and not mincha/Maariv) does someone lose credit for 
having put on tzitzis and davenning Shacharis? Or what about the person 
who sat next to me in shul this morning who walked in just prior to the 
kehal reciting Shemonah Esrei -- said Berachos, a chopped up Pesukei 
DeZimra, Berachos Krias Shema and Krias Shema, Shemonah Esrei, Tachanun 
(he did listen to the Chazaraas HaShatz), and then proceeded to put on 
Rabbeinu Tams before he left the shul -- does he lose credit for Rabbeinu 
Tams or the parts he did daven even though Kavanna was likely wanting?   

:  2. We will not be baited into participating in a contentious and 
: ultimately unproductive thread which has no place in Avoda.

Speaking as listowner, I concur. Often the difference between contructive
criticism and mudslinging is only in who the audience is.

I am reminded of a comment I overheard from R' Pam. I was at a shil dinner
where he was the guest speaker, around a decade ago. It was a younger minyan,
with a number of bachurim, and two of them were arguing the then-new statement
from R' XYZ about the beliefs of chevrah ABC.

One editorialized, "That's why moshiach hasn't come yet. They still fight
amongst each other."

R' Pam warmly took the boy's hand and corrected him. "No, he hasn't come yet
because we all say '*they* haven't yet' and not '*we* haven't'."

(Don't take the quote marks to imply I remember the exact words said. They
were for naarative purposes only.)

(I fondly remember R' Dovid Lifshitz zt"l also used that kind of tochachah.
A warm soft voice and physical contact, so that you feel the love behind the
words, and not mistake it for anger. If only I could do that with my kids
without blowing my cool... What's that about ka'as and A"Z?)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 22-Feb-00: Shelishi, Sisa
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 118b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

There is a point of intersection...

That is to tell the truth 

AND

to give the most generous intepretation of what prompted that act or speech.

EG, we report that the great Gaon Ploni said something really nasty about his 
colleague Almoni,

And

we point out that the Gaon Ploni had just suffered a terrible attack of kidney 
stones and was under tremendous durress.

A friend of mine's wife - who is very careful about her loshon - confessed to me
that she says "horrible things" during childbirth.   As if to say she is not 
great tzadekkes.

aderabbo,  we see that she is otoh capable of uttering "horrible things" but 
otoh is so careful that ONLY under the duress of childbirth does she give in to 
this.

by reporting the emes, and giving it a "chessed" interpretation, we can acheive 
the truth while mitigating its neagtive impact

I think the gemoro talks about being dan lekaf zchus in a similar vein re; the 
story of thee fellow who while on a journey goesto the Mikva, etc..

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Rav Frand once wrote (on parsha Shmos):

"It is no coincidence that the word Chessed always precedes the word Emes 
wherever the two terms are used together in the Torah. (For example: 
Bereshis 24:49; Shmos 34:6; Yehoshua 2:14) If Emes would precede Chessed, we 
would never reach Chessed. If our perspective on life would always be 
'Truth', then no one would ever be worthy of receiving any Kindness."

His conlcusion was that sometimes Chesed is more imporatant than Emes.


-- Eric

>
> I just noticed that both in the case of the eigel and the
> korban there's a
> shift from adult to child (ox -- > calf; ram -- > lamb). I
> don't know what
> it means. I'm curious to "hear" your thoughts.

Well, on one foot: Childen have a more tamimus approach to things. (See R'
Nachman's Simpleton and the Sophisticate). The Ruach Stus that causes us to
do averos is at least partially a result of our adult (sophisticated) mind.

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

fwiw tangentially re: chaplains.

YU accepted the responsiblity of "forcing" some musmachim to take military 
chaplancy positions during the Vietnam War Era (and perpahps ealirer, too)

What is not known is that - as an indirect result - other frum yeshivas were 
thereby enabled to connitue provide 4-D and other deferments.  IOW had YU not 
made this "deal" all yeshiva deferments would have been in jeopardy.

I wonder if anyone in the yeshiva velt who availed themselves of this deferement
ever took the time to give YU a "yasher koach"?

What's my point? we need each other. Both sides ought to have some hakaras hatov
for the contributions of the other.  I think R. Kook saw this when he apprecated
the genuine good the secular Zionists did.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Chilonim/Charedim, Problems and Solutions 


Yeshiva students could go in as Chaplains after 
Smicha.  But the main thing is that it shouldn't be 
only Yeshiva students that are exempt. And it 
definately should not be automatic.  Perhaps there 
would be some sort of Bechina as to who is really 
learning at a minimum level.  These standards can be 
determined by a committee of Roshei Yeshiva 
representative of the entire spectrum of Charedi/Dati 
society. The IDF then has to make acceptable 
conditions for Charedim to serve, such as all Charedi 
units and upgraded kshrus, etc. 

Once these things are done, then I truly believe that 
we can all start getting along.

HM
__________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. 
http://im.yahoo.com

Isn't dina demalchusa dina apply wrt bigamy - even if the intrinsic halahcah is 
intact?

And I recently heard that no one in the USA has been imprisoned for Bigamy in 
decades.  I cannot verify this, but I did hear it on the radio or TV.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com  


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: besmirching frum sociopaths 


Another point to consider:

What if the "crime" is not considered an aveira?

For example: A Teimani with two wives could be imprisoned under US law for 
bigamy -- would that make him a sociopath?



Akiva

On 24 Feb 00, at 9:42, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> There is a point of intersection...
> 
> That is to tell the truth 
> 
> AND
> 
> to give the most generous intepretation of what prompted that act or
> speech.

Well that's certainly what we are supposed to do when we hear 
something that could be lashon hara, but it is not a heter to say 
things that should not be said. 

> EG, we report that the great Gaon Ploni said something really nasty
> about his colleague Almoni,
> 
> And
> 
> we point out that the Gaon Ploni had just suffered a terrible attack
> of kidney stones and was under tremendous durress.

I think this is what the Chavos Yair is getting at in the tshuva the 
Chafetz Chaim brings at the end of his sefer where he goes through 
the Gemaras and explains things like "nidmeh li she'ain lo moach 
b'kodkodo." But first there has to be a toeles in the saying itself.

> A friend of mine's wife - who is very careful about her loshon -
> confessed to me that she says "horrible things" during childbirth.  
> As if to say she is not great tzadekkes.

She's forgiven. After all, the Gemara says that the reason a woman 
brings a korban after childbirth is as a hataras nedarim for vowing 
not to be nizkak to her husband again childbirth.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

uveiloheihem oso shefotim?

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Egyptian mythology 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    2/24/2000 9:21 AM


I recently emailed a chaveir a three things from Egyptian mythology that 
could be interesting to frum Jews:

1- The goddess of childbirth, Heqt, was a frog (or frog-headed). Picture the 
mental state of a Mitzri during makkas tzefardei'a. Coming out of the river 
where they drowned all the Jewish newborns is the effigy of the appropriate 
goddess. The midah kineged midah wouldn't be missed on them. (Hertz, IIRC)

2- The demigod who was supposed to carry prayers to the gods and blessings 
down to the people was Apis, who was a bull. (Bulls pulled carts in their 
culture. Horses were for speed and war, not burdens. I think it has to
do with their lack of harness technology. The way they made harnesses in 
those days would cause pulling a heavy load to choke the horse.)

RSRH notes that this adds an element to the eigel hazahav story, as it shows 
that they really were trying to replace Moshe with a new middleman and they 
weren't out to find themselves a new deity, as per Chazal.

3- According to Avudraham, Egyptians don't worship sheep. They worship the 
zodiac, which includes a sheep. This provides a second connection between 
the korban Pesach and sheep, as the mazal for Nissan is the ram.

I just noticed that both in the case of the eigel and the korban there's a 
shift from adult to child (ox -- > calf; ram -- > lamb). I don't know what 
it means. I'm curious to "hear" your thoughts.

-mi

--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 22-Feb-00: Shelishi, Sisa 
micha@aishdas.org A"H
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 118b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.

My main point is that an act is usually intrinscially neutral, but the meaning 
we assign to it is not. 

It's similar to a dream, that hakol holeich achar "hapisron".

Betzedek tispot amisecho is - al pi drush - a call to us to see things in a 
positive light.

here is a humorous anecdote that happend to me while I was in Mechinas Ner 
Yisroel.

One day my dorm counsleor asked me how did things go today?

Feeling bad (guilty) I said: "I was the last one into shiur and the first to 
leave."  (IOW I felt I had put in the least effort that day)

He responded: "You mean you entered the shiur an Acharon and came out a Rishon! 
<big grin>

Sometimes we need to look for the good.

R. Dr. Avraham Twerski told a story in a Friday night Oneg in Breuer's:

His father - a rebbe- gave him a "look" of disapporval for playing chess on 
Shabbos.  Not that it was ossur, but it's passed nisht for a rebbe's child.

But lest the child feel overly depressed, the father/rebbe winked at him and 
asked - "did you win?" (I think R.Dr. A. Twersky did).

Even in Tochacho - an unspoken one at that! - the father mixed in a bit of wit 
of humor to lighten it up to find some good.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Study of History  
Author:  <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> at tcpgate
Date:    2/24/2000 10:00 AM


On 24 Feb 00, at 9:42, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> There is a point of intersection... 
> 
> That is to tell the truth 
> 
> AND
> 
> to give the most generous intepretation of what prompted that act or 
> speech.

Well that's certainly what we are supposed to do when we hear 
something that could be lashon hara, but it is not a heter to say 
things that should not be said. 

> EG, we report that the great Gaon Ploni said something really nasty 
> about his colleague Almoni,
> 
> And
> 
> we point out that the Gaon Ploni had just suffered a terrible attack 
> of kidney stones and was under tremendous durress.

I think this is what the Chavos Yair is getting at in the tshuva the 
Chafetz Chaim brings at the end of his sefer where he goes through 
the Gemaras and explains things like "nidmeh li she'ain lo moach 
b'kodkodo." But first there has to be a toeles in the saying itself.

> A friend of mine's wife - who is very careful about her loshon -
> confessed to me that she says "horrible things" during childbirth. 
> As if to say she is not great tzadekkes.

She's forgiven. After all, the Gemara says that the reason a woman 
brings a korban after childbirth is as a hataras nedarim for vowing 
not to be nizkak to her husband again childbirth.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer 
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel. 
Thank you very much.

> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:19:54 -0600
> From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> Subject: Halachah and ...

<<Note that mod-O's and RSRH's "and" involves this world, Chassidus is
"and"ing
with shamayim, and Mussar with the world between your ears. We actually
have divided ourselves along the same lines as the avos. (ayin sham, or
at least <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/vayeitzei.html>)>>

	Sounds interesting,  up to the point where I got lost.  Could you
elaborate?  

	Also,  I am a little fuzzy on your distinction between TuM and TIDE. 
Isn't the underlying assumption of TuM that there is an equality there?

	I assume the train had nothing to do with this <g>?

Gershon

On 24 Feb 00, at 11:20, Gershon Dubin wrote:

>  Also,  I am a little fuzzy on your distinction between TuM and TIDE.
> Isn't the underlying assumption of TuM that there is an equality
> there?

I understood the difference between TuM and TIDE to be that TIDE 
regards (most or all) secular learning as a necessary evil, while 
TuM regards it as an integral component of Avodas Hashem. While 
TuM adherents may believe that they are a truer version of TIDE, I 
doubt that TIDE adherents would look at TuM as any kind of TIDE. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Just a few short heiaros on this line of Avodah:

First in reference to this post:

> Doesn't "dan likaf zechus" require us to believe he probably did? Let's put
> it this way: If he says "harei at mekudeshes li al minas she'ani tzadik",
> we hold he'd be married.
> 
> - -mi
>

 Actually, we don't HOLD she'd be married, we are merely Chosheish for the
Kiddushin on the potential that there was a Hirhur Teshuva.(The kiddushin
are MiSafek -- See Internet Chaburah Parshas Ki Sisa 5760 for fuller
analysis)

Also, the Inyan of Being Dan L'Kaf Zechus might not apply here as the
individual seems to have been Machria himself L'Kaf Chova. (See similar
examples of Rav Yochanan who pulled the ladder away from his guests room
when he was worried the latter was going to rob him.)

> ------------------------------
> 
> What if the "crime" is not considered an aveira?
> 
> For example: A Teimani with two wives could be imprisoned under US law for
> bigamy -- would that make him a sociopath?
> 
I'd like to ask the other psychologists and mental health professionals to
back me up here, but this line of discussion seems to be misusing the term
"sociopath" as to be synonymous with the word "criminal". In actuality, a
sociopath is a personality style where the individual uses a keen ability
to read social situations extremely well and manipulate them to his
benefit. Many of the criminals in prison today might show sociopathic
tendencies but not all criminal acts are sociopathic in nature. 


Jonathan Schwartz, MA

On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:45:19 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
<cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes:

<<I understood the difference between TuM and TIDE to be that TIDE
regards (most or all) secular learning as a necessary evil, while TuM
regards it as an integral component of Avodas Hashem. While TuM adherents
may believe that they are a truer version of TIDE, I  doubt that TIDE
adherents would look at TuM as any kind of TIDE. >>

	I am not sure that your characterization of TIDE's viewpoint on secular
learning is entirely correct.  My impression is that it was a
"lechatchila" ,  not,  as you describe,  a hora'as sha'ah or a bediavad.

	 If TuM is not TIDE,  then what authoritative basis does it claim?  RSRH
was the proponent of TIDE;  a lesser person would have bogged down in
trying to explain the concept to the more conservative (RW) elements in
Klal Yisrael.   I am not sure that RYBS laid claim to the title either;  
maybe some of the experts on the list can help us out.

Gershon Dubin
gershon.dubin@juno.com

In Avodah 4#391, MBerger posted:
> Note that mod-O's and RSRH's "and" involves this world, Chassidus is
"and"ing with shamayim, and Mussar with the world between your ears. We
actually have divided ourselves along the same lines as the avos. (ayin
sham, or at least <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/vayeitzei.html>)

Okay, maybe I'm playing fast-and-loose with the ideas.... <
Don't stop there :-) -- let's hear your compare&contrast
of those three methodologies with the "har," "sadeh," and
"bayis" concepts (or let me know if you want me to
start/keep the ball rolling).  We may finally have a thread
which complies with the purpose of this list.... :-)

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

In a message dated 2/24/00 10:46:01 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< I understood the difference between TuM and TIDE to be that TIDE 
 regards (most or all) secular learning as a necessary evil, while 
 TuM regards it as an integral component of Avodas Hashem.  >>

I don't think that most Hirschians think that TIDE involves a "necessary 
evil." I think of TuM as a paradigm within which scholars approach the study 
of Torah, while TIDE involves a wider intellectual engagement with non-Jewish 
society. This, at least, is what I infer connotatively from other people's 
use of the terms.

David Finch

*********************


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