Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 323

Tuesday, January 25 2000

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:05:42 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Histalkus BeNashim


In a message dated 1/25/00 1:38:07 PM US Central Standard Time, 
perzvi@hotmail.com writes:

<< Don't be so sure of things -- who would have thought 25 years ago that it 
 would presently be impossible to buy any Milk but Cholov Yisroel Milk in 
 Kosher supermarkets in New York?  Sure there is a rightward shift -- fathers 
 without black hats, kids with black hats, etc. -- and sure it does lead to 
 certain curious revisionisms (my favorite is the Artscroll Children's 
 Megillah depicts the Jewish men of that time period as wearing either black 
 hats or shtreimlach) but is it such a huge issue?
  >>

Not if you like black fedoras. But what if you don't? If you skip the fedora, 
or wear something snappy, like a dove-gray number with a dark blue suit, 
you're suddenly imputed to have all sorts of dangerously liberal religious 
ideas, i.e., that milk can be perfectly kosher without being Cholov Yisroel. 

David Finch


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:05:49 EST
From: Pawshas@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Community of Yissachars


In a message dated 1/25/00 1:35:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

> Which brings us back to one of your usual disagreements - we can all be 
>  Yissachars to the best of the abilities given to us by HKBH.  Can we have 
a 
>  community of all Yissachars?

The Gemara says "No." See Gemara Pesachim 112a, "Do not live in a city which 
is governed by Torah scholars." As Rashi explains, Talmidei Chachamim are 
busy learning, and they won't properly oversee the town's affairs.

Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:12:55 EST
From: Pawshas@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Ish beChet'o Yumas


Tobrr11@aol.com writes:
> not have his kids accepted in the  chadorim


Chas veShalom! Deprive the children of Chinuch if the father is sinning? I 
assume this was Shigra deLishna and nothing more...

Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:14:44 EST
From: Pawshas@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Immediate burial


In a message dated 1/25/00 1:35:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

> Is there a source that burying the dead immediately is d'oraisso?

Sanhedrin 47a, based on "Lo Salin Nivlaso," other than in cases where the 
delay is for a purpose which honors the deceased.

Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:08:20 -0500
From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:
Re: Mach'oh


How very frum of you.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Yzkd@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 1:32 PM
Subject: Mach'oh


> I hereby make a public Mach'oh to the defending of MM, V'ani Es NAfshi 
> HItzalti.
> 
> Kol Tuv
> 
> Yitzchok Zirkind
> 


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:20:20 -0500
From: gil.student@citicorp.com
Subject:
Re: Hatzolo, was Mendelsohn


Regarding chilul Shabbos for nochrim, the Chasam Sofer differentiates between 
two types of eivah - one which will lead to an uncomfortable situation and one 
which will lead to sakanas nefashos for Jews.

Even though the gemara specifically forbids chilul Shabbos for nochrim DESPITE 
eivah, the Chasam Sofer felt that the gemara was discussing the first type of 
eivah while the situation has developed where there is a real sakanas nefashos. 
Therefore, he bekoshi permitted chilul Shabbos for nochrim.  Other poskim have 
discussed this and the Divre Chaim (Tzanzer) agreed with the Chasam Sofer.  The 
Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchasah suggests asking your LOR but in a footnote quotes 
RSZ Auerbach as saying that today it is even more dangerous with all the modern 
forms of communication.  Not saving a nochri in NY can lead to pogroms the next 
day in Russia.

Hatzoloh saving nochrim on Shabbos has solid halachic precedent and is probably 
what most poskim would, bekoshi, suggest doing lema'aseh.  Look what happened in
Crown Heights based partly on accusations of discrimination by Police and 
Hatzoloh.  It can happen again.


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:42:37 -0500
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject:
Re: Hatzolo, was Mendelsohn


On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:20:20 -0500 gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

<<Hatzoloh saving nochrim on Shabbos has solid halachic precedent and is
probably 
> what most poskim would, bekoshi, suggest doing lema'aseh.  Look what
happened in
> Crown Heights based partly on accusations of discrimination by Police
and Hatzoloh.  It can happen again.>>

	Baruch shekivanta.  This is the essence of my private exchange today on
this topic with RRW.

Gershon


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:48:48 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Ish beChet'o Yumas


In a message dated 1/25/00 3:13:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Pawshas@aol.com 
writes:

> > not have his kids accepted in the  chadorim
>  
>  
>  Chas veShalom! Deprive the children of Chinuch if the father is sinning? I 
>  assume this was Shigra deLishna and nothing more...
>  
While in general your right see RaMoh Y"D 334:6

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:07:54 EST
From: Tobrr111@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Mendelsohn


In a message dated 1/25/00 3:10:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,  Rich wolpoe 
writes:
<< How does this prove that Menedelsohnn did not do so out of "eivo"?  Often 
a 
 "middle man" will tell X to give in to Y and fro Y to give into X.   >>
Your point is well taken. The fact that he wrote a letter to the authorities 
does not prove that it wasn't because of eiva. However, my understanding is 
that this wasn't really the case. In any case, I think one of the complaints 
against Mendelsohn was that he was overly concerned about eiva. Meaning, that 
although eiva is a legitimate halachic concern, Mendelsohn was always worried 
how Judaism would look in the eyes of his gentile friends even when there was 
no danger involved. I saw many times in his writings where he writes about a 
certain mitsvah "how will I explain this to my gentile friends?"
In general it is a real shock to me that Mendelsohn is somewhat respected in 
MO circles. I had always thought that he was despised by Orthodox Jews all 
across the spectrum (and I try to read the literature from all Orthodox 
groups). There are a number of members of this list who were talmidim of such 
leaders of MO such as RYBS and RA Lichtinstein. Did anybody ever hear them 
express an opinion on Mendelsohn? 
Also, I think the comparison between some of R. Akiva Eiger ZTVKL descendants 
being irreligious and the case of Mendelsohn is unfair. Mendelsohn's children 
were not only irreligious but they all converted to other religions. R. Akiva 
Eiger had 2 children who were Great Talmidei Chachamim (probably classified 
as gedolim), R. Shlomo and R. Avrohom, A son in law who was one of the 
greatest gedolim, the Chasam Sofer, and a grandson who was a gadol, R. 
Leibile Eiger. Thats a pretty good track record.


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:08:48 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Re[2]: Mach'oh


Dear R. Yitzchok:

Hypopthetically speaking - would you make a similar macho'oh if people said 
positive things about "acheir"?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Mach'oh 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/25/2000 3:16 PM



How very frum of you.




> I hereby make a public Mach'oh to the defending of MM, V'ani Es NAfshi 
> HItzalti.
> 
> Kol Tuv
> 
> Yitzchok Zirkind
> 


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:09:38 -0600
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject:
Re: Hatzolo, was Mendelsohn


It is unclear whether the reason for permitting Hatzalah to take the call
is because of eivah, or because of darchei Shalom. I paraphrase R' Aharon
Lichtenstein in <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n146.shtml#18>.
He is convinced the two are NOT the same, that darchei Shalom is "ma
ani, af ata" (imitatio dei).

-mi

PS: I compressed the archives. In order to read them, you need to point to
.shtml files, instead of the old .html references (see the example above).
The new files wrap an uncompression script.

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 25-Jan-00: Shelishi, Yisro
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 104b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:44:45 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Re[2]: Mendelsohn


fwiw I agree that he probably went TOO far.

But isn't that teh price of balzing a new trail?  He had no parameters to guide 
him.  It's fair to look back and say, let's not go THAT far, but isnt it also 
unfair to say he should have known better?

IOW, let's learn from his mistakes, too!

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Mendelsohn 
 In any case, I think one of the complaints against Mendelsohn was that he was 
overly concerned about eiva. Meaning, that although eiva is a legitimate 
halachic concern, Mendelsohn was always worried how Judaism would look in the 
eyes of his gentile friends even when there was no danger involved. I saw many 
times in his writings where he writes about a certain mitsvah "how will I 
explain this to my gentile friends?"
<snip>


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:53:33 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Re[2]: Mach'oh


In a message dated 1/25/00 4:08:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> Hypopthetically speaking - would you make a similar macho'oh if people said 
>  positive things about "acheir"?
>  

1) The (so called) positive that is being said for MM SR"Y is on his Shita,

 "Acheir" they asked that "Mutav Dlidaynoh" not C"V defense for "Kitzas 
B'netiois" (since this was accomplished I place a line break when discussing 
the 2).

2) A more appropriate comperison would be to Oisoi Hoish.

3) There is a Lav Sheloi Lhapich Bizchusoi Shel Meisis.

Umisaymim Btoiv, Kol Tuv,

Yitzchok Zirkind


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:03:43 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Re[4]: Mach'oh


I'm copnfused are you saying MM had more in common with oso hoish than with 
Acher?

Have you answered my original question?

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Mach'oh  
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/25/2000 4:57 PM


In a message dated 1/25/00 4:08:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> Hypopthetically speaking - would you make a similar macho'oh if people said 
>  positive things about "acheir"?
>  

1) The (so called) positive that is being said for MM SR"Y is on his Shita,

 "Acheir" they asked that "Mutav Dlidaynoh" not C"V defense for "Kitzas 
B'netiois" (since this was accomplished I place a line break when discussing 
the 2).

2) A more appropriate comperison would be to Oisoi Hoish.

3) There is a Lav Sheloi Lhapich Bizchusoi Shel Meisis.

Umisaymim Btoiv, Kol Tuv,

Yitzchok Zirkind


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:06:02 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Yissachr/Zevulun


I don't have any sources handy, but I would guess that at least someone has 
already come up with the idea of fulfiling some of both roles within the same 
person.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Gershon
(not a Yissachar,  but not well off enough to be a Zevulun either)


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:11:52 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Re[4]: Mach'oh


In a message dated 1/25/00 5:03:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> I'm copnfused are you saying MM had more in common with oso hoish than with 
>  Acher?
>  
There is a Kabala AFAIR from the Bal Shem tov, that Oisoi Hoish will have a 
Tikkun after "Nun Alofim Yoivlois" and MM even then not.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:12:51 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject:
Re: Yissachr/Zevulun


In a message dated 1/25/00 5:05:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> I don't have any sources handy, but I would guess that at least someone has 
>  already come up with the idea of fulfiling some of both roles within the 
> same 
>  person.
>  

Bloshon Chazal Torah Ugdulah Bmokom Echod.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:17:45 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Re[2]: Yissachr/Zevulun


aha!  what about some who have bits of both w/o being masters of both like 
Rebbe?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Yissachr/Zevulun 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> I don't have any sources handy, but I would guess that at least someone has 
>  already come up with the idea of fulfiling some of both roles within the 
> same 
>  person.
>  

Bloshon Chazal Torah Ugdulah Bmokom Echod.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:23:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@ymail.yu.edu>
Subject:
Mendelssohn and the singular destiny of the Jewish people


> 
R. Bechoffer writes:

> I am not interested in taking more time to peruse Mendelssohn from the
> source texts.

but not uninterested in wasting the time of hundreds of readers
with comments and threats untainted by such persusal.

> 
> My understanding of Mendelssohn may find its confirmation in a broad array
> of secondary texts, from Graetz, "History of the Jews" The Epoch of
> Regeneration Chap. 1 (in the edition I have at home, HPC 1919, vol. 5 pp.
> 332-333); to R' Berel Wein's "Triumph of Survival", see p. 45.

Those who rely on these sources as objective history of philosophy, take
heed. You do so at the risk of historical error. Whether that is
significant or not depends on whether intellectual honesty is a virtue &
whether ill-informed bullying is a vice.

> 
> Those of you who defend Mendelssohn's theology,

If defense means a desire to get at the truth, I plead guilty.

> take heed and tread warily:
> You do so at your own, significant, peril.

In the course of a long life I have witnessed enough threats that the
novelty has long worn off. One doesn't quite know whether to summon a
lawyer or a bodyguard.

If I weren't preoccupied with more urgent personal matters I might come up
with a snappy retort; then again, I might not. So I will leave this, and
the scholarly issues outstanding, in the hands of others, such as the
jjbaker whom I do not know, but who seems well-informed on the subject.


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:26:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject:
RE: Histaklus BaNashim


--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > This will ultimately become one of the defining
> > characteristics of the RW as the MO will
> undoubtedly
> > never accept this custom.
> 
> Gee, I'll make sure to tell all the MO Israelis I
> see whose kids have *long*
> peyos that they must be RW...
> 
> Haven't you forgotten that Sephardim *also* wear
> long peyot?
> 
> And if MO is the only group that *doesn't* wear
> them, maybe, just maybe, the
> MO are *wrong* this time?

This is not an MO issue. They are not the ones
changing the custom of their fathers.  It is the RW. I
can show numerous pictures of recent Gedolei Israel
who DID NOT have payos(e.g. the Rav, R. Ruderman. All
of the Telsher RY's and certainly Lubavitch). Now,
when a Gadol has peyos, it might be considered a hidur
for a man of his position, at least today. But, for at
least the last couple of generations, prior to the
early 60's, no-one ever saw a litvishe bochur with
peayos.  Suddenly at about theat time they started
appearing on kids one at a time.  This coincided when
the post war baby boomers, i.e. the chidren of the
holocaust (read: Chasidim) started their own elitest
more RW dayschool system.  Until that time the the day
school system was more homogeneic and included a mix
of MO RW, Chasidic, and Kiruv students.  As for the
Sphardim, it is true that their Mesorah included Peyos
but theirs are a very unique style which is easily
distinguishable from the ashkenazic variety. 

For some reason, perhaps to gain acceptability from
the RW some RW Mizrachi are also growing peyos.This is
a really strange phenomenon if you ask me.


BTW I think that there are now 5 distinct types of
peyos: the Chasidic type, usually long and curly, the
Litvishe type,  ususally short and behind the ear, the
Brisker type, usually bushy, and the Yeminite usualy
very long and narrow, and the Chazan Ish type,which
are basicly Elvis type sideburns.

Please understand I am not trying to disparage anyone
who has Peyos. I just don't understand why it is now
considered such a big deal to have them by a community
that did not value them at all in the world of pre-
1960.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:28:04 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
Re: Daughters in the Ladies Section (was Histaklus beNashim)


On 25 Jan 00, at 11:06, sambo@charm.net wrote:

> Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:

> > But are you teaching her how to daven, or are you teaching her
> > how to sit still in shul? If she can't read yet, then obviously you are
> > teaching her how to sit still in shul, and that's an important lesson.
> > But what will happen when she can read and you want to teach her
> > how to daven?

> We make time for that at home. Sometimes she'll sit in shul with a
> siddur and say the alef-bet while pointing to the letters, but learning
> time is at home. She'll grab her alef-bet book and come running. And we
> do tefillot ba'al peh for now. So she gets some of both.

That doesn't teach her how to answer dvarim shebikdusha, and that 
is what she needs to hear from someone sitting next to her.

Funny story (which all of you will PLEASE not tell my daughter 
that I told in this august forum :-). When my eldest was 2.5 years 
old, we were davening in Yeshiva and had gone out to say Kiddush 
Levana on a Motzei Shabbos. During the Kaddish after Kiddush 
Levana this child screamed out at the top of her lungs "Amen, 
Y'Hei...." The look on the Rosh Yeshiva's face was priceless :-) 

> It could be that my daughter gets more attention in this area than some
> kids, since I'm constantly trying to keep up with "fixing" what she
> learns from Morah Goldie. But it's not that difficult and quite
> rewarding.

Do I dare ask what you are fixing? In my case, I find myself trying 
to get my kids to daven in Ashkenazis (al titosh toras emecha and 
all that) as opposed to the Israeli "Sphardit" they hear in school 
and on the streets. I am much more successful with the boys than 
with the girls. You can guess why....

> Anyway, I wasn't trying to impose my own experience on the discussion. I
> just wanted to illustrate my thought that once the girls understand
> seperate seating I don't see why they'd want to sit in the mens'
> section.

Ah, but that's the issue. You see, I don't think the girls really 
understand separate seating until they're at an age that's a bit 
beyond where I feel comfortable taking them into the men's 
section. That's why I raised the issue. Chana pointed out (and I 
think correctly) that one should not let it get to the point where it 
becomes an issue of "you may no longer sit in the men's section 
because you are...." So there is a fine line that has to be drawn, 
and I am trying to get some feedback on where others draw it 
(together with sources if anyone has any). 

>  but from my
> > experience, most schools do a woefully inadequate job of teaching
> > our children what is said in davening outside of school. 
 
> Absolutely. So it's up to us. What do I have to do that's more important
> than teaching my kids to daven?

You cannot do a complete job of teaching your child how to daven 
without s/he hearing davening in shul in a manner so that they can 
figure out what everyone is saying. A 4-year old (well, most 4-year 
olds) cannot really do that yet.

And what do you do with a child who cannot sit still? I would argue 
that child does not belong in shul. (Cf. Mishna Brura 589:18). One 
of my daughters reached the point of being able to sit still in shul 
around the time that I felt she was old enough to belong in the 
ladies' section. Now what? Well, we are doing the best we can with 
her, but I cannot tell you honestly how much of the tzibbur part of 
davening she does or does not know how to answer properly - I 
have no way to check, and my wife is home with an infant....

Bottom line - it isn't always so simple.

> > disturb in shul), and if you don't teach her how to follow in the
> > siddur, she will not learn it until much, much later.

> I agree wholeheartedly. But I don't think shul is the place for that
> instruction.

Then how do you propose to teach her to answer Kdusha and 
Kaddish and Barchu and so on?

> > If you bring your daughter to shul, and there is another
> > minyan going in the ladies section, or she cannot hear from the
> > ladies section, or the ladies section abuts two different minyan
> > rooms, and once the second minyan starts she can no longer hear
> > the first one, she is not going to want to sit there once she is old
> > enough to have to sit there and to understand what is happening.
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's probably time to find another shul.

Easier said than done. Most of the shuls in my neighborhood are 
still in caravans without ladies sections, four years after the first 
pioneers moved in. In our shul (no longer in a caravan since 
Succos B"H), the ladies section can hear netz (if they sit at the 
edge that is closest to our room), but in the winter the second 
minyan (and yes, I am talking about Shabbos) starts at 7:30, which 
is 30-45 minutes before netz finishes. The ladies section is 
officially open for the second minyan (I don't know how much they 
can hear, but I suspect it is not a whole lot), and the third minyan 
starts at 8:15 in the same room that the first one vacates around 
then. And this is one of the best situations for women davening in 
shul in our neighborhood.

My point is that a lot of davening situations for women are less 
than ideal, and you have to work with what is available. In a perfect 
world, all children would come to shul from the age of 2-3 and sit 
silently absorbing what goes on around them. The girls would go to 
the ladies section at an age to be determined :-) already knowing 
how to handle tfilla b'tzibur. 

Let me know if all your kids IY"H turn out to be such malochim :-) 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il


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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:28:05 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject:
RE: Histaklus BaNashim


On 25 Jan 00, at 20:30, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > This will ultimately become one of the defining
> > characteristics of the RW as the MO will undoubtedly
> > never accept this custom.
> 
> Gee, I'll make sure to tell all the MO Israelis I see whose kids have *long*
> peyos that they must be RW...

Actually some of them may be talmidim of Mercaz HaRav Kook 
and various mosdos associated with it.

There are a lot of kids with peyos in the shtachim.

Also, on this subject, someone attributed peyos in America to the 
Hungarians who arrived after the Holocaust. How do you explain 
that nearly every kid in the Litvishe Chadorim here has peyos?

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il


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