Avodah Mailing List
Volume 04 : Number 323
Tuesday, January 25 2000
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:05:42 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Subject: Re: Histalkus BeNashim
In a message dated 1/25/00 1:38:07 PM US Central Standard Time,
perzvi@hotmail.com writes:
<< Don't be so sure of things -- who would have thought 25 years ago that it
would presently be impossible to buy any Milk but Cholov Yisroel Milk in
Kosher supermarkets in New York? Sure there is a rightward shift -- fathers
without black hats, kids with black hats, etc. -- and sure it does lead to
certain curious revisionisms (my favorite is the Artscroll Children's
Megillah depicts the Jewish men of that time period as wearing either black
hats or shtreimlach) but is it such a huge issue?
>>
Not if you like black fedoras. But what if you don't? If you skip the fedora,
or wear something snappy, like a dove-gray number with a dark blue suit,
you're suddenly imputed to have all sorts of dangerously liberal religious
ideas, i.e., that milk can be perfectly kosher without being Cholov Yisroel.
David Finch
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:05:49 EST
From: Pawshas@aol.com
Subject: Re: Community of Yissachars
In a message dated 1/25/00 1:35:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:
> Which brings us back to one of your usual disagreements - we can all be
> Yissachars to the best of the abilities given to us by HKBH. Can we have
a
> community of all Yissachars?
The Gemara says "No." See Gemara Pesachim 112a, "Do not live in a city which
is governed by Torah scholars." As Rashi explains, Talmidei Chachamim are
busy learning, and they won't properly oversee the town's affairs.
Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:12:55 EST
From: Pawshas@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ish beChet'o Yumas
Tobrr11@aol.com writes:
> not have his kids accepted in the chadorim
Chas veShalom! Deprive the children of Chinuch if the father is sinning? I
assume this was Shigra deLishna and nothing more...
Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:14:44 EST
From: Pawshas@aol.com
Subject: Re: Immediate burial
In a message dated 1/25/00 1:35:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:
> Is there a source that burying the dead immediately is d'oraisso?
Sanhedrin 47a, based on "Lo Salin Nivlaso," other than in cases where the
delay is for a purpose which honors the deceased.
Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:08:20 -0500
From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Mach'oh
How very frum of you.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Yzkd@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 1:32 PM
Subject: Mach'oh
> I hereby make a public Mach'oh to the defending of MM, V'ani Es NAfshi
> HItzalti.
>
> Kol Tuv
>
> Yitzchok Zirkind
>
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:20:20 -0500
From: gil.student@citicorp.com
Subject: Re: Hatzolo, was Mendelsohn
Regarding chilul Shabbos for nochrim, the Chasam Sofer differentiates between
two types of eivah - one which will lead to an uncomfortable situation and one
which will lead to sakanas nefashos for Jews.
Even though the gemara specifically forbids chilul Shabbos for nochrim DESPITE
eivah, the Chasam Sofer felt that the gemara was discussing the first type of
eivah while the situation has developed where there is a real sakanas nefashos.
Therefore, he bekoshi permitted chilul Shabbos for nochrim. Other poskim have
discussed this and the Divre Chaim (Tzanzer) agreed with the Chasam Sofer. The
Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchasah suggests asking your LOR but in a footnote quotes
RSZ Auerbach as saying that today it is even more dangerous with all the modern
forms of communication. Not saving a nochri in NY can lead to pogroms the next
day in Russia.
Hatzoloh saving nochrim on Shabbos has solid halachic precedent and is probably
what most poskim would, bekoshi, suggest doing lema'aseh. Look what happened in
Crown Heights based partly on accusations of discrimination by Police and
Hatzoloh. It can happen again.
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:42:37 -0500
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Hatzolo, was Mendelsohn
On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:20:20 -0500 gil.student@citicorp.com writes:
<<Hatzoloh saving nochrim on Shabbos has solid halachic precedent and is
probably
> what most poskim would, bekoshi, suggest doing lema'aseh. Look what
happened in
> Crown Heights based partly on accusations of discrimination by Police
and Hatzoloh. It can happen again.>>
Baruch shekivanta. This is the essence of my private exchange today on
this topic with RRW.
Gershon
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:48:48 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ish beChet'o Yumas
In a message dated 1/25/00 3:13:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Pawshas@aol.com
writes:
> > not have his kids accepted in the chadorim
>
>
> Chas veShalom! Deprive the children of Chinuch if the father is sinning? I
> assume this was Shigra deLishna and nothing more...
>
While in general your right see RaMoh Y"D 334:6
Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:07:54 EST
From: Tobrr111@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mendelsohn
In a message dated 1/25/00 3:10:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rich wolpoe
writes:
<< How does this prove that Menedelsohnn did not do so out of "eivo"? Often
a
"middle man" will tell X to give in to Y and fro Y to give into X. >>
Your point is well taken. The fact that he wrote a letter to the authorities
does not prove that it wasn't because of eiva. However, my understanding is
that this wasn't really the case. In any case, I think one of the complaints
against Mendelsohn was that he was overly concerned about eiva. Meaning, that
although eiva is a legitimate halachic concern, Mendelsohn was always worried
how Judaism would look in the eyes of his gentile friends even when there was
no danger involved. I saw many times in his writings where he writes about a
certain mitsvah "how will I explain this to my gentile friends?"
In general it is a real shock to me that Mendelsohn is somewhat respected in
MO circles. I had always thought that he was despised by Orthodox Jews all
across the spectrum (and I try to read the literature from all Orthodox
groups). There are a number of members of this list who were talmidim of such
leaders of MO such as RYBS and RA Lichtinstein. Did anybody ever hear them
express an opinion on Mendelsohn?
Also, I think the comparison between some of R. Akiva Eiger ZTVKL descendants
being irreligious and the case of Mendelsohn is unfair. Mendelsohn's children
were not only irreligious but they all converted to other religions. R. Akiva
Eiger had 2 children who were Great Talmidei Chachamim (probably classified
as gedolim), R. Shlomo and R. Avrohom, A son in law who was one of the
greatest gedolim, the Chasam Sofer, and a grandson who was a gadol, R.
Leibile Eiger. Thats a pretty good track record.
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:08:48 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: Mach'oh
Dear R. Yitzchok:
Hypopthetically speaking - would you make a similar macho'oh if people said
positive things about "acheir"?
Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Mach'oh
Author: <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date: 1/25/2000 3:16 PM
How very frum of you.
> I hereby make a public Mach'oh to the defending of MM, V'ani Es NAfshi
> HItzalti.
>
> Kol Tuv
>
> Yitzchok Zirkind
>
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:09:38 -0600
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: Hatzolo, was Mendelsohn
It is unclear whether the reason for permitting Hatzalah to take the call
is because of eivah, or because of darchei Shalom. I paraphrase R' Aharon
Lichtenstein in <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n146.shtml#18>.
He is convinced the two are NOT the same, that darchei Shalom is "ma
ani, af ata" (imitatio dei).
-mi
PS: I compressed the archives. In order to read them, you need to point to
.shtml files, instead of the old .html references (see the example above).
The new files wrap an uncompression script.
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 25-Jan-00: Shelishi, Yisro
micha@aishdas.org A"H
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 104b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:44:45 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: Mendelsohn
fwiw I agree that he probably went TOO far.
But isn't that teh price of balzing a new trail? He had no parameters to guide
him. It's fair to look back and say, let's not go THAT far, but isnt it also
unfair to say he should have known better?
IOW, let's learn from his mistakes, too!
Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Mendelsohn
In any case, I think one of the complaints against Mendelsohn was that he was
overly concerned about eiva. Meaning, that although eiva is a legitimate
halachic concern, Mendelsohn was always worried how Judaism would look in the
eyes of his gentile friends even when there was no danger involved. I saw many
times in his writings where he writes about a certain mitsvah "how will I
explain this to my gentile friends?"
<snip>
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:53:33 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Mach'oh
In a message dated 1/25/00 4:08:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:
> Hypopthetically speaking - would you make a similar macho'oh if people said
> positive things about "acheir"?
>
1) The (so called) positive that is being said for MM SR"Y is on his Shita,
"Acheir" they asked that "Mutav Dlidaynoh" not C"V defense for "Kitzas
B'netiois" (since this was accomplished I place a line break when discussing
the 2).
2) A more appropriate comperison would be to Oisoi Hoish.
3) There is a Lav Sheloi Lhapich Bizchusoi Shel Meisis.
Umisaymim Btoiv, Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:03:43 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[4]: Mach'oh
I'm copnfused are you saying MM had more in common with oso hoish than with
Acher?
Have you answered my original question?
Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Mach'oh
Author: <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date: 1/25/2000 4:57 PM
In a message dated 1/25/00 4:08:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:
> Hypopthetically speaking - would you make a similar macho'oh if people said
> positive things about "acheir"?
>
1) The (so called) positive that is being said for MM SR"Y is on his Shita,
"Acheir" they asked that "Mutav Dlidaynoh" not C"V defense for "Kitzas
B'netiois" (since this was accomplished I place a line break when discussing
the 2).
2) A more appropriate comperison would be to Oisoi Hoish.
3) There is a Lav Sheloi Lhapich Bizchusoi Shel Meisis.
Umisaymim Btoiv, Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:06:02 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Yissachr/Zevulun
I don't have any sources handy, but I would guess that at least someone has
already come up with the idea of fulfiling some of both roles within the same
person.
Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Gershon
(not a Yissachar, but not well off enough to be a Zevulun either)
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:11:52 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Mach'oh
In a message dated 1/25/00 5:03:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:
> I'm copnfused are you saying MM had more in common with oso hoish than with
> Acher?
>
There is a Kabala AFAIR from the Bal Shem tov, that Oisoi Hoish will have a
Tikkun after "Nun Alofim Yoivlois" and MM even then not.
Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:12:51 EST
From: Yzkd@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yissachr/Zevulun
In a message dated 1/25/00 5:05:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:
> I don't have any sources handy, but I would guess that at least someone has
> already come up with the idea of fulfiling some of both roles within the
> same
> person.
>
Bloshon Chazal Torah Ugdulah Bmokom Echod.
Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:17:45 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: Yissachr/Zevulun
aha! what about some who have bits of both w/o being masters of both like
Rebbe?
Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Yissachr/Zevulun
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:
> I don't have any sources handy, but I would guess that at least someone has
> already come up with the idea of fulfiling some of both roles within the
> same
> person.
>
Bloshon Chazal Torah Ugdulah Bmokom Echod.
Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:23:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@ymail.yu.edu>
Subject: Mendelssohn and the singular destiny of the Jewish people
>
R. Bechoffer writes:
> I am not interested in taking more time to peruse Mendelssohn from the
> source texts.
but not uninterested in wasting the time of hundreds of readers
with comments and threats untainted by such persusal.
>
> My understanding of Mendelssohn may find its confirmation in a broad array
> of secondary texts, from Graetz, "History of the Jews" The Epoch of
> Regeneration Chap. 1 (in the edition I have at home, HPC 1919, vol. 5 pp.
> 332-333); to R' Berel Wein's "Triumph of Survival", see p. 45.
Those who rely on these sources as objective history of philosophy, take
heed. You do so at the risk of historical error. Whether that is
significant or not depends on whether intellectual honesty is a virtue &
whether ill-informed bullying is a vice.
>
> Those of you who defend Mendelssohn's theology,
If defense means a desire to get at the truth, I plead guilty.
> take heed and tread warily:
> You do so at your own, significant, peril.
In the course of a long life I have witnessed enough threats that the
novelty has long worn off. One doesn't quite know whether to summon a
lawyer or a bodyguard.
If I weren't preoccupied with more urgent personal matters I might come up
with a snappy retort; then again, I might not. So I will leave this, and
the scholarly issues outstanding, in the hands of others, such as the
jjbaker whom I do not know, but who seems well-informed on the subject.
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:26:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Histaklus BaNashim
--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > This will ultimately become one of the defining
> > characteristics of the RW as the MO will
> undoubtedly
> > never accept this custom.
>
> Gee, I'll make sure to tell all the MO Israelis I
> see whose kids have *long*
> peyos that they must be RW...
>
> Haven't you forgotten that Sephardim *also* wear
> long peyot?
>
> And if MO is the only group that *doesn't* wear
> them, maybe, just maybe, the
> MO are *wrong* this time?
This is not an MO issue. They are not the ones
changing the custom of their fathers. It is the RW. I
can show numerous pictures of recent Gedolei Israel
who DID NOT have payos(e.g. the Rav, R. Ruderman. All
of the Telsher RY's and certainly Lubavitch). Now,
when a Gadol has peyos, it might be considered a hidur
for a man of his position, at least today. But, for at
least the last couple of generations, prior to the
early 60's, no-one ever saw a litvishe bochur with
peayos. Suddenly at about theat time they started
appearing on kids one at a time. This coincided when
the post war baby boomers, i.e. the chidren of the
holocaust (read: Chasidim) started their own elitest
more RW dayschool system. Until that time the the day
school system was more homogeneic and included a mix
of MO RW, Chasidic, and Kiruv students. As for the
Sphardim, it is true that their Mesorah included Peyos
but theirs are a very unique style which is easily
distinguishable from the ashkenazic variety.
For some reason, perhaps to gain acceptability from
the RW some RW Mizrachi are also growing peyos.This is
a really strange phenomenon if you ask me.
BTW I think that there are now 5 distinct types of
peyos: the Chasidic type, usually long and curly, the
Litvishe type, ususally short and behind the ear, the
Brisker type, usually bushy, and the Yeminite usualy
very long and narrow, and the Chazan Ish type,which
are basicly Elvis type sideburns.
Please understand I am not trying to disparage anyone
who has Peyos. I just don't understand why it is now
considered such a big deal to have them by a community
that did not value them at all in the world of pre-
1960.
HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:28:04 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject: Re: Daughters in the Ladies Section (was Histaklus beNashim)
On 25 Jan 00, at 11:06, sambo@charm.net wrote:
> Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
> > But are you teaching her how to daven, or are you teaching her
> > how to sit still in shul? If she can't read yet, then obviously you are
> > teaching her how to sit still in shul, and that's an important lesson.
> > But what will happen when she can read and you want to teach her
> > how to daven?
> We make time for that at home. Sometimes she'll sit in shul with a
> siddur and say the alef-bet while pointing to the letters, but learning
> time is at home. She'll grab her alef-bet book and come running. And we
> do tefillot ba'al peh for now. So she gets some of both.
That doesn't teach her how to answer dvarim shebikdusha, and that
is what she needs to hear from someone sitting next to her.
Funny story (which all of you will PLEASE not tell my daughter
that I told in this august forum :-). When my eldest was 2.5 years
old, we were davening in Yeshiva and had gone out to say Kiddush
Levana on a Motzei Shabbos. During the Kaddish after Kiddush
Levana this child screamed out at the top of her lungs "Amen,
Y'Hei...." The look on the Rosh Yeshiva's face was priceless :-)
> It could be that my daughter gets more attention in this area than some
> kids, since I'm constantly trying to keep up with "fixing" what she
> learns from Morah Goldie. But it's not that difficult and quite
> rewarding.
Do I dare ask what you are fixing? In my case, I find myself trying
to get my kids to daven in Ashkenazis (al titosh toras emecha and
all that) as opposed to the Israeli "Sphardit" they hear in school
and on the streets. I am much more successful with the boys than
with the girls. You can guess why....
> Anyway, I wasn't trying to impose my own experience on the discussion. I
> just wanted to illustrate my thought that once the girls understand
> seperate seating I don't see why they'd want to sit in the mens'
> section.
Ah, but that's the issue. You see, I don't think the girls really
understand separate seating until they're at an age that's a bit
beyond where I feel comfortable taking them into the men's
section. That's why I raised the issue. Chana pointed out (and I
think correctly) that one should not let it get to the point where it
becomes an issue of "you may no longer sit in the men's section
because you are...." So there is a fine line that has to be drawn,
and I am trying to get some feedback on where others draw it
(together with sources if anyone has any).
> but from my
> > experience, most schools do a woefully inadequate job of teaching
> > our children what is said in davening outside of school.
> Absolutely. So it's up to us. What do I have to do that's more important
> than teaching my kids to daven?
You cannot do a complete job of teaching your child how to daven
without s/he hearing davening in shul in a manner so that they can
figure out what everyone is saying. A 4-year old (well, most 4-year
olds) cannot really do that yet.
And what do you do with a child who cannot sit still? I would argue
that child does not belong in shul. (Cf. Mishna Brura 589:18). One
of my daughters reached the point of being able to sit still in shul
around the time that I felt she was old enough to belong in the
ladies' section. Now what? Well, we are doing the best we can with
her, but I cannot tell you honestly how much of the tzibbur part of
davening she does or does not know how to answer properly - I
have no way to check, and my wife is home with an infant....
Bottom line - it isn't always so simple.
> > disturb in shul), and if you don't teach her how to follow in the
> > siddur, she will not learn it until much, much later.
> I agree wholeheartedly. But I don't think shul is the place for that
> instruction.
Then how do you propose to teach her to answer Kdusha and
Kaddish and Barchu and so on?
> > If you bring your daughter to shul, and there is another
> > minyan going in the ladies section, or she cannot hear from the
> > ladies section, or the ladies section abuts two different minyan
> > rooms, and once the second minyan starts she can no longer hear
> > the first one, she is not going to want to sit there once she is old
> > enough to have to sit there and to understand what is happening.
>
>
>
> Then it's probably time to find another shul.
Easier said than done. Most of the shuls in my neighborhood are
still in caravans without ladies sections, four years after the first
pioneers moved in. In our shul (no longer in a caravan since
Succos B"H), the ladies section can hear netz (if they sit at the
edge that is closest to our room), but in the winter the second
minyan (and yes, I am talking about Shabbos) starts at 7:30, which
is 30-45 minutes before netz finishes. The ladies section is
officially open for the second minyan (I don't know how much they
can hear, but I suspect it is not a whole lot), and the third minyan
starts at 8:15 in the same room that the first one vacates around
then. And this is one of the best situations for women davening in
shul in our neighborhood.
My point is that a lot of davening situations for women are less
than ideal, and you have to work with what is available. In a perfect
world, all children would come to shul from the age of 2-3 and sit
silently absorbing what goes on around them. The girls would go to
the ladies section at an age to be determined :-) already knowing
how to handle tfilla b'tzibur.
Let me know if all your kids IY"H turn out to be such malochim :-)
-- Carl
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.
Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
Go to top.
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:28:05 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject: RE: Histaklus BaNashim
On 25 Jan 00, at 20:30, Akiva Atwood wrote:
> > This will ultimately become one of the defining
> > characteristics of the RW as the MO will undoubtedly
> > never accept this custom.
>
> Gee, I'll make sure to tell all the MO Israelis I see whose kids have *long*
> peyos that they must be RW...
Actually some of them may be talmidim of Mercaz HaRav Kook
and various mosdos associated with it.
There are a lot of kids with peyos in the shtachim.
Also, on this subject, someone attributed peyos in America to the
Hungarians who arrived after the Holocaust. How do you explain
that nearly every kid in the Litvishe Chadorim here has peyos?
-- Carl
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.
Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
Go to top.
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