Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 303

Tuesday, January 18 2000

• Re: mixed dancing
• Going to movies.
• Re[2]: Charedi vs. MO
• Re: New York Times
• Re: New York Times
• Re: Avodah V4 #302
• Re: New York Times
• Charedi vs. MO
• Going to movies. - humor
• Re: Charedi vs. MO
• Alcharar Book
• Re: use of chareidi on Avodah
• Re: use of chareidi on Avodah
• Re: New York Times
• Re[2]: Modern Orthodox narrow mindness
• Re: Anonymity of RW
• Re: Agunot: News flash from the Beit Din Rabbani in Tel Aviv
• Conservatives
• MO and the Rav
• Re: Sridei Aish
• Re: Sephardik vs. Ashkenazik pronunciation
• Shulhan ha-Ezer
• Mixed Dancing

In a message dated 1/18/00 8:45:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

> not everyone who sees a women (even dancing) 
>  gazes erotically.  That's why you need the cherem

So we make a Cherem in order to Bavoren those that will have erotic thoughts.

The Cherem was not on seeing but on dancing together.  

IMHO Hirhur is Doireisa, who (case in point R' Yochonon Oilei Ayin) what when 
and where may (or may not) change (Lhokeil or Lhachmir) based on social 
behavior, hence (when in doubt) it is alot safer to keep away from Issur, by 
not being put in the position where the one who can get efected may get 
effected, as we pray every day "Val T'vieinu Lydei Nisoyoin".

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

> I have
>  many friends who are squarely in the RW camp, and so
>  identify themselves, yet they...go to movies, 

What kind of movies? (I think the question is understod).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Permit me to elaborate.

Chareidi - by my definition - is in fear, in fear of contact with "outsiders". 
Lubavich does NOT fear outsiders - netiher goyim nor the unfrum.

Lubavich is not afraid of new technology

Lubavich is not afraid of spreading out as opposed to humddling together.

Lubavich is not afraid of English or french or spanish or Russian etc.  Au 
contraire, Lubavich is in the forefront of using mass  media to "get out the 
word".

Lubavich is in effect more "open" and "wordly"  These are indeed aspects of 
Avorhom Avinu.

The point is that Avrohom said that" "society is broken let's got out and fix 
it.

Yitzchok might had said Soceity is broken let's stay inside (either to fix it 
internally or to avoid it out of "yir'oh")

Yaakov played both games. When he was a Yosheiv ohholim he avoided the outer 
world, but in Lovon's house it was thrust upon him.

Ein kaan mekomo lehaarich

Rich Wolpoe





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Charedi vs. MO  


and fwiw in many ways I consider Lubavich "modern".

Rich W.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Charedi vs. MO 


Lubavitch shluchim claim (and rightly so, imho) that _their_ behavior 
follows Avrohom Avinu.

-- Eric

As Far as I'm concerned the NY Times is just as "prejudiced" as Yated - 
virtually all media is slanted.  And AFAIK, the Times has always been slanted 
wrt their opnions, etc, even to the point of pervading the "news" columns. 

In terms of staying within the bounds of good-taste, AFAIK, the shift to greater
prtizus  is just another "Sign of The TIMEs" is it not? <big grin>

Rich Wolpoe 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Perhaps a little talk from the pulpit about the turn the Times has taken?

<snip>

Greetings (and regards to Saul) from beautiful downtown Sdom. 
Gershon

In a message dated 1/18/00 2:14:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

> Greetings (and regards to Saul) from beautiful downtown Sdom

One should not say Kisdom Hayinu, SHimu Dvar Hashem Ktzinei...

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 00-01-18 13:59:07 EST, you write:

<< 
  > <<Yated itself uses the Internet in a way that has been halachically
  > approved by the special beis din  >>
 
 <<And which beis din approved all the hotza'as sheim rah against Rav Kook
  that 
 they knowingly published,as recorded in Rabbi Alcharar's book "Lichvodah
 shel 
 Torah"?>>
 
    I have tried,  but cannot for the life of me figure out how this
 statement,  if it in fact is mutar al pi din (probably NOT),  ties in to
 the discussion.
  >>
What I mentioned is available in Rabbi Alcharar's book, which was published 
with the appproval of Gedolei Torah in Eretz Yisroel, including Rav Zalman 
Nechemiah Goldberg and Rav Shaul Yisraeli. Althougfh that book refers to 
matters published in the Israeli Yated, I saw the same material published in 
the American version even after the editorship had been informed of the 
distortions involved.My point is that Yated is hardly a source to look to in 
determining what is or is not halachically permissible, seeing that they are 
selective regarding which areas of halacha they bother to observe.

On 18 Jan 00, at 14:22, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> As Far as I'm concerned the NY Times is just as "prejudiced" as Yated - 
> virtually all media is slanted.  And AFAIK, the Times has always been slanted 
> wrt their opnions, etc, even to the point of pervading the "news" columns. 

If you think the Times is slanted, you should try reading HaAretz 
some day. If you think I'm kidding, go to their English web site 
(www.haaretz.co.il) and read any news story remotely connected 
to politics or religion. 

At least HaAretz usually skips the photography that generally 
permeates Maariv and Yediot....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

>>Lubavitch shluchim claim (and rightly so, imho) that _their_ behavior
>>follows Avrohom Avinu.

(with a super major emphasis on chesed and ahavas)

>and fwiw in many ways I consider Lubavich "modern".

I must admit, that's the first time I've heard Lubavitch called "modern"!!!

-- Eric

The Chosen (dubbed Der Chosson in Yiddish)

Goy Story 

Citizen Kane about a litvak who was known as Cohen to non-Litvaks

Gone with the Wind - or how my sukkah blew away before even saying Mashiv 
Horuach

Shtar Wars - about the machklokes re: pre-nups

As Good as it Gets - about a dozen agunas get freed when their recalcitrant 
husbands find themselves face with R Moshe Boruch (aka Rambo)

Rich Wolpoe





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Going to movies. 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/18/2000 2:19 PM



> I have
>  many friends who are squarely in the RW camp, and so 
>  identify themselves, yet they...go to movies, 

What kind of movies? (I think the question is understod).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

See my subsequent post

Modern is meant in terms of OPEN as opposed to insular.

They are not so modern in terms of being open to new "ideas" or shitos, but they
are modern in terms of being open to diverse people, inter-acting with society 
as opposed to avoiding it, being open to technology instead of fighting it, etc.

I attribute this kinds of modernism to the Avorhom Avinu element, and their 
staedfast adherence to certain ideologies as part of the Yitachok element.  
after all, wasn't Chabad conceived as a hybrid of Chasidus and traditional 
Litvisher Lomuds

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Charedi vs. MO 

>>Lubavitch shluchim claim (and rightly so, imho) that _their_ behavior 
>>follows Avrohom Avinu.

(with a super major emphasis on chesed and ahavas)

>and fwiw in many ways I consider Lubavich "modern".

I must admit, that's the first time I've heard Lubavitch called "modern"!!!

-- Eric

On 18 Jan 00, at 14:28, JoshHoff@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 00-01-18 13:59:07 EST, you write:
> 
> << 
>   > <<Yated itself uses the Internet in a way that has been halachically
>   > approved by the special beis din  >>
>  
>  <<And which beis din approved all the hotza'as sheim rah against Rav Kook
>   that 
>  they knowingly published,as recorded in Rabbi Alcharar's book "Lichvodah
>  shel 
>  Torah"?>>
>  
>     I have tried,  but cannot for the life of me figure out how this
>  statement,  if it in fact is mutar al pi din (probably NOT),  ties in to
>  the discussion.
>   >>
> What I mentioned is available in Rabbi Alcharar's book, which was published 
> with the appproval of Gedolei Torah in Eretz Yisroel, including Rav Zalman 
> Nechemiah Goldberg and Rav Shaul Yisraeli. 

This is very interesting if only because AFAIK (unless I have them 
mixed up) most people would look at RZNG shlita and RSY zt"l as 
cutting across "party lines." (For those who don't know, one is 
RSZA zt"l's son in law and the other was affiliated with Yeshivat 
Mercaz HaRav).

OTOH I have no idea who R. Alcharar is and what was written in 
his book, and I don't think I want to know either.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 1/18/00 12:57:56 PM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< Following up on what I wrote this morning, I think Passaic has a 
 large percentage of people who grew up "out of town." 
 
 -- Carl (former Passaic resident who lives in the only better place in 
 the world :-) 
  >>

Really! When did you move to Trenton, Carl?

David Finch

On 18 Jan 00, at 14:51, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/18/00 12:57:56 PM US Central Standard Time, 
> cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:
> 
> << Following up on what I wrote this morning, I think Passaic has a 
>  large percentage of people who grew up "out of town." 
>  
>  -- Carl (former Passaic resident who lives in the only better place in 
>  the world :-) 
>   >>
> 
> Really! When did you move to Trenton, Carl?

Trenton? Who said Trenton? I meant Mississippi :-) 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 02:22:26PM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: As Far as I'm concerned the NY Times is just as "prejudiced" as Yated - 
: virtually all media is slanted.

My definition of "yellow journalism": A news medium whose slant differs from
mine. <semi-grin>

That said, I eschew the NY Times because of the advertizing. Interestingly in
light of recent events, the online version is more tzenu'ah than the hardcopy.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 18-Jan-00: Shelishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 101a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Lich'orah For a "debate" to find emes, one or more sides needs to be modeh al 
ho'emes..

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Modern Orthodox narrow mindness 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< Debate is about trying to prove one's position, not about reaching a 
greater
 understanding of Emes. >>

I have a book by Rabbi Zvi Lampel called "The Dynamics of Dispute: The Making 
of Machlokess in Talmudic Times." Rabbi Lampel makes the opposite point, that 
debate is all about reaching a greater understanding of Emes, not about 
"proof," which is a rhetorical concept in the first place when applied to 
halachic learning.

Who's right here?

David Finch

It is important to the future of Avodah that we keep this list as someplace
welcoming to all flavors of Orthodoxy. The key focus of Avodah should always
be the cross polinization of idea that will strengthen our Avodas Hashem.

I don't share others' reluctance to acknowledge the existence various
camps. However, that is given that each are treated with respect, acknowledging
the weight of those gedolei hador and ba'alei mesorah who forged that derech,
in a true sense of "eilu va'eilu divrei E-lokim Chaim". Insulting comments
about one or more ideologies or its adherents is outside the realm of darchei
no'am and acceptable material for Avodah.

On Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 10:36:31PM +0100, David Herskovic wrote:
: PS My spell checker when confronted with chareidi suggested charade.
: Must've been exposed to Avodah.

This is in violation of the membership agreement and multiple darchei no'am
alerts (DNAs) that I sent him by private email.

It is therefore my sad and awkward duty to let the chevrah know that David
has been dropped from the list.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 18-Jan-00: Shelishi, Beshalach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 101a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Rabbanit Shoshana L. Boublil was kind enough to inform us of
developments with the Beit Din in Tel Aviv.  I'd like to provide an
American data point.  The Bet Din of America has made available its
standards regarding get proceedings under their auspices.  The
document, and their web page in general, was most interesting.

The following comes from the "Standards and Guidelines with respect to
Get Proceedings at the Beth Din of America," which can be found at
their web page: http://www.bethdin.org/publications/standardsget.htm

    9. When a husband and wife agree to come to the Beth Din to
       adjudicate financial (and where appropriate, custodial) matters
       relating to the end of their marriage, the Beth Din of America
       finalizes the Get at the beginning of the proceeding between the
       parties.

Kol Tuv,

David

Marat Chana Luntz writes:

>Sorry, I think I misunderstood the thrust of what you were saying.  From
>your response I now gather that you mean to include in the discussion
>only those people who can be considered to have significant Torah
>scholarship.  On the other hand, I assumed you to mean people who claim
>to identify with a halachic way, and who start off within Orthodoxy.
>That is, I understood the debate to be about whether there is, today,
>any movement from Orthodoxy to Conservative, and if so, whether
>ideological belief/practical halachic rulings play any part in such a
>movement (and if it does, what sort of ideological belief, paralleling
>the Torah m'Sinai issues of previous generations).  That is, does the
>Conservative movement have any idealogical pull for people within
>Orthodoxy, does it pose any kind of idealogical threat for people with
>Orthodoxy?  My understanding of the debate, which may well be erroneous,
>was that you were arguing that, while it may previously have had, it no
>longer does, and that Janet was querying that assertion.

Thanks for the clarification.  I think the correct answer, in the United
States at least, is that the Conservative movement has very little
ideological attraction for people raised Orthodox compared to previous
generations.  There are always exceptions, and I agree with Janet that
women's issues do play a role in determining the affiliation of some.
However (and perhaps this is what Janet was referring to in her
reference to marginalization), even those who affiliate with the
Conservative movement because of women's issues often do so
"reluctantly," wishing they could be part of the Orthodox community and
accepted by it.  This is a far cry from those who, one or two
generations ago, embraced Conservative ideology as more modern, more
enlightened and more correct.  (Again Louis Jacobs springs to mind.)

I think the situation in Israel is different and potentially far more
explosive.  While the Masorti movement there is still tiny, I think
there is a far larger group of people who classify themselves as "dati"
who would be very comfortable with Conservative ideology and likely
prefer the Conservative approach to women's issues.  Unfortunately, I
think the next decade or so will demonstrate whether I am correct.

The phenomenon described by Mr. Finch seems to confirm my impression, as
certain Jews continue to be drawn to the freer lifestyle that is
socially accepted among Conservative Jews.

R. Jeff Zuckerman (the "R." can stand for Reb, as well as Rabbi)
writes:

>	On the other hand, I am not persuaded by those who wrote that
><<while RYBS taught that the Medinah had religious significance, he did NOT
>define that significance in terms of any messianic notions.>>  In an address
>to a Mizrachi Convention, the Rav said (according to an English translation
>of a Hebrew translation of the Yiddish original):  <<If I now identify with
>the Mizrachi, against my family tradition, it is only because, as previously
>clarified I feel that Divine Providence ruled like <Joseph> and against his
>brothers; that He employs secular Jews as instruments to bring to fruition
>His great plans regarding the land of Israel.>>  (The Rav Speaks, p.36.)  To
>me, this last clause sounds like it is based upon messianic notions.  I
>presume, however, that it sounds different to others.

I am one of those who subscribes to the notion that the Rav did not
ascribe any mesianic significance to the State of Israel.  (A group that
includes his closest talmidim in both the yeshiva and academic worlds).
You are of course entitled to your opinion.  But that statement does not
contain any of the explicit or implicit buzzwords of messianism (ketz,
ikveta de-meshiha, ge'ulah), nor do any other of the Rav's published
writing on the subject.  Indeed, when viewed in the context of his total
ouevre, the passage you quote seems to affirm the Divine role that the
Rav saw in the establishment of the State and his notion that restoring
Jewish sovereignty to the Land of Israel qualifies as a great plan.

>	I am also not persuaded by the statement that <<the Rav was unique
>and cannot be fit conveniently into a label, MO or otherwise.  He
>transcended many of the communal divisions within Orthodoxy and did so by
>choice.>>  Many (if not most, if not all) people are unique, but that does
>not necessarily preclude labeling them, as long as one defines the label.

This last statement is pure sophistry.  R. Lichtenstein, who knew the
Rav better than most, is saying that  the Rav's uniqueness makes him
difficult to categorize and, moreover, that he did not wish to be
categorized.  This is especially true regarding a categorization like
"Modern Orthodoxy" which has almost as many definitions as it has it has
adherents.

In any case, R. Lichtenstein himself is clearly identified with a more
modern approach to the world and he does not engage in the kind of Rav
revisionism that is currently in fashion.  What he objected to was the
invocation of the Rav's name by people whose agenda the Rav did not
share.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

What Carl is referring to (republishing of the Sridei Aish) came out
last year. The Tshuvot have been retypeset and the sefer now comes
with an index. I think I paid about 80 NIS ($20) for the 2 volume
set last year.

Josh

Have you had a chance to ask if you can make a copy?

Ari



Sammy Ominsky wrote:

> Ari Z. Zivotofsky wrote:
>
> > motivations?)? Is anyone familiar
> > with scholarly and halachik research that discusses how and
> > when the various pronunciations of Hebrew developed and which are more
> > "authentic"? Thanks.
>
> I have to ask before I offer; am I allowed to make a copy of a cassette I
> made in shiur if someone else sells copies labelled by the Yeshiva?
>
> If so, I'll make you a copy of R' Meir Mazuz speaking on just your topic.
>
> If not, I'll lend it to you.
>
> ---sam

R. Sadya Targum writes:

>I admit my am ha'aretz status. I am unaware of the identities of these
>renowned poskim.

The Shulhan ha-Ezer was written by R. Yitzhak Zevi Lebovits, who lived
at the end of the nineteenth and beginning of the twentieth century.
The Shulhan ha-Ezer is an important halakhic work relating to issues of
kiddushin and nisuin.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

For sources on mixed dancing, R. Yitzchok Zirkind has provided a good
number.  Below is the list of sources I compiled (taken from a footnote
in my mixed seating article).

See, e.g., Kol Bo III, no. 66, D. Abraham, ed. (Jerusalem, 1993), p.
217; R. Benjamin b. Matthew, Binyamin Ze+ev II, nos. 203-08 (Jerusalem,
1959), pp. 224-47; R. Solomon Luria, Yam shel Shelomoh, Gittin, chap. 1,
no. 18, pp. 3a-b; R. David ha-Cohen, She+elot u-Teshuvot ha-Radakh, no.
12; R. Isaiah Horowitz, Shenei Luhot ha-Berit, Sha`ar ha-Otiyyot,
Kedushat ha-Zivvug, no. 6 (Jerusalem, 1993), p. 136; R. Joseph
Steinhardt, Zikhron Yosef, no. 17 (Fuerth, 1773), pp. 22b-23a; R. Jacob
Ettlinger, Binyan Tziyyon, no. 139 (1868), p. 59a; R. Judah Aszod,
She+elot u-Teshuvot Mariya (Yehudah Ya`aleh) I, Orah Hayyim, no. 91, p.
33b; R. Zvi Elimelekh Shapiro, Derekh Pekudekha, Negative Commandment
35:14, pp. 84b-85a; R. Hayyim Hezekiah Medini, Sedei Hemed, Ma`arekhet
Hatan ve-Kallah ve-Huppah, no. 12, pp. 27-31; R. Yehiel Mikhel Epstein,
`Arukh ha-Shulhan, Orah Hayyim 529:7, Even ha-`Ezer 22:3; R. Israel Meir
ha-Cohen, Bi+ur Halakhah, Orah Hayyim 339:3, s.v. le-hakel ba-kol; R.
Isaac Zvi Lebovits, Shulhan ha-`Ezer 9:2, p. 71a.  Cf. the communal
decrees against mixed dancing cited above, p. 12, and in R. Israel
Schepansky, Ha-Takkanot be-Yisrael IV (Jerusalem, 1993), pp. 236-37.
For a fuller treatment of the issue of mixed dancing, see Samuel Katz,
Kedoshim Tihyu, chap. 4 (Jerusalem, n.d.), pp. 35-57.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

*********************


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