Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 222

Monday, December 27 1999

• Re: May-ain Sheva (MB index)
• Re: Kollel and sustenance
• Re: a humble pixel
• "Batlanim"
• An Economist's View of Charedim
• Nogeah
• (Fwd) Fw: [Efrat] Searching for a young couple on both sides o
• [none]
• Re[4]: problem kids
• Re: "Batlanim"
• Apikores
• R. Soloveitchik on peace
• Chilul Hashem
• Pragmatism
• Slap in the Face
• Re: Pragmatism
• Saving lives
• Re:

Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net> writes in v4n217:
: According to my siddur, (Ish Mazliah) during Halel Gamur we answer:
: Kaddish - 5 Amens and Amen YSh"R until D'Amiran Be'Alma

According to RYBS, only "Amein YSh"R" and the final "Amein" are lihalachah,
the rest are minhag. So, for example, he would only give these two responses
between Ge'ulah liTifilah during ma'ariv. I wonder what he holds WRT hallel.

: Kedusha - Kadosh and Baruch
: Modim DeRabanan - Only the words "Modim Anahnu Lach"

A question about the sevara here:
Why are these three words different than the rest of Modim diRabbanan?

: Barechu - Answer
: Berachot - Answer

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Dec-99: Levi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 90a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 12/27/99 3:16:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 Reading this and the earlier comment about the Gra lead me to the same
 conclusion mentioned later by Akiva Atwood. I'm not sure Yeshivos produce
 gedolim. All the stories that come to mind (including RYBS) involve learning
 in a one-on-one situation.
 
 Perhaps this is also part of the riddle as to why the US hasn't produced its
 share of native gedolim. With universal education, fewer people have reason
 to resort to that kind of one-on-one setting.
 
 -mi
  >>
See  Avoda Zara 5: -   "..Sheneamar vaolech etchem bamidbar arbaim shana 
uktiv vlo natan hashem  lachem lev..    amar rabah shma mina lo kai inish 
adateh drabeh ad arbain shnin"!

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 12/27/99 2:21:06 PM US Central Standard Time, 
nwitty@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< Not only does your response not address my question, Mr. Finch, it's
 tone is
 insulting and, to my mind, violates DN rules applicable here >>

You have my very sincere apologies, Mr. Witty. I certainly didn't mean to 
violate the DN rules, which I respect. 

On the other hand, I meant what I said -- if you take my words literally. The 
thread of discussion on this point, as I recall, is whether certain varieties 
of classic Idealism (e.g., Bishop Berkeley's point about a tree falling in a 
forest where no one can see or hear it fall) imply, ipso facto, that there is 
no Torah and therefore there is no obligation to follow Torah. My point was 
that Bishop Berkeley ("Bishop," that is, of the Irish Catholic church) didn't 
believe his philosophy obviated the existence of G-d. He didn't believe it 
relieved individuals of their obligations to adhere to Church dogma. Had he 
been Rabbi Berkeley, he would have said that Torah isn't imaginary, HaShem 
isn't imaginary, but that maybe individual human existence is in some sense 
imaginary. I don't know Berkeley's writings very well at all, and perhaps 
have misstated it, but his ideas give food for thought that we are, as Mrs. 
Atwood says, just pixels in G-d's imagination.

David Finch

>I recall learning once that a city has several obligations, >including the
>support of ten "batlanim", defined as people whose do nothing but
>full-time Torah learning. Where can I find the sources for this?



Mishnayot Megillah opens up with a discussion of the date for the reading of 
the Megillah in different places. A "big city" must read on the 14th of 
Adar. 1:3 discusses: "Ayze hu iyr gedolah? Kol sheyesh bah asarah 
batlanim/what is a "big city? Whichever has 10 batlanim".

The Rambam has a tshuva dealing with this. He quotes a Yerushalmi which the 
questioner quoted incorrectly. : Rabbi Yehuda says "Kigon anu sheyn anu 
tzrichim litalmideynu/like us (he and his colleagues are batlanim) because 
we are no longer in need of study."

What?! Rabbi Yehuda says that he no longer needs to study??!!

Yes. The Rambam explains that these 10 batlanim are people who have already 
mastered Torah shebal peh and shebichtav and therefore they can make up a 
minyan if need be. And so any city with 10 people who no longer need to 
study (and they can be mivatel their time for a minyan) has no excuse not to 
read the Megilla in its proper time - they have a ready minyan.

Now we have the opportunity to engage in our favorite pastime - Gedolim 
worshipping. "Wow, imagine that! Rabbi Yehuda knew all of Torah shebal peh! 
and every big city had at least ten people like that! They knew the ktzot, 
Maharsha, Tosafot, Rashash, Rabbeinu Peretz, etc. WOW!"

Forgive me for interfering but the Rambam is very explicit in this letter 
and in others as to what "knowing all of torah shebal peh" means. It means 
all of psak as it is contained in the Talmud vizulato. As a matter of fact 
he went ahead and wrote 14 volumes compiling all of this info. He called it 
the Mishna Torah.

But isn't the Mishna Torah for making chilukim and diyukim? Nope. The Rambam 
wrote in the Hakdama that henceforth one need only 2 sforim - this one and 
Tanach. He even states explicitly in another letter that he is certain that 
after his death his mission will be accomplished and the Mishna Torah will 
replace the Gemara.

A prominent Rosh Yeshiva who advocates the memorization of the taryag 
mitzvot followed by a study of the Yad in order to know how to keep the 
Mitzvot, says the following but only in the strictest of confidence: The way 
that Yeshivot learn today is Avodah Perech. Firstly, there's no toelet. Who 
remembers what they learnt from one year to the next? So you figured out a 
way to explain how the Ran is Lishitato. So? Secondly, there's no end in 
sight. Just keep learning day in and day out. Until when? Forever, there's 
no end.

Does anybody care to know Torah anymore? Nowadays it's all an intellectual 
exercise.

The Rambam broke up the yad into 1000 chapters. Learn them and give each 
chapter a heading and memorize that heading. Now you know all of Torah 
shebal peh as far as Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon is concerned.

Naturally there is much more to say on this subject but I think that I'll 
stop here. Firstly, it is very frustrating to argue an idea which (once it's 
understood) is rather self evident yet the establishment (hence the masses) 
considers heresy and won't even consider. Secondly, mitzva lo lomar davar 
shelo nishma.


If I came across harsh please know that was not my intention. I hope I do 
not hurt anyone's feelings. Erev Tov.

Moshe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
> Subject: An Economist's View of Chareidim
> 
> Is it just my ignorance, or does the study ignore the existence of a yeitzer
> hatov?
> 
> To put it in less religious terms: He discusses the value added to communal
> membership, and therefore can discuss the cost of expressing that membership
> in relation to it.
> 
> However, he overlooks the fact that many people spend money to assuage their
> conscience -- IOW, just to do what they believe to be the right thing.

I didn't read the entire article, but I think he does discuss the fact 
that much (most) Chessed is done anonymously. That would 
mitigate the point that people do chessed as a cost of membership 
in Charedi society, and argue in favor of the Yetzer HaTov.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> Subject: nogeah
> 
> > Barak is also a nogei'ah bidavar, as his political ambitions are tied to a
> > particular result.
> > 
> Rav Ovadiah Yosef is supposed to come out witha psak about returning
> the Golan even though that impacts on the negotiations between Shas
> and Barak over budget issues. Ovbiously Rav Yosef does not feel
> that every interest results in a negiah badavar.

I think the argument being made is that the two issues are 
independent. 

If that tshuva is ever published (as opposed to publicized), I will be 
very curious to see if he deals with the question of whether he (or 
anyone else connected with Maayan HaChinuch) is a nogeah 
badavar, and, if he concludes that he is, why it is okay to give a 
psak under those circumstances. Torah hi ullemoda ani tzarich.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Anyone have any ideas?

-- Carl

------- Forwarded message follows -------
From:           	"DANNY & BATYA EHRLICH" <DANBAT@actcom.co.il>
To:             	Informal Aliyah discussion group <tachlis@shamash.org>
Subject:        	Fw: [Efrat] Searching for a young couple on both sides of the Atlantic
Date sent:      	Mon, 27 Dec 1999 19:46:51 +0200


-----Original Message-----
From: Minister of Mission <bendavid@israelemb.org>
To: 'philch@horizon.barak-online.net' <philch@horizon.barak-online.net>
Cc: 'Marcia Frank' <frank@h2.hum.huji.ac.il>; efrat@webskills.co.il
<efrat@webskills.co.il>; 'editor@jewishweek.org' <editor@jewishweek.org>;
'rocdavis@erols.com' <rocdavis@erols.com>
Date: Monday, December 27, 1999 7:29 PM
Subject: [Efrat] Searching for a young couple on both sides of the Atlantic


>Dear Friends,
>
>A package of seforim arrived at the Embassy of Israel in Washington this
>week.  It bore no address whatsoever.  Obviously someone at the post office
>had opened it, somehow had recognized its Jewish/Hebrew content, and for
>some reason decided to send it over to the Embassy rather than throw it
onto
>the deadletter pile.  Luckily, someone in the mail room recognized its
>religious content and brought it up to me.
>
>The contents are clearly part of a young couple's library.  Please help me
>find them!  These seforim have come too far to go ownerless.
>
>The box contains half of a new Shas, and a handful of Artscroll-type of
>books, including books for brides and grooms.
>
>It appears that the couple got married about six months ago.
> Her name: Naomi Freeman.
> His name: Justin (Yehuda) Goldberg
>
>Another clue:  An author named Malka Kaganoff personally signed her book
>entitled "Dear Kallah" and dedicated it to Naomi.  Does anyone know Malka
>Kaganoff?  (Irony of irony, based on the book's dedication to her husband,
>Yirmiyahu, I may have attended grade school with her brother-in-law.)
>
>Last clue:  The chattan or kallah received a sefer Tehillim at Elchanan
>Greenberg's "aufrauf" in Jerusalem six months ago.
>
>Please pass this email around to communities which may help.  I also
>contacted The Jewish Press.
>
>Lenny Ben-David
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> T H E     E F R A T    C O M M U N I T Y    M A I L I N G   L I S T
> Sponsored by VOICES         Sharon Katz            izzy@actcom.co.il
>               WebSkills Internet Content & Marketing:
> e-mail: info@webskills.co.il   web: http://www.webskills.co.il
>

------------------------ tachlis@shamash.org -----------------------+
Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium  http://shamash.org
------------------------ tachlis@shamash.org -----------------------=


------- End of forwarded message -------
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

<<<<<Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 22:42:44 EST
From: Pawshas@aol.com
Subject: Moshe Rabbeinu's Free Will

The Meshech Chachmah (Hakdamah to Shemos) asks how HaShem could say,
regarding Moshe, "veGam Becha Yaaminu LeOlam." How can HaShem give Moshe's
words the authority of law in advance, if Moshe has the right to decide one
day that he wants to leave it all behind?

The Meshech Chachmah resolves the problem by saying that Moshe achieved the
highest heights of purity, and so HaShem removed his Bechirah; thus, every
time Moshe spoke from then on, it was without Bechirah, and HaShem could be
sure that Moshe would not mis-speak.

So here's the question - how did Moshe come to hit the rock?

Mordechai>>>>>>>


In order for the Jewish people to trust his relating of prophecy G-d only 
needed to remove Moshe's free will vis a vis recording G-d's Torot. There 
was no reason for Moshe's free will to be removed for anything else 
including hitting the rock.

Moshe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

so my follow up  is

given that's ok for baalei batim who cannot or will not learn to support ate 
leas SOMEBODY who is learning

BUT

What of the case where the ball habayis funding the kollel is at a higher 
madreigo in learning than the kollnieck he's suopporing?

hmmmmm, I really wonder what RSZA's psa would be in THAT case....

Rich W./

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: problem kids  


RSZA's psak was, obviously, yes, Klal Yisroel needs to foot the bill.




> But do we need to foot the bill for this? 
>
> Indeed leve anyone and everyone come to learn, but who says they should 
or have
> the right to be mitztareich es habriyos? 
>
> Rich Wolpoe
>

I think there IS a tolese to learningand forgetting.

Learning halacho lemaase is in the ralm of the Naaseh

Leraning lishmo w/o any hope of repeating it is part of nishna, the process 
itself is letoeles, the time sepnd working and growing and analyzing and 
thinking is letoeles.  The drech in learning is letoeles.  the ability to expand
one's learning ability is letoe'les, the lost material is a chaval but not ispo 
facto a total loss.

Truly, I agree that there MUST be learning of basics such as KSA or MB in order 
to be able to function as frume yid, but that is the a pre-requsitie to the 
Naase. Learning lishma is a process not a destination.

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>

A prominent Rosh Yeshiva who advocates the memorization of the taryag 
mitzvot followed by a study of the Yad in order to know how to keep the 
Mitzvot, says the following but only in the strictest of confidence: The way 
that Yeshivot learn today is Avodah Perech. Firstly, there's no toelet. Who 
remembers what they learnt from one year to the next? So you figured out a 
way to explain how the Ran is Lishitato. So? Secondly, there's no end in 
sight. Just keep learning day in and day out. Until when? Forever, there's 
no end.

<snip>
______________________________________________________ 

>Actually, I do not think anybody treats the Kosel as an AZ, and I >think
>Leibowitz was an apikores. I find, however, that extreme attachments >to 
>the
>land qua land to the dismissal of more important values has the >potential 
>to
>make one sympathetic to some of Leibowitz's viewpoints.



It might be preferable to refrain from applying the coveted title of 
apikores to people with different or strange shitot (even if they themselves 
weren't always careful regarding the titles which they attached to others). 
History has shown us that ridiyfa almost never helps - as a matter of fact, 
it usually causes much harm.

Also, if we can, let's cut the intellectual highfaluten treatment of the 
desecration of Har Habayit. Anybody read Paul Johnson's _The Intellectuals_? 
I think that a little pain over what's going on is in order, after that we 
can discuss practical measures to be taken or ignored. The Midrash relates 
that Iyov cried when he was suffering and G-d asked him why he didn't speak 
out when Pharoh suggested drowning Jewish boys. His response was that after 
he saw Pharoh's treatment of Yitro he realised that protesting wouldn't 
help. So why are you crying now when you lost everything and you are in 
pain? "Uyb su tit vie shroyt men!/When it hurts, you scream."

I just came from a demonstration against the destruction of Har Habayit. It 
hurts. Make an issue, don't make an issue? Good question. But let's deal 
with this situation with the pain that it deserves. There are mitzvot min 
hatorah to be concerned with: Liyirah min hamikdash, lishmor et hamikdash 
tamid, kibush eretz yisroel (lifi ramban), to name a few. And what about 
kavod yisroel?! Is that not an important concept?

_Bar Kokhba_ by Yigal Yadin page 19: "Dio tells us that Hadrian founded in 
Jerusalem a city to replace the one razed to the ground and named it Aelia 
Caplitolina(...)and on the site of the Jewish Temple he erected a new Temple 
dedicated to the Roman god Jupiter. This, according to Dio, caused a war of 
'no slight importance nor of brief duration', since the Jews could not 
tolerate foreign races settling in their city and foreign religious rights 
being planted there."

And how about the weapons being stored on Har Habayit? I myself met an armed 
Palestinian "policeman" (do policemen carry automatic weapons?) guarding the 
entrance to the "Haram esh sharif" (who calls it har habayit anymore?). 
About a year ago the story broke that the P.A was building fortified 
buildings and preparing for a war on the har habayit. I live in the Old City 
- I wasn't happy with this news. But the Israeli government publicised that 
the Arabs had nothing to worry, no action would be taken. Let's try 
"appeasement " again. Maybe its first failure was a fluke.

And the archeological finds. The head of the Wakf said (Friday's Jerusalem 
Post) that the Temple Mount is a Moslem sight and not the holy sight of any 
other religion. The P.A. has printed a guide-pamphlet for the haram esh 
sharif where they say that there is no evidence of har habayit or the kotel 
having anything to do with the Jews. They will most likely destroy any find 
of Jewish interest. I though,am interested to know what objects of Jewish 
interest are to be found on Har Habayit. Am I alone?

May we all be blessed with good tidings.

Moshe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> I should also note that neither RYBS zt"l nor lehavdil ben chayim 
> lechayim ROY has paskened that in THIS situation we can (and 
> should) give up land. RYBS was answering a limited question - is it 
> permissible to give up land in order to save lives? I suspect that 

1. In the many years since R. Soloveitchik took this position there were
many occasions known to me (& others of which I am no doubt unaware) on
which he could have been more specific about the kind of settlement that
would justify territorial compromise. He single-mindedly avoided being
specific. The whole point of his position is that rabbanim should be
careful about laying down the law on matters about which they lack special
expertise.

2. I don't believe that the Rav would have spoken publicly on the subject
were it not that many Israeli and American rabbanim were making sweeping
pronouncements of a militant nature. As time went on, I suspect that he
feared that these pronouncements would "lock" religious Zionism into an
inflexible position, and that ultimately the atmosphere of religiously
sanctioned militancy would harm the credibility of Torah.

3. In fact, I fear that the perception of RZ militancy may have led many
secular Israelis to underestimate the dangers of peace at any price. If
the objections to peace are based on rigid halakhic positions (which are
not even subscribed to by many leading rabbanim), then if doesn't care
about these objections, there is no reason to move slowly. The Religious
Zionist who cries security now is like the boy crying wolf: when the wolf
comes, nobody wants to believe him.

[Naturally we might have more credibility were it not for the murder of
Rabin... But presumably those who made light of that, both before and
after, the fact, weren't thinking about the reprecussions...]

>I am really not concerned with our Arab cousins (that much). I am 
> >concerned
>more about our image in the eyes of our Jewish brethren.


I agree completely. Blackmail in the knesset, angry demonstrations and 
denouncements are counterproductive. The secular Israelis largely believe 
that vis a vis the Arabs we are in the wrong. (It's called Jewish guilt. 
They might call it the "galut mentality".)

We need THEM to understand the importance of Har Habayit, Medinat yisrael, 
Shabbat, Kashrut, etc. We need hasbarah. Screaming our positions which they 
see as primitive, only causes a negative backlash.

We need to reawaken the pride in being Jewish in our Israeli brothers. And 
we must be very wary of chilul hashem, chas vishalom. May we have success. 
Biezrat Hashem Na'aseh vinatzliach!

Moshe


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:10:47 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: 

	Would it be a lot to ask that you provide some particulars?

Gershon

> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 08:44:30 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> Subject: Re: Slap in the Face

<< The keynote speaker at the Midwest Agudah convention this past
Motzo'ei Shabbos spoke about Problem Kids, the Internet (BTW, the stance
is currently far more lenient than it was)

	Could you take a break from the current "hot" topic to explain this? 
I'd also be curious to know who the speaker was.

<<with an extraordinary SMAG about dishonesty and corruption>>

	And this?

Gershon

Illustrations:

The USA Orthodx world should not behave or pretend we are living under the czar.
We have a goverment and society that embraces diversity and that demands 
participatoin not withdrawal

I think that YU/Torah Umada
Torah im Derech Eretz
Torah UmSorah (at least in the J Kanetzky era)Chabad
etc.

Have all embraced being open and proud Jews, involved in community, who see the 
potential for techology as al ally to Torah, who do NOT feel threatned by 
change, but see it as an oporutnity to get the word out.

Lubavich are geniuses at using media to promote Torah.  This may be the single 
greatest legacy of the rebbe to all frumme yiddn, the marriage of his 
engineering background with his Torah background to allow for world-wide 
broacasts of farbrengen.  Certainly Aguda finally embraced this at the last 
siyum hashas

TV, Internet, VCR's, microphones retc. are morally neutral not hostile.  
Mechanchim should be out in front of exploiting media to teach Torah.

EG, I propose that cartoonists illustrate the Mishkan, the Mikdash and the 
Avodah of YK. Using animation, no one will be balsphemed by the apperacne of 
real people in the garb of a kohein gadol.  And then we can visualize what it 
was about.  I for one find visualizing the Mikdash and the Vaoda as a 
tremendouse challenge.  I have lained truma and Tetzave about 20 times each w/o 
really knowing what's going on in terms of a "picture".  yes the 2-dminesional 
aids are ok, but 3-d tehcnogoly is avaialable.

I hope this helps!
Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


2) Yeshivos should deal with the society as it IS not as they would like to TO 
BE or HAVE BEEN

<It actually seems to me that lives are being saved now every day: <There 
have
<been no major terrorist attacks, B"H, for several years, and <soldiers are
<not getting killed in Yv'S or Azza either.



1.  There have been many attempted attacks and anyone who avidly reades news 
about Israel is aware of that. Just 2 days ago a bomb went off in Netanya 
but the area was already cleared of people. This summer two car bombs went 
off but because Arabs don't change the clock for slichot they went off an 
hour early killing only themselves. The saving of life is not thanks to the 
P.A but to vihi sheamda laavoteynu vilanu.

2.  The Palestinians have been cooperating...minimally (according to Eitan 
Habar who is a firm supporter of the Oslo process). Why have they been 
cooperating? Because it suits their best interests - we have what to give. 
But what will be as soon as we have nothing more to give?

3.  Does anyone recall the sheer horror of life in Israel under the Peres 
government? As one almost killed by a bus bomb, I sure do.

4.  I have a foolproof method of guaranteeing that no more Jews ever get 
killed in Israel. Very simple. Let's all move to America (or other 
hospitable lands). Most of us already live there. Good, that'll save on 
shipping expenses.     But seriously, let's just abolish this whole idea of 
the state of Israel and move out. Why not?       Why not? Because it will 
cost more lives in the long run. Any way you slice it this process seemingly 
will cost us more lives in the long run (Churchill was saying that from1933 
untill England's entry into the war).

May Hashem save us from ourselves. Shomer psayim hashem - no? Not during the 
Shoah. But let us all pray that G-d will not let anything bad happen to His 
people - even if we do make every mistake in the book.

Moshe


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

In a message dated 12/27/99 4:26:33 PM EST, mosherudner@hotmail.com writes:

> In order for the Jewish people to trust his relating of prophecy G-d only 
>  needed to remove Moshe's free will vis a vis recording G-d's Torot. There 
>  was no reason for Moshe's free will to be removed for anything else 
>  including hitting the rock.
>  
See Rashi Bamidbar 17:13.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]