Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 184

Tuesday, December 14 1999

• Administrivia
• Re: Bate dinim and corruption
• Re: Fwd: Avodah V4 #182
• Agunot and Pruzbel
• Homosexuality/agunot
• Re: homosexuality (was agunos, etc.)
• Re: Homosexuality
• Re: Homosexuality
• Re: Agunot and Pruzbel
• Aguna discussion
• Re: Fwd: Avodah V4 #182
• Text vs. Practice
• Re: Homosexuality
• Homosexual vs Agunah
• What Agunahs should pray for
• Re: Silent vs Aspirated HAY in middle of Word
• Re: Abortion
• Re: AGUNOHT--Another approach
• women & funerals
• Re: AGUNOHT--Another approach

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-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Dec-99: Levi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 83a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On 13 Dec 99, at 10:31, Daniel B. Schwartz wrote:

 The system creates the problem.  All dayanim
> have to earna living, and therefore take fees for their services from the
> ba'alei din.  

I always thought that the Kehilla (or some organization of the 
Kehilla) pays the dayanim's salaries and that the fees paid by 
litigants are meant to cover costs (like filing fees in the civil courts). 
Are you saying that is not the case?

Many, if not most dayanim are also congregational rabbis, and
> most of them have their schuls in their homes (the "Boro Park shteibel
> model")  I have heard of ba'alei din donating  money to a dayan's schul, or
> to the yeshiva where he teaches, or to mosad that he heads etc.  

If this happens, why is it not shochad? How can a dayan who 
accepts a contribution to his shul knowing it is meant to influence 
his decision in a pending (or paskened) case justify himself? 

In New York
> it is not hard to find a friend of a friend etc who davens in the dayan's
> schul who will approach  the dayan and express interest in the case.  

If this happens, it is an issur of lashon hara, because a dayan is 
not allowed to discuss a case with a litigant without the other side 
being present. Lo kol shekain that he can't discuss it with another 
party! Does anyone attempt to justify these practices? 

Do you know for a fact that these things occur? These accusations 
are (to say the least) quite serious! Could you prove these things in 
an open court if you had to? Are these isolated instances or 
commonplace?

Other dayanim, part of institutional batei din oftnetimes find
> themselves constrained by the political agenda of that institution.  

I would think that every institution would want to free agunos. Why 
would any of them want women to remain in that position?

I found this post incredible. Can anyone back it up?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

--- MIKE38CT@aol.com wrote:

> Are there
> clear opinions that 
> state that a lesbian act would be equal from a torah
> perspective to a male 
> homosexual act?  Or is one d'oraysa and one
> d'rabanan?

One is a D'orrayso and one a D'rabonon.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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R' A Atwood wrote that Pruzbel is no comparison to Agunot since it was
Hillel that instituted it.

Not so. Had Hillel instituted it on the basis of a mesoyre or a halokhe
lemoyshe misinay and had his takone been to disapply the mitsvas ese of
shmitas ksofim then he would have had a case in point.

But we are told that he did it in response to a problem that people
ceased lending to one another. And the way he solved the problem was to
create a legal fiction that it is the beth din and not the individual
who is demanding payment.

It is incumbent on those who feel the Hillel is different to explain why
societal problems some 2000 years ago could be solved in this way while
problems created after some cut-off date cannot. What about 'eyn lekho
elo koyhen shebeyomekho' and 'yiftakh bedoyroy kishmueyl bedoyroy'?

And Pruzbel is only one example. There is mekhiras khomets, heter iske,
eyruv which all create fictional halakhic entities to solve seemingly
insuperable problems.

Finally, we find two places in Torah where Moshe Rabeynu is petitioned
by those who felt disenfranchised by the halokhe: The t'meyim l'nefesh
odom by pesakh sheyni and the bnoys tselofkhod. Both use the same
powerful words 'lomo nigora?' and both are successful in their petition
and the law is changes to accommodate them. This alone should tell us
something.

But the bnoys tselofkhod are accorded the additional honour that Hashem
says 'keyn bnoys tslofkhod doyvroys' (see both Rashis). This should tell
us a lot more than something.

Dovid Herskovic

David Herskovic <post@arctic1.demon.co.uk> said, in an excellent post
which I won't quote in its entirety:

> There is therefore, apart from the husband's abuse, a terrible khilel
> hashem in that halokhe is not only allowing him to get away with it
> but is the very basis for his wrong.

This is exactly what I've been trying to get at, albeit perhaps not very
succesfully.  Hence my exasperation and occasional overheated response.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

In a message dated 12/13/99 9:00:43 AM US Central Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< Homosexuals accepted in the Jewish community for centuries?  I think you
 are not even recalling the situation vis a vis homosexuals IN THE WORLD
 AT LARGE up to the  sixties and seventies when toeva became natural.  Kal
 vachomer ben bno shel kal vachomer that the Jewish community never
 accepted it nor does it accept it now except for those who have been
 mislead by the perverted liberalism which guides the Western world
 nowadays. >>

I wrote of our world as it actually was, the way our people lived it. 
Tolerance is a Jewish community trait, if perhaps not always an rabbinic one. 
Shtetl Jews didn't worry about "liberalism," perverted or otherwise. 
Political labelling is a very inexact way to approach history.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/13/99 1:26:47 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< So, When someone proclaims his Homosexual orientation,
 as long as there is no proof that he has acted on
 those inclinations, then he should be consisdered a
 full fledged member of the community with all the
 rights and responsibilities that entails.
 
 Many of us are disgusted with that type of behavior. 
 But are we equally disgusted by Heterosexual behavior
 that involves Issurei Ervah?  I doubt it.
 
 One of the more common occurances in society today is
 infidelity to one's marraige partner.  In the case of
 a married woman, it is a Yahrog VeAl Yavor. 
 Unfrotunately we seem to have more pathos for this
 behavior than Homosexual behavior.
 
 I am not sure whether there is a "Gay" gene or not.
 But I am sure that we could have a lot more compassion
 for our fellow man than we do.
  >>

Yes. Yes. Yes.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/13/99 9:48:09 AM US Central Standard Time, 
mpress@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< While I hesitate to generalize from clinical experience (even 30 years 
worth), my sense is that the substantial majority of observant men with 
predominantly homosexual leanings do exactly what homosexual males did until 
relatively recently in Western society.  They marry, father children and live 
standard family lives, accepting that they have not been able to fully enjoy 
one aspect of human pleasure.
 
 One must also note that many people with homosexual desires are clearly 
bisexual and are capable of having pleasure from heterosexual intercourse, 
though less than from the alternative.  Such people can be helped to live 
relatively satisfactory sexual lives with a minimum of sexual tension.  
  >>

I am sure these observations are learned and correct. I wonder, however, 
whether sexual desire -- so central to the psychodynamic fire by which HaShem 
made us human beings -- can be relegated to a mere "aspect of human 
pleasure." Similarly, I wonder whether the avoidance of sexual tension, as 
opposed to achievement of sexual fulfillment, is large enough goal even for 
those Jews who involuntarily and inescapably "feel" their homosexuality.

Halacha is what it is. Rabbi Maryles posted a superb observation on the power 
that HaShem gave us along with halacha: compassion. We should exercise that 
power when we approach this subject.

David Finch

----- Original Message -----
From: David Herskovic <david@arctic1.demon.co.uk>
To: Avodah <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 5:10 PM
Subject: Agunot and Pruzbel


> R' A Atwood wrote that Pruzbel is no comparison to Agunot since it was
> Hillel that instituted it.
>
> Not so. Had Hillel instituted it on the basis of a mesoyre or a halokhe
> lemoyshe misinay and had his takone been to disapply the mitsvas ese of
> shmitas ksofim then he would have had a case in point.
>
> But we are told that he did it in response to a problem that people
> ceased lending to one another. And the way he solved the problem was to
> create a legal fiction that it is the beth din and not the individual
> who is demanding payment.
>

Not necessarily so.

Big machlokes.

Many Rishonim hold that Hillel just promoted the pre-existing loophole of
moser shetarosav l'Beis Din.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

The following analogy came to mind as I followed the aguna thread on Avodah:

As someone involved in medicine and research, occasionally I hear people
ask why a vaccine against the AIDS virus, or a cure for the disease, is not
yet available.  In theory, it would be possible to at least prevent further
infection with the virus if individuals and communities were to
dramatically change their behavior.  For example, everyone could be made to
have blood tests for the virus, and those who tested positive would then be
quarantined.  Or perhaps people who are at risk for infection could
voluntarily have themselves tested, and then voluntarily avoid activities
that might cause others to be exposted to the virus.

In practice, communities and individuals for a variety of reasons (some
good and some not) have not been willing to take these steps.  Also,
discovering a vaccine or cure for the disease is a very difficult
scientific problem which many talented people are working hard to solve,
but have not yet succeeded in doing so.

Clearly, many cases of agunot could be concluded by changes in community
practices, such as ostracism or use of force against recalcitrant husbands.
For a variety of reasons, these changes have not been universally adopted.
At the same time, the halachic issues are extremely difficult to resolve,
despite having occupied the attention of many of our finest scholars.

In both these tragic cases, considerable attention and resources need to be
devoted to ameliorating the problem.

On Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 02:56:54PM -0800, harry maryles wrote:
> --- MIKE38CT@aol.com wrote:
> > Are there
> > clear opinions that 
> > state that a lesbian act would be equal from a torah
> > perspective to a male 
> > homosexual act?  Or is one d'oraysa and one
> > d'rabanan?
> 
> One is a D'orrayso and one a D'rabonon.

i think the prohibitions are actually both d'oraisa but just come from 
different psukim and have different punishments.  see sifra on the "deed 
of the land of egypt".  i think the rambam gives that it's lashings, 
d'rabbanan.

janet

I had considered posting this a few weeks ago, when it was Inyanei
D'Yoma, but chose not to, because I've posted this on Mail-Jewish and
elsewhere several times in the past. But now that Rabbi Wolpoe has given
his <<< challenge to our list to expand the cases where we know the text
says one thing but the practice is different >>>, I'll mention it anyway.

Namely... The text for Haneros Halalu which appears in the siddurim is
very different than that which appears in the poskim. This refers to all
siddurim that I've seen, including Ashkenaz, Chassidic, and Sefaradi
siddurim, which have a text of close to 50 words. The only exception I've
seen is the German siddurim, which have the text of the poskim.

The Mechaber O"C 676:4, and every posek who appears on that se'if,
describe a much shorter text, and several give the full wording. Pick
your favorite posek, anyone from the Rosh (Shabbos 2:10, al pi Elya Raba
676:8) to Rav Shimon Eider (Chap 3, note 118). They all talk about the
text, but no one suggests that the siddurim should be corrected.

I honestly don't understand. Am I the first person to open his siddur
while learning Hilchos Chanuka? When the Gemara quotes a pasuk, we open
the Tanach to see the pasuk in context; who wouldn't do that while
learning hilchos tefila?

Akiva Miller

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Before anything else, I must add myself to those who stress the
importance of distinguishing between those who have a desire for
homosexual relations, and those who actually engage in such relations.
Too many posters have used the noun "homosexual" without clarifying what
they mean, and this had led to several unfortunate misunderstandings.

R' Harry Maryles asked: <<< Many of us are disgusted with that type of
behavior. But are we equally disgusted by Heterosexual behavior that
involves Issurei Ervah?  I doubt it. ... One of the more common
occurances in society today is infidelity to one's marraige partner.  In
the case of a married woman, it is a Yahrog VeAl Yavor.  Unfortunately we
seem to have more pathos for this behavior than Homosexual behavior. >>>

I agree with R' Maryles' observation that many of us are indeed more
disgusted by homosexual behavior than other sexual sins. I also agree
that infidelity to one's spouse is a severe violation of Bein Adam
L'chavero. On the other hand, we have a principle that while A is worse
than B in some ways, it can nevertheless be true that B is worse than A
in other ways. In that light, I'd like to offer some ideas to help
understand some ways in which male homosexual aveiros are worse than
other sexual aveiros.

Many of my thoughts on this subject are based on the article "Judaism and
Homosexuality", by Rabbi Barry Freundel, from the Spring 1986 issue (#11)
of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society. He deals with several
problems in this article, including:

-- Why are male homosexual acts referred to as "to'evah", a term which is
used for several other aveiros, but *not* for other sexual sins? (pg 75)

-- Why are female homosexual acts forbidden to a far less serious degree
than male homosexual acts? (pg 83)

-- Why is it that other forbidden sexual acts are patur from the death
penaly unless hotzaas zera occurs, but male homosexuality is contingent
only on sexual contact, and they are chayav misah even without hotzaas
zera? (pg 84)

From these points, it is clear that male homosexuality has an unusually
repugnant status in Judaism as compared to other arayos. But why? On a
gut level, there is something unnatural about it, but in exactly which
way? Rabbi Freundel points us to a pasuk in Bereshis: "Therefore, a man
will leave his father and his mother, and stick to his wife, and they
will become one flesh."

When you strip away all the technicalities of both halacha and civil law,
and all the social conventions of concepts like "marriage", and go back
to the most basic concepts of nature as defined by the Torah, the bottom
line is that man and woman are designed to fit together "as one flesh" in
a physical sense. Even the most disgusting incest is still "natural" in
this sense, but male homosexual acts are not.

Akiva Miller

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RE: Shalom Carmys analysis of Homosexual vs Agunah

I strongly object. The reason homsexuals don't suffer and Agunahs
do is because halachah (actually the Bible) rejects the notion that
homosexuals have "legitimate" feelings. 

On the other hand "Agunahs" do have legitimate needs not being met

I for one strongly object to an halachick statement about homosexuals
that "no one minds"---It is a more serious Issur than a woman sinning
Russell
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richard walpoe writes
>>>>>>>
Ein hochi nami!

How about parying for the tormentors to change thier minds, do teshuvo
and let 
the Aguno go free!  A win-win situation perhaps?!

Rich Wolpoe
>>>>>>>>

Oh of course I agree. You shouldn't just take out your siddur and kill
the poor
guy. Try talking, threatening thru besdins, praying he come to his
senses,
community pressure. ...But after all that WE should encourage the agunah
to pray for his death....and stop acting like it is "un jewish"
That was my point
Russell
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Gil student writes

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:16:35 -0500 gil.student@citicorp.com writes:
> RRJ Hendel,ASA wrote:
> 
> >>I promised Rabbi Teitz (and 1 or 2 others) to dig up my source for 
> the 
> concept that all HAYS are silent in the
> middle of a word>>
> 
> I am way out of my league here, but I seem to remember that in the 
> Mishnas 
> HaGra, printed in the back of the little blue Otzar Sifrei HaGra, 
> there is 
> a different opinion.  In fact, I think that it says that both HAYS 
> and 
> CHETS are exceptions and are never silent in the middle of a word.
> 


YES...If you read the rest of my posting you would see that is what I
say. Rabbi Teitz argued that HAYS may or may not be silent because
sometimes they have a shva and sometimes not

I want a stronger source (than the Gra) to answer him

Anyone have any ideas
Russell
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Carl
I heard a shiur from Rav Aaron Soloveitchick a few years ago.

He disagreed that the fetus is ROdayf (for reasons I will show below)
Hence the reason you can save the mothers life is because his life
status is inferior.

Getting back to why the fetus is not rodayf Rav Aaron was Medayek
on two items

--In Murder 1 rambam says the fetus is LIKE A RODEF
--The phrase LIKE A RODEF Occurs in Torts 8 at end (by a boat with
too heavy a cargo..the cargo is LIKE A RODEF)

Rav Aaron's take was that the fetus is no different that a heavy cargo.
He doesn't have the status of a full rodayf because he is not human.
Furthermore if he was a rodayf then why should he lose his status when
his head comes out?

The answer is that it is not fetus rodayf mother or mother rodayf fetus
but rather natural law (Heaven) that is putting them in a situation where
they are going to die. That is called LIKE A RODAYF (An actual rODAYF
is when person is trying to kill another..here they are competing for
resources

If this isn't that clear (its 3 am) I will rewrite it when I come back
Russell

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:01:16 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
<cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes:
> On 12 Dec 99, at 10:30, Russell J Hendel wrote:
> 
> > However the status of life of the fetus is inferior to full 
> fledged
> > people
> > Hence
> > ---the mothers life would take precedence over the fetus
> 
> I don't think it's correct to say that the fetus is "inferior" to a 
> full 
> fledged person. Rather, if the mother's life is in danger R"L, the 
> fetus has the din of rodef and therefore one can abort the fetus to 
> save the mother's life.
> 
> -- Carl
> 
> 
> Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
> Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
> Telephone 972-2-625-7751
> Fax 972-2-625-0461
> mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
> 
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.

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Carl
Thank you for your response reprinted below. I agree with you in
GENERAL and there are sources to back you up.

However Halachah is very clear that there are EXCEPTIONS
to the rule you mention. Those exceptions are
---workers
---widows
A fortiori Agunoth.

Let me put it another way....if you haven't gotten an aliyah in a
few months and given more money than your friends who have
gotten aliyahs I would agree that you should not pray against
tormentors. But agunoth are different.

I emphasize that my response to you is HALACHIC and not
subjective. I consider this important and would therefore
like it pursued further.

Thank you for answering

Russell (I will be at a conference for a week but will answer when
I get back)

On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:04:04 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
<cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes:
> On 12 Dec 99, at 10:35, Russell J Hendel wrote:
> 
> > I would advocate a
> > ---public policy of encouraging agunoth to pray for the death of 
> their
> > tormentors
> 
> One is not supposed to pray for tzaros to befall his/her tormentors 
> because doing so encourages a closer examination of his own 
> actions. Therefore, while this might be appealing, I would say yotzo 
> 
> schoro b'hefseido.
> 
> -- Carl
> 
> 
> Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
> Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
> Telephone 972-2-625-7751
> Fax 972-2-625-0461
> mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
> 
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.

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Last night I went to a funeral in Petach Tikvah (which follows minhag
yerushalayim) and the Chevrah Kadisha announced that women were not to
go to the graveside funeral.
Does anyone know the origin of this custom and why?

Eli Turkel

>
> I would advocate a
> ---public policy of encouraging agunoth to pray for the death of their
> tormentors
> ---public policy of publicizing all such men who die from such prayers.
>
Chalila.
In the time of Rabbi Meir there was a group of bandits in the neighbourhood,
understandably making people's lives miserable. Rabbi Meir suggested that
they daven for the deaths of these bandits.  Rabbi Meir's wife, Beruriah,
objected to this. Rather, the townspeople should daven for them to do
tshuva. Is it not true that her suggestion was accepted and the bandits did
tshuva.

*********************


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