Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 021

Thursday, April 15 1999

• Humor Alert - Aguda Goes Egalitarian
• Re: Cup of 221 lug
• teshuvah of non-Jews
• new chareidi on-line journal
• Cheating on Taxes
• Re: Cup of 221 lug
• RE: Cheating on Taxes
• Re: Cheating on Taxes
• Re: Avodah V3 #17: Orthodox Priorities
• RE: Cheating on Taxes
• Re: Teshuvah and non-Jews
• Re: Cheating on Taxes
• Re: Avodah V3 #19
• Re: me'inyana d'yoma
• Re: me'inyana d'yoma
• Re: Avodah V3 #20
• Re: Cheating on Taxes
• Re: me'inyana d'yoma
• Re: Cheating on Taxes

Truth is stranger than fiction, and this is true:

... Rabbi Cynthia Culpeper installed as Agudath Israel's rabbi...               

See      
http://www.bham.net/shofar/gh9095/0995/culpeper.ht
for details

Rich Wolpoe

Having just read through the rather elaborate discussion of getting to 221, 
did anyone consider that the gematria of revaya is 221?!  Why do we need to 
make grand calculations?

EDT

R' Tzadok HaKohen in Takonas Hashovin pp. 4-5 says that teshuvah of non-Jews
works mikan ulehabo to save them from punishment, but does not expunge the
sin retroactively as does the teshuvah of a Jew. Rav Elchonon Wasserman says
the same thing somewhere in Kovetz He'aros. I don't know the exact source
offhand.

Yisrael Herczeg

This new journal can also be linked through thekosher.net main page.  Just
a warning to the faint of heart:  this is put out by (and I think contains
many of the same English articles) as the folks who publish Yated Ne'eman.

As for the specifics, the article on Jewish Demographics look relatively
interesting (even though I among those Sociologists being villified).

>>I'm acquainted with several people who consider themselves committed, Orthodox
Jews, who happen to cheat on their taxes. The cheating normally takes the form 
of not reporting income, and inflating deductions.
Is there any room to say that these acquaintances of mine are not in violation 
of any halachos?
Avi Pechman<<

Lich'ora not.  We  can probably come up with a few convoluted cases.  Let's say 
the governement was somehow "guilty" of confiscating something shelo al pi din. 
One might then say don odom dino l'atzmo.

I know for a fact that a NYC brownshirt ticketed my car for an expired meter, 
several minutes before it actually expired.  I even had a witness.  But, try 
figihting it and taking off of work and getting the witness to shlep in.  In a 
sense, NYC was "oveir chomos", because in order to get back my money, it would 
have required me to lose time - and isn't time money?

So now, one could rationalize and say, if NYC "ganved" $35, one is entitled to 
get it back...

Needless to say, there are many slippery slopes here at work, still, there may 
be room to be melamed "zechus".  As a hashkofo, it doesn't seem to make a lot of
sense to fight corruption with more corruption.

Rich Wolpoe 

In a message dated 4/15/99 2:15:58 PM EST, EDTeitz@aol.com writes:

> Having just read through the rather elaborate discussion of getting to 221, 
>  did anyone consider that the gematria of revaya is 221?!  Why do we need 
to 
>  make grand calculations?
>  
That is the Poshut Pshat, however the explanation given adds a Geshmake 
dimension as to why that word (with that Gematria) is used, as an aside see 
B"R 14 why she was named Rus because of her descendent Dovid who "ReeVohu 
LHKB"H" with Shirim and Tishbochos.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

> -----Original Message-----
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com [mailto:richard_wolpoe@ibi.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 1999 4:57 PM
> To: avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Cheating on Taxes
> 
> 
> >>I'm acquainted with several people who consider themselves 
> committed, Orthodox
> Jews, who happen to cheat on their taxes. The cheating 
> normally takes the form 
> of not reporting income, and inflating deductions.
> Is there any room to say that these acquaintances of mine are 
> not in violation 
> of any halachos?
> Avi Pechman<<
> 
> Lich'ora not.  We  can probably come up with a few convoluted 
> cases.  Let's say 
> the governement was somehow "guilty" of confiscating 
> something shelo al pi din. 
> One might then say don odom dino l'atzmo.

These people are not cheating to get back what's "rightfully" theirs.
They're doing it to save money. They would probably acknowledge that they're
not in strict compliance with the tax code, and would litereally shrug it
off. And yet they would still claim to be doing nothing wrong from a
religious standpoint.

> 
> I know for a fact that a NYC brownshirt ticketed my car for 
> an expired meter, 
> several minutes before it actually expired.  I even had a 
> witness.  But, try 
> figihting it and taking off of work and getting the witness 
> to shlep in.  In a 

Next time that happens, plead not guilty on the mail-in and claim a meter
malfunction. They'll find you guilty. Pay the fine, and mail in an appeal,
and specifically ask for the maintenance record of that meter. I did this
once and it worked (granted it took 6 months). (In my situation, it actually
was a fast meter; you would probably have to claim a fast metermaid.)

> sense, NYC was "oveir chomos", because in order to get back 
> my money, it would 
> have required me to lose time - and isn't time money?
> 
> So now, one could rationalize and say, if NYC "ganved" $35, 
> one is entitled to 
> get it back...
> 
> Needless to say, there are many slippery slopes here at work, 
> still, there may 
> be room to be melamed "zechus".  As a hashkofo, it doesn't 
> seem to make a lot of
> sense to fight corruption with more corruption.

The tax code isn't corrupt. Although none of us like to pay, the code is
applied to all consistently.
 
> 
> Rich Wolpoe 

Avi Pechman

Avi Pechman wrote:

> The tax code isn't corrupt.

This is true.


> Although none of us like to pay, the code is
> applied to all consistently.


This is not. I have read the "tax code" (Title 26 of the US Code), and
nowhere in it's 6,000 pages have I been able to find where it applies to
ME, or most of you for that matter. Nor has anyone I've asked been able to
show me. But the code is applied to us by force anyway. But that is a
discussion for another forum.

But assuming what I said is true, and the law is misapplied, would that
mitigate the potential halachic problems in "cheating"?


---sam

>Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:51:59 -0400 (EDT)
>From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
>Subject: Orthodox Priorities
>
>I think there's a range of reasons our community has the priorities it
>does.
..
..
..
>Now, if we neglect supporting conservation efforts, even those in Israel,
>there's a real chance someone else will pick up the slack. You can't, however,
>expect much chiloni money going to support our internal causes.
>

Even accepting your argument vis a vis the US (which I don't, but
assumming), it doesn't hold water for Israel.  To be precise, "chiloni"
money in the form of tax shekels very much DOES support "our" internal
causes, both directly and indirectly. To wit:

*   Yeshivot (mostly legitimate) in Israel get direct capitation money to
the tune of about 1 Billion N.I.S. (billion, not million) per year.

*   In addition to the direct support to Yeshivot, Avreichei Kollel get
various stipends, income supports, rental & housing subsidies etc.  Since
they have declared that Toratam 'Umnatam & as a result they are exempted
from serving in Tza"Hal, they are not allowed to work (officially) and
hence are largely dependant on these governmental sources of funding.
There are approximately 70 to 80 thousand yeshiva students who fall into
this category.

*   For these and other reasons, the "Hareidi" / Yeshivish world benefits
from many tax breaks pegged to income level.  In Yerushalayim, "Hareidim"
make up about 38% of the population, but generate only 10% of the tax base.

*   The yeshiva world is protected by an army of draftees in which they
mostly don't serve or do a very minimal service (I am **NOT** including
Hesder in this category).

*   There is an extensive network of government supported religious public
schools (i.e., "MaMads" - Batei Sefer Mamlachti Dati) many, if not most of
which are as good or better than U.S. day schools.  On top of that Chinuch
Atzma'i is largely funded by government money as is the Shas 'El Hama'ayan
school system.  There are also many semi-private, semi-public dati schools
which cater to a wide variety of religios substreams, all of which are
mostly funded by tax money.  In addition there are an ever growing number
of "private" Yeshivot Tichoniyot (yeshiva high schools) whose budget also
is largely tax supported.

*   Most shuls are built at least in part by tax money.  Evern more so for
mikva'ot.  The operating expenses of mikva'ot are also largely covered by
tax money.

*   Tax money is also used to support regular and special event she'urim
under the general rubric of Tarbut Torani.

and there are more and more...

(Sidenote:  A major source of the ever growing and ever worrisome dati /
hareidi / hiloni split is the perception (rightly or wrongly or both) on
the part of many hilonim that they are tired of heavy tax & millitary
service burden they are carrying so that so many could sit and learn full
time.  But I've been chastized in the past that serious soul searching
discussions of ticking time bombs are not under the purview of this list).

So the general neglect by the Torah world of social / public / and general
Bein Adam L'chavero issues can't be justified or explained away based on
being too busy supporting "our internal causes".

With all due respect, I think the real reason is that Orthodoxy has evolved
to viewing "religiosity" or being a "shomer mitzvot" as being focussed on
ritual, i.e., bein 'adam lamkom.  Unfortunately and wrongly, mitzvot bein
adam l'chavero are just not important enough or even worse, don't enter
into people's calculus of "frumkeit".

What's even worse is that there is little presumption, particularly on the
part of many chilonim here in Israel, that "frumkeit" has nothing to do
with being more honest, more careful in one's dealing with others, etc.
It's just a matter of ritualistic behavior.

Rabbi Bechoffer has said on a number of occasions that the purpose of the
mitzvot (including the bein adam Lamakom) is to make someone a more refined
individual.  Sounds great on paper but it seems to get lost in practice.

hg


.............................................................................

                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
                         e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il

.............................................................................

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sammy Ominsky [mailto:sambo@charm.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 1999 5:07 PM
> To: avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: Cheating on Taxes
> 
> 
> Avi Pechman wrote:
> 
> > The tax code isn't corrupt.
> 
> This is true.
> 
> 
> > Although none of us like to pay, the code is
> > applied to all consistently.
> 
> 
> This is not. I have read the "tax code" (Title 26 of the US Code), and
> nowhere in it's 6,000 pages have I been able to find where it 
> applies to
> ME, or most of you for that matter. Nor has anyone I've asked 

Section one of the Internal Revenue Code states that a tax is hereby imposed
on certain categories of people in accordance with a specific formula.
Assuming most of us are in any of the following categories: married, single,
surviving spouse, etc., the code applies to us.

> been able to
> show me. But the code is applied to us by force anyway. But that is a
> discussion for another forum.
> 
> But assuming what I said is true, and the law is misapplied, 
> would that
> mitigate the potential halachic problems in "cheating"?

I don't think so. From a dina d'malchusa dina standpoint, the government has
a right to demand tax payments from people living in the country. If they
desire to do so, we have an obligation to pay. If the supreme court decides
that the treasury department overextended its authority by demanding tax
payments, then the treasury department will stop asking for tax payments,
and we will not be obligated to make any.

In other words, dina d'malchusa dina is not contingent on our government
following title 26 (or any legal code). It's contingent on the government
establishing procedures which are applied consistently to everyone living in
the country.

> 
> 
> ---sam
> 

Avi Pechman

APechman writes:

Re: teshuvah of non-Jews :
 <<  Yishmael and Eisav, as descendents of Avraham Avinu, had some element of
 kedusha. A better example would be Adam, I think.
 
 We have accounts in shas where non-Jews did tshuva (e.g. Nevuzarradan, after
 the slaughter over Zecharya's blood, Niron Caesar, after the arrow
 divination). In these cases, the tshuva was accompanied by geirus, which
 allowed for a new starting point. >>

But what about Cain who did teshuvah?  And what about the executioner of R. 
Chanina b. Tradyon?  There may be no chiyyuv of teshuvah, but certainly 
teshuvah is possible.

Mark Dratch

Why is this even a question? Every so often this issue seems to come up in
the dati community and I am troubled that there are those amongst us who
seriously believe that an anarchical approach to responding to our claims
against the government is worthy of serious contemplation.   And, why is it
this subject usually arises within the context of monetary issues involving
the government.   I generally do not see discussions in Orthodox forums
that suggest that "self help" is an appropriate legal response to other
civil or criminal disputes.   If we believe that a Jewish  neighbor's lawn
mower disturbs our sanctity of the Shabbat, do we sabotage the lawn mower?
If we believe that a fellow Jew (or non-Jew  for that matter), has been
unjustly convicted of a crime, do we then have license to help that person
escape from prison?   If we CHOOSE to live in this country, then we have an
obligation to abide by its laws. No one forces us to live here.  I don't
believe dina d'malchuta dina suggests otherwise.  Indeed, a number of years
ago I had opportunity to hear a well-known posek (not of my home town)
speak to a large crowd and suggest that "self help" was appropriate as long
as you could get away with it. (!) Even if that meant stealing from your
neighbor that which you BELIEVE belongs to you.  (Hmmmm. What if your
"belief" is wrong?)  When I  asked him during the Q and A to support his
position chapter and verse, he couldn't. All he could respond with was to
mumble to the large crowd that I obviously didn't listen to his talk and
quickly move on to the next questioner.   Chevra, such attitudes are
dangerous.

If we have a dispute with government, monetary or otherwise, there are
legal means by which to resolve them.   The alternative is anarchy.   I
will leave to the talmidei chachamim on this list to provide the sources,
but I am very troubled that cheating on the government comes up over and
over again in the dati community.  What is it about how we see ourselves in
relationship to the larger community that allows this question to be put
forth?   Why is cheating the government seen as so benign?  Years ago, I
had occasion to sit at a shabbat table and hear a yeshiva student from New
York openly talk about how everyone in the school was "doing it" with
respect to cheating on the New York State Regent's Exam.   He was even
boasting about the money he made!!   The fact that he felt he could talk so
openly about the matter in front of strangers suggested that he had no
qualms about his actions.  When I asked why, he said, "it's only cheating
the government, and besides the rebeim don't care."

And yes, I have received obviously trumped-up parking tickets (for not
having a city sticker--when it was right there, as plain as day, on my
windshield).   With one exception, I have successfully fought them all (but
at a not inconsiderable cost in terms of my time). That still does not give
me license to "cheat" the city in some other arena.

//Avi

Avram Sacks
Chicago, IL



From: Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net> on 04/15/99 04:06 PM EDT

To:   avodah@aishdas.org@SMTP@cchntmsd
cc:
Subject:  Re: Cheating on Taxes

Avi Pechman wrote:

> The tax code isn't corrupt.

This is true.


> Although none of us like to pay, the code is
> applied to all consistently.


This is not. I have read the "tax code" (Title 26 of the US Code), and
nowhere in it's 6,000 pages have I been able to find where it applies to
ME, or most of you for that matter. Nor has anyone I've asked been able to
show me. But the code is applied to us by force anyway. But that is a
discussion for another forum.

But assuming what I said is true, and the law is misapplied, would that
mitigate the potential halachic problems in "cheating"?


---sam

Rabbi Bechhoffer wrote:

<<<
As an individual with distinguished Chabad yichus, I take umbrage at your
implication that you were insulted by my saying the DR was defending as
mikva built to Chabad specs! (Follow that?)
>>>

Well, don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the Dor Revi'i would have followed Chabad specs in building a mikvah?  At any rate, I'm sure we can find more important things to fight about.  I'll send you a photocopy of the kuntras and you can judge for yourself if you wish.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Pechman, Abraham wrote:
> 
> I'm acquainted with several people who consider themselves committed,
> Orthodox Jews, who happen to cheat on their taxes. The cheating normally
> takes the form of not reporting income, and inflating deductions.
> 
> Is there any room to say that these acquaintances of mine are not in
> violation of any halachos?
> 
> Avi Pechman

I once heard a shiur by Rabbi Hillel David to the effect that Dinei 
D'Malchusa Dina applies most specificly to paying income and other 
taxes. Therefore,cheating on ones income taxes is most definately Assur.

HM

While it is absolutely forbidden to lie on one's 1040, because of geneivas
da'as - and - in many cases, because of geneiva mamash, the reality is
that most Jews - not just Orthodox ones - have a Kimba Wood problem -
remember her? (And the candidate befor her - forget her name, but wasn't
she Jewish?) i.e., the Babysitter issue. We also have a problem with
stores that do not charge sales tax - which some Poskim actually forbid
buying in. The parameters here are based on Hafka'as Halva'as Akum, that
most Poskim hold is permissible.

On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Harry Maryles wrote:

> I once heard a shiur by Rabbi Hillel David to the effect that Dinei
> D'Malchusa Dina applies most specificly to paying income and other
> taxes. Therefore,cheating on ones income taxes is most definately Assur. 
> 
> HM
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:38:37 -0400
>From: "Pechman, Abraham" <APechman@mwellp.com>
>Subject: me'inyana d'yoma
>
>I'm acquainted with several people who consider themselves committed,
>Orthodox Jews, who happen to cheat on their taxes. The cheating normally
>takes the form of not reporting income, and inflating deductions.
>
>Is there any room to say that these acquaintances of mine are not in
>violation of any halachos?
>
>Avi Pechman
>

Since when does paying taxes have anything to do with "frumkeit"?  After
all, it's not a ritual, let alone a publicly viewable ritual [written in a
slightly  cynical tone].

Let me comment with a story.  Before moving to Israel 3.5 years ago, my
wife worked as a social worker in a very respected organization that dealt
with the problem of Jewish domestic abuse and violence.  The organization
worked closely with, and had the support of, **ALL** the major (and many up
and coming) poskim of the community.  These rabanim often tried to use
their position and influence to get abusive husbands, particularly those
from the Yeshivish welt to see the error of their ways but with little
success. A common response from the husband was that the Rav could control
what chickens he put in his pot, but not how to run his family life; that
(unlike the kashrut of chickens) was not an issue of halacha and p'sak.

In other words, "frumkeit" is measured by the "Glattness" of one's chickens
but not ones behavior to others.

hg

.............................................................................

                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
                         e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il

.............................................................................

Avram_Sacks@cch.com wrote:

> a number of years
> ago I had opportunity to hear a well-known posek (not of my home town)
> speak to a large crowd and suggest that "self help" was appropriate as long
> as you could get away with it. (!) Even if that meant stealing from your
> neighbor that which you BELIEVE belongs to you. 


I attended that same lecture and I admit that I was a bit suprised and 
troubled by it. As I recall, he did cite some sources for his opinion of 
why this was not considered a case ofDina D'Malchusa Dina. 
Never-the-less, B'Mchilas Kvodo, I would have to disagree with this 
esteemed Posek (who I believe is a Daas Yachid on this subject) as to 
the permissiblility of doing anything in this country that is illegal.  
But, even if you do concede that there are some illegal acts that don't 
fall into the category of Dina D'Malchusa Dina, they should still be 
assur based on the concept of Naval B'Reshus  HaTorah. The Torah says 
Kedoshim TiHiyu and we are to act in a way which is most ethical even 
beyond the strict letter of Torah law.  The Torah doesn't have to spell 
out every detail of our actions for us to know how to act.  We know the 
potential for Chilul HaShem. This is the reason I am so troubled by this 
Posek's attitude about performing certain illegal acts. I am espcially 
troubled by his very pulic pronouncements regaerding them.  In an open 
forum such as the one in which he spoke, anyone can attend and 
misunderstand what this Posek was trying to say.  People with a limited 
background would walk away from this lecture thinking that Jewish ethics 
allows for some seriously unacceptable behaviour, RL!

HM

Rabbi Yosef G. Bechhofer wrote:
> 
> While it is absolutely forbidden to lie on one's 1040, because of geneivas
> da'as - and - in many cases, because of geneiva mamash, the reality is
> that most Jews - not just Orthodox ones - have a Kimba Wood problem -
> remember her? (And the candidate befor her - forget her name, but wasn't
> she Jewish?) i.e., the Babysitter issue. We also have a problem with
> stores that do not charge sales tax - which some Poskim actually forbid
> buying in. The parameters here are based on Hafka'as Halva'as Akum, that
> most Poskim hold is permissible.



How many people take out withholding taxes when they pay their baby 
sitter?  I'll tell you.  NO ONE! 

Here's another one.  (I'm particularly guilty of this one.) How many 
people observe the speeding laws?  Can anyone on this list say that they 
have never in their lives exceeded the speeding limit?

Perhaps we are all guilty of lawbreaking on one level or another.  The 
point is to know that we are and not try and excuse it by saying it is 
halachicly permissible. Neither I, or any one else should be excused 
from breaking the law. It behooves us to aspire to the level the Torah 
requires of us when it commands: Kedoshim TiHiyu.

HM

In a message dated 4/15/99 7:07:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
C-Maryles@neiu.edu writes:

<< 
 Avram_Sacks@cch.com wrote:
 
 > a number of years
 > ago I had opportunity to hear a well-known posek (not of my home town)
 > speak to a large crowd and suggest that "self help" was appropriate as long
 > as you could get away with it. (!) Even if that meant stealing from your
 > neighbor that which you BELIEVE belongs to you. 
 
 
 I attended that same lecture and I admit that I was a bit suprised and 
 troubled by it. As I recall, he did cite some sources for his opinion of 
 why this was not considered a case ofDina D'Malchusa Dina. 
 Never-the-less, B'Mchilas Kvodo, I would have to disagree with this 
 esteemed Posek (who I believe is a Daas Yachid on this subject) as to 
 the permissiblility of doing anything in this country that is illegal.  >>

A few random thoughts:
1.Is there a connected issue of chillul hashem when a religious jew is caught 
cheating in an area where we have a bad name($) which would not be an issue 
elsewhere(speeding)?
2. One of the reasons(we may have discussed this already) given for why 
there's an azhara and an onesh by averot is that we're not allowed to say 
"fine, I'll do the avera and take the punishment". Does this hold by dina 
d'mlchuta(absent the chillul hashem issue)?
3. Is there a reason no one names the posek? If he holds this way through 
sincere analysis(as I would think he does) , why the fear of identifying him?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

********************


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